Encore Non-Cat Overfires

Mike from Athens said:

Elk, you tried to tell me numerous times that the XL DW cat model could be used with a 6" flue? You had a convincing argument, and then another member pointed out that you were wrong? Who do I trust now? Why the hell would you pass on info that you were making up? PARTIAL CREDIBILITY LOSS..

Click to expand...

Mike...he made a mistake...get over it........if you or I paid for the advice on this forum, we'd have a basis to groan....we didn't and therefore we don't..... Also, Elk has probably forgotten more about stoves than either you or I have ever learned, even though we're BOTH engineers.....I say to cut Elk a break......

Mike from Athens said:

No more from me on this subject. Too many people ready to jump in and start bashing people, knowledge, and stoves they know little or nothing about.

Click to expand...

You mean too many people bashing Elk....gotcha.....LOL

Mike from Athens said:

FYI: you won't hear from me again.

Click to expand...

that a threat or a promise...LOL...just kidding

Ok...all kidding aside, I can sense your frustration...I'm NOT a VC owner (own a Jotul C450 but WWL was next in line) but I do think they make very good stoves. However, that said, I've also read the thread here (and took your advice and read your previous thread...very interesting) and, in my opinion, I think VC "missed the boat" here by not even acknowledging the draft issue and by saying glowing parts are normal......I, like you, am an engineer and if I were in the stove business and heard about "glowing parts" the first thing that comes to mind is "too much air".....and for someone to say that glowing parts are normal when the manual says it indicates an overfire, and then tell customers they don't recommend dampers, well, then, IMHTO (in my humble technical opinion), that's plain old b*&&^%$t. And someone mentioned this earlier but the damper has a similar effect to reducing the chimney height so if a damper reduces a 25 ft chimney to effectively draw, for example, equivalent to a 20 ft chimney and if that supposedly voids a warranty, then what about the owner of a 20 ft chimney with NO damper.......his warranty certain-ally isn't void so why would the person with the 25ft chimney have a voided warranty because he used a damper that made his stove draw like it was connected to a 20 ft chimney? Answer: it shouldn't..... Bottom line: a stoves performance is heavily determined by draft conditions and for companies to not even be willing to address this at all is, well, you fill it in.........that said, VC needs to do better on this but I still think they make fine stoves overall and they did resolve the problem. I would have however asked for an extended warranty....the stove did technically overfire many times and I think the owner said that the air leak in the ashpan was VC's responsibility.............i.e., segway into "I want an extended warranty"......

So, how is the new stove working?

Regards from you "neighbor up North" in the Dayton area...

Roospike said:

your missing the point ..................

The point is: the fist thing a lot of people tell someone is "O' You need a damper" when 99% of the time its another issue all together.

Ya'll are bringing in 40' chimney stacks and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Now if you want to talk about 40'-50' chimneys than that fine in another thread that may be the case but when the first thing that is thrown out there to an issue is "DAMPER" then that is wrong. Most of the time its another issue all together as proof as we have seen many time on this forum.

I'm not saying a damper isn't ever needed , but there's a time and a place and when one is told out of the box ya need a damper you are misleading people from the actual issue. Just like this thread.

Click to expand...

Roo......stop preaching....we're all trying to help the patient without ever seeing or hearing him/her and that many times means there will be mis-diagnosed cases.....get over it....like I told Mike...if you're paying for the advice then you'd have a legit reason to groan...you ain't and don't.........and yes, as an engineer, draft DOES have a large bearing on how a stove operates so a damper many times is not a band-aid.........

there was a simmilar th post where the solution turned out to be one of the very first suggestions the ash door seal. Adjusting the hinge of the ash door solved the gasket fit,
Goose and I speculated that the hinge was probably knocked out of alignment in either transit, using a two wheeler and lifting the stove from the bottom of the ash pan essembly or when moving it into position the ash pand door areas was a lifting point Finally It could have been damaged by removing the bottom shipping crate. . We think the hinge of the ash door got tweaked and caused it not to seal properly and caues th a masive air leak. When the dollar bill test was applied for some reason it was never done around the hinge position.

Once the seal was restored the inline damper was not needed. To address Cast question there are chikmney conditions that draft too strong and no stove will over come that without means to reduce the draft conditions MSG in his altitude has to deal with this all the time I agree with his solution installation of an inline damper

elkimmeg said:

there was a simmilar th post where the solution turned out to be one of the very first suggestions the ash door seal. Adjusting the hinge of the ash door solved the gasket fit,
Goose and I speculated that the hinge was probably knocked out of alignment in either transit, using a two wheeler and lifting the stove from the bottom of the ash pan essembly or when moving it into position the ash pand door areas was a lifting point Finally It could have been damaged by removing the bottom shipping crate. . We think the hinge of the ash door got tweaked and caused it not to seal properly and caues th a masive air leak. When the dollar bill test was applied for some reason it was never done around the hinge position.

Once the seal was restored the inline damper was not needed. To address Cast question there are chikmney conditions that draft too strong and no stove will over come that without means to reduce the draft conditions MSG in his altitude has to deal with this all the time I agree with his solution installation of an inline damper

Click to expand...

Right on Elk....my point though was that when people on this forum try to help diagnose a problem (or receive help), it's almost certianally without being able to see the stove in question....it's "free tech help at a distance" with a caveat of "free advice isn't always correct so people shouldn't groan when it's not 100% accurate"...........if they were paying for the advice and it turned out to be wrong, well then, there's a reason to groan....but not when we all get/give advice for FREE.....LOL.........

Yeah, no one should ever use Microsoft as a good example of anything - except coercion!

Site is running FreeBSD, I use all Mac products.....and give exactly zero dollars to MS for anything. That stuff is overpriced and, as Go says, it is all hacked together attempting to mimic what UNIX (BSD), etc. already does. Of course, this stuff was all put together by a bunch of longhairs at University of Ca. Berkeley...This forum and many other parts of the site are run on Expression Engine - you can see the link at bottom of page. It is also based on free software (PHP. MYSQL), which is quite powerful stuff...used by Yahoo, etc. to run their servers! I think Google uses Linux although I will have to check it out. I doubt that any of these progressive New Media companies use MS stuff for web serving.

BSD stands for Berkeley Software Distribution. The Mac system is also based on BSD.

If you want to thank someone for the net, there are a lot of folks who did it - none of them at MS....but Bill Joy is my hero!
http://www.engin.umich.edu/alumni/engineer/04SS/achievements/advances.html#joy

I've always compared VC to Mercedes (I had one) - lots of parts, over-engineered and luxury. That doesn't mean that people don't buy them - in fact, if Mercedes sold cars for the same prices as most competitors - as VC does - they would sell a ton. Heck, I'd buy another one even though my last one (Marthas C280) was a dog. Main reason I don't is that I don't really drive much!

DE is correct, however, that this is no more of an American company than Honda or Toyota. Doesn't matter to me, just stating the facts. I rarely make a buying decision on country of origin, especially when many us car brands are made in canada and mexico while japanese brands are made in ohio and kentucy!

Webmaster said:

Yeah, no one should ever use Microsoft as a good example of anything - except coercion!

Site is running FreeBSD, I use all Mac products.....and give exactly zero dollars to MS for anything. That stuff is overpriced and, as Go says, it is all hacked together attempting to mimic what UNIX (BSD), etc. already does. Of course, this stuff was all put together by a bunch of longhairs at University of Ca. Berkeley...This forum and many other parts of the site are run on Expression Engine - you can see the link at bottom of page. It is also based on free software (PHP. MYSQL), which is quite powerful stuff...used by Yahoo, etc. to run their servers! I think Google uses Linux although I will have to check it out. I doubt that any of these progressive New Media companies use MS stuff for web serving.

BSD stands for Berkeley Software Distribution. The Mac system is also based on BSD.

If you want to thank someone for the net, there are a lot of folks who did it - none of them at MS....but Bill Joy is my hero!
http://www.engin.umich.edu/alumni/engineer/04SS/achievements/advances.html#joy

I've always compared VC to Mercedes (I had one) - lots of parts, over-engineered and luxury. That doesn't mean that people don't buy them - in fact, if Mercedes sold cars for the same prices as most competitors - as VC does - they would sell a ton. Heck, I'd buy another one even though my last one (Marthas C280) was a dog. Main reason I don't is that I don't really drive much!

DE is correct, however, that this is no more of an American company than Honda or Toyota. Doesn't matter to me, just stating the facts. I rarely make a buying decision on country of origin, especially when many us car brands are made in canada and mexico while japanese brands are made in ohio and kentucy!

Click to expand...

Web...we agree again...on MACs.......also, Joy graduated at Mich 3 yrs before I did...I was there in Mech Eng but didn't know of him...wasn't well known then....he is now...

Weeks ago I reported on my VC non-cat problem: The thermostat control did not provide control of the burn rate/intensity. As a reminder, I have an 8" pipe 25' tall. We are at 3000 ft elevation.

After consultation with the distributor, my dealer installed a damper. I stll cannot verify things are working properly and certainly I am less than impressed with control of this stove. I do seem to be able to slow the process down now, though stove top temps don't seem to vary more than 100 degrees while burn time is clearly longer....go figure! I installed a probe type thermometer in the stack and with the stove top at a steady indicated 500 degrees, I'm registering only 250-300 at the probe. No matter what, so far, I can't get the probe reading over 350. I would expect much higher stack temps.

Anyway, Spring is here and it is beginning to get too warm to need/ survive the stove. I may have to wait until next year to fiddle with it more. For now, I wouldn't recommend a VC non-cat stove to a prospective purchaser. It is far to problematic and touchy as to how it is operated. And, VC hasn't stepped up in this forum to address the issue other than that one "notorious" response.

Fortunately, my dealer promissed to hang in there with me into next fall and a chance to properly retest the stove. I'll keep monitoring this site though to see if VC or anyone else comes up with viable input.

Marc

As a dealer I wish I had some sort of "scanner" that would tell me what type of customer this prospective wood stove client is going to become. If I knew that they were going to be as sensitive as most of the fine folks in this thread I would definitely NOT suggest a VC or DW stove.

I would try to sell them a Lopi or Avalon. But then they would complain "but I like the features of this VC stove. I want that one. Here's my money. Don't try to talk me out of it. It's want I want!" And I would say, "excuse me, but, my scanner says you will not tolerate a long learning curve, and that you will not lift a wrench, and will expect me to be there on a moments notice to walk you through the process of starting and maintaining fire. You are better suited to this Lopi stove."

They will say, "Are you suggesting that I am uneducated? I am college educated and can figure anything out. Besides, it's a wood stove. How simple can you get? It's not as complex as software, or automobiles, or rockets. Stop try to "sell" to me and give me what I want!"

And I will say, "fine, I will happy to sell you this VC (or insert brand of your choice) if you will agree to follow my suggestions and take my lead as I walk you through the learning curve these stoves require before they operate as you are expecting. When you call me up and want me to be there immediately to help you troubleshoot your stove I want you to agree to allow me to use my knowledge and expertise to help you solve your issues. And if there is a defect in the stove, I want you to allow me to fix it or replace it, at my cost, without accusing me of some nefarious business technique and attributing all manner of crooked business practices to the manufacturer. I want you to admit that this is a wood stove, wherein a fire takes place on a regular basis, and that fire and heat have a tendency to break things. In short, I want you to agree to be a reasonable human being who understands that I am just trying to help you get what you want and will not be held responsible for ruining your life after we find out that my original suggestion to buy a Lopi was really the best choice to begin with. Do you agree to these terms?"

They say "absolutely not! How dare you treat me this way. I am a customer!"

I will say "not my customer". And point them down the street to the other more patient stove dealers.

I swear, the more I'm in this business the more I wonder if I'll be able to put up with the demands of the consumer. One thing's for sure, I won't be selling my products and services to the cheapskates in my neighborhood. I can't afford it. Either I find enough customers who will respect my way of doing business or I will go do something else. Simply put, as a consumer, you can not expect to pay less and less for products and services and then expect excellent service and 100% perfection from everyone in the chain. In order for me to be there at a moments notice, to hire competent service people who know more than God about any subject, and carry only products that have been checked, re-checked, and re-re-checked, I would have to double and triple my prices. Will you pay $4000 for that Encore? That's what it will take to get perfect service and no-questions asked, drop-what-you're-doing personal service.

You can't have it both ways. If you are going to insist that spending $2000 for a stove entitles you to VIP service and over-the-top response from everyone, at every level in the chain of consumer products distribution, then you will continue to be disappointed and end up coming here to start getting every body worked up about brand X and their terrible customer service. In this world of consumerism you cannot pay enough to get that kind of service. It simply is not available. So, reason would dictate that there is going to be an uncomfortable and prolonged exchange when something goes wrong in the process. Things are so tightly budgeted, in order to give the consumer the lowest price possible, there is no room for contingencies.

How much will you pay to get killer service? Why do you complain when I ask you to pay $200? $1000? I know what it costs to give this type of service. But consumers think they should get it for free? Somethings gotta give.

To sum up (please!), if you want your dealerto be perfect, pay him. Don't expect to get killer service paying market prices for your consumer products. Most of you won't get it. There are not enough dealers who are capable of killer service, and even fewer who are inclined to offer it. A few of you may get, if you pay for it. Otherwise, be content to call more than once, wait for the technician, wait for the decision from the boss, wait for the "repair or replace" decision.

Rant over. Flame on.

Webmaster said:

Yeah, no one should ever use Microsoft as a good example of anything - except coercion!

Site is running FreeBSD, I use all Mac products.....and give exactly zero dollars to MS for anything. That stuff is overpriced and, as Go says, it is all hacked together attempting to mimic what UNIX (BSD), etc. already does. Of course, this stuff was all put together by a bunch of longhairs at University of Ca. Berkeley...This forum and many other parts of the site are run on Expression Engine - you can see the link at bottom of page. It is also based on free software (PHP. MYSQL), which is quite powerful stuff...used by Yahoo, etc. to run their servers! I think Google uses Linux although I will have to check it out. I doubt that any of these progressive New Media companies use MS stuff for web serving.

BSD stands for Berkeley Software Distribution. The Mac system is also based on BSD.

If you want to thank someone for the net, there are a lot of folks who did it - none of them at MS....but Bill Joy is my hero!
http://www.engin.umich.edu/alumni/engineer/04SS/achievements/advances.html#joy

I've always compared VC to Mercedes (I had one) - lots of parts, over-engineered and luxury. That doesn't mean that people don't buy them - in fact, if Mercedes sold cars for the same prices as most competitors - as VC does - they would sell a ton. Heck, I'd buy another one even though my last one (Marthas C280) was a dog. Main reason I don't is that I don't really drive much!

DE is correct, however, that this is no more of an American company than Honda or Toyota. Doesn't matter to me, just stating the facts. I rarely make a buying decision on country of origin, especially when many us car brands are made in canada and mexico while japanese brands are made in ohio and kentucy!

Click to expand...

Google primarily runs on Linux, and has been the basis of some heated debates in the Free Software community concerning some of their browser based applications - if the code runs on their servers, but the results appear on your machine, does that count as "distributing" the software, with GPL required source code availability... Nobody has been fighting it that hard though, as Google is otherwise very supportive and puts a good bit of it's profit into supporting Free Software. Along with high profile stuff like the "Google Summer of Code" projects, where they subsidize several hundred college students to work on various projects, they also have a policy where their regular employees are encouraged to spend a certain amount of their company time each week on Free Software projects.

Linux and BSD are used to run an ever increasing amount of the Internet, mostly taking over from the proprietary Unices.

What gets really amusing is to poke around the various Microsoft owned sites - NetCraft who studies such things reports that MS is very poor at "eating it's own dogfood" as a very high percentage of MS owned sites are running on boxes that do NOT use MS based OS's - IIRC Hotmail runs on Solaris, and the main MS support site runs on some other proprietary Unix, there are even some Linux boxes in their web mix, but very few MS IIS boxes... Hardly a suprise, they tell us that security is important to them, so why would they want to run Windows?

Gooserider

seaken:

Thanks for the post, very plainly put. Right on!

ernie