Just when I thought my mind was made up.

mepellet · Aug 30, 2013

Don2222 said:
Here is the thread on Hooking up a T-Stat to a Harman Stove.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/harman-with-thermostat.106536/#post-1390087

If you read through it, you may find this answer to your question. Most people set the stove to auto to avoid the 4 blink.
"If the stove is a manual ignition model, or an auto-igniting unit with the selector switch set to manual, the stove will go into the 4-blink status when the thermostat opens (is satisfied) and the stove will go to a minimum burn and stay there until the thermostat closes (calls for heat). When the thermostat closes, the 4 blink status will reset automatically."

Here is a quote from MePellet, why not ask him how it works if you do not know Scott?

Here is a better thread describing the hookup of a skytech thermostat and how it works.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ive-to-harmans-suggested-method-as-wel.74677/

Don, I think you were missing Scott's point. He is correct. The stove will not RAMP UP or RAMP DOWN. When the dial on the stove is set higher (say 90) than the skytech thermostat setpoint (say 75) and the room temp is lower than both, the stove will essentially go to high fire because it thinks you want to reach the control boards setpoint (90). Then when the room temp reaches the skytech thermostat setpoint, the stove will either shut off if in auto mode, or go down to a maint. burn if in manual mode.

The stove has no way of COMMUNICATING with the skytech thermostat. The skytech thermostat is basically acting as a switch inline with the room sensing probe.

Don2222 · Aug 30, 2013

mepellet said:
Here is a better thread describing the hookup of a skytech thermostat and how it works.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ive-to-harmans-suggested-method-as-wel.74677/

Don, I think you were missing Scott's point. He is correct. The stove will not RAMP UP or RAMP DOWN. When the dial on the stove is set higher (say 90) than the skytech thermostat setpoint (say 75) and the room temp is lower than both, the stove will essentially go to high fire because it thinks you want to reach the control boards setpoint (90). Then when the room temp reaches the skytech thermostat setpoint, the stove will either shut off if in auto mode, or go down to a maint. burn if in manual mode.

The stove has no way of COMMUNICATING with the skytech thermostat. The skytech thermostat is basically acting as a switch inline with the room sensing probe.

Hi MePellet

Thanks very much for your help explaining that.
That is the only part that does not work the same with the Skytech T-Stat.

The skytech makes the Harman stove work auto-hi/lo or auto-on/off like most other pellet stoves! LOL

MountainSean · Aug 30, 2013

Don2222 said:
Hi MePellet

Thanks very much for your help explaining that.
That is the only part that does not work the same with the Skytech T-Stat.

The skytech makes the Harman stove work auto-hi/lo or auto-on/off like most other pellet stoves! LOL

Which in essence removes one of the best selling points of the Harman line. No variance in a temperature. You set it where you want and the stove keeps your house within 1 degree of that. No ups and downs.

Personally I like a thermostat better than that function and would love to see Harman come up with something giving you the option of controlling the stove a little better like Skytechs can do with programmed times.... Maybe the 52i can, I haven't looked much at it yet though I plan to today.

IHATEPROPANE · Aug 30, 2013

MountainSean said:
Which in essence removes one of the best selling points of the Harman line. No variance in a temperature. You set it where you want and the stove keeps your house within 1 degree of that. No ups and downs.

Personally I like a thermostat better than that function and would love to see Harman come up with something giving you the option of controlling the stove a little better like Skytechs can do with programmed times.... Maybe the 52i can, I haven't looked much at it yet though I plan to today.

Maybe I am missing something. My stove thermostat keeps it within one degree as well??? Just a regular old thermostat. I thought the difference was Harman's choose the feed rate to best reach desired setpoint where I have to basically set the max

smwilliamson · Aug 30, 2013

I have all you folks pm'ing me to stop arguing in the forum with Don, I hear your voices and will try to be better, but for the record, this is a classic example of Don basically trolling the threads to pick fights with me. I say one thing and its an argument from the get go, mepellet contributes and there is no argument. I don't know everything here but Don is consistently diverting threads and interjecting opinions. Pm responses if you must and we will stop diverting threads.

Don2222 · Aug 30, 2013

smwilliamson said:
I have all you folks pm'ing me to stop arguing in the forum with Don, I hear your voices and will try to be better, but for the record, this is a classic example of Don basically trolling the threads to pick fights with me. I say one thing and its an argument from the get go, mepellet contributes and there is no argument. I don't know everything here but Don is consistently diverting threads and interjecting opinions. Pm responses if you must and we will stop diverting threads.

Scott, W are giving technical info to help people, then you start with your business and being disagreeable. There is no need to argue, just provide the technical information and above all if you do not know something then do not make up an answer!

smwilliamson · Aug 30, 2013

mepellet · Aug 30, 2013

smwilliamson said:
I have all you folks pm'ing me to stop arguing in the forum with Don, I hear your voices and will try to be better, but for the record, this is a classic example of Don basically trolling the threads to pick fights with me. I say one thing and its an argument from the get go, mepellet contributes and there is no argument. I don't know everything here but Don is consistently diverting threads and interjecting opinions. Pm responses if you must and we will stop diverting threads.

Oh man... Now I am in the middle of all of this.....

I tried to avoid it. I certainly am not here to argue or pick fights. Just paying it forward because so many people (both Scott & Don included) have helped me out a lot. I try to help and contribute when my I understand something. Hope I haven't pi$$ed anyone off....

Don2222 · Aug 30, 2013

mepellet said:
Oh man... Now I am in the middle of all of this..... I tried to avoid it. I certainly am not here to argue or pick fights. Just paying it forward because so many people (both Scott & Don included) have helped me out a lot. I try to help and contribute when my I understand something. Hope I haven't pi$$ed anyone off....

It's ok mepellet, you did the right thing and provided needed technical information that is a help to everyone here. We thank you.

jtakeman · Aug 30, 2013

mepellet said:
Oh man... Now I am in the middle of all of this..... I tried to avoid it. I certainly am not here to argue or pick fights. Just paying it forward because so many people (both Scott & Don included) have helped me out a lot. I try to help and contribute when my I understand something. Hope I haven't pi$$ed anyone off....

Your from central Maine, So technically you are in the middle aye?

Your fine bud, We still like ya. Even though your on SMW's side!

smwilliamson said:
Bye

I've heard you say that before? ;hm

At least I'm not the cause of all the drama. Whew!

IHATEPROPANE · Aug 30, 2013

jtakeman said:
Your from central Maine, So technically you are in the middle aye?

Your fine bud, We still like ya. Even though your on SMW's side!

I've heard you say that before?

At least I'm not the cause of all the drama. Whew!

Just start an Inferno's are better than Oakies thread....that will be sure to get some responses lol

Don and Scott...you are both valued members and hope you both stick around. Just don't bicker back and forth and pump your businesses.

Ozymandias · Aug 30, 2013

I didn't realize that my initial post would cause so much turmoil :eek:

. I appreciate everyone's comments. There is no need for any of these statements to be taken personally, nor is there a reason to take shots at any other member. I participate in this forum to learn about pellets and pellet stoves. Like most written text, posts should be viewed critically and with an understanding that personal opinion will likely be interjected to some extent. This is why I take the time to read the responses of many and to the extent possible evaluate products on my own so that I can come to my own conclusion and make an informed decision.

It is my hope that Don and Scott continue to participate in these discussions as they both bring a lot to the table and add value to the forum and threads within.

Ozymandias · Aug 30, 2013

Now to get this thread a back on track. The M55 and the p52i are both very nice inserts. Considering the cost of parts and labor as well as the frequency of required service/repair, do you all think one would cost more to keep running than the other?

jtakeman · Aug 30, 2013

Ozymandias said:
Now to get this thread a back on track. The M55 and the p52i are both very nice inserts. Considering the cost of parts and labor as well as the frequency of required service/repair, do you all think one would cost more to keep running than the other?

My only complaint with Enviro is their replacement parts cost is expensive. Reason is they are unique and not run of the mill items. Otherwise I am very happy with my Enviro. I saved a lot over the Harman P68 at the time of purchase.

Since this is going in your living area. The noise factor hasn't been mentioned. IMHO the Enviro will be a lot quiter if your going to be sitting in the same room with it. You might want to hear them both run if noise is an issue?

A few other things to consider are ash pan size and hopper size.

Ozymandias · Aug 30, 2013

Since this is going in your living area. The noise factor hasn't been mentioned. IMHO the Enviro will be a lot quiter if your going to be sitting in the same room with it. You might want to hear them both run if noise is an issue?

jtakeman, very good point. Noise will certainly be an issue. I was assuming that with the two fans running at lower RPM's the P52i would be quieter than the first generation Accentra. That being said, I would want to hear one to confirm. Do you see a benefit (sound wise) to a bottom feeding system vs a top feeding or does a top feeding system only make that "tinking" noise when the pot is empty?

jtakeman · Aug 30, 2013

Ozymandias said:
jtakeman, very good point. Noise will certainly be an issue. I was assuming that with the two fans running at lower RPM's the P52i would be quieter than the first generation Accentra. That being said, I would want to hear one to confirm. Do you see a benefit (sound wise) to a bottom feeding system vs a top feeding or does a top feeding system only make that "tinking" noise when the pot is empty?

M55 has an agitator so the sound doesn't change much. I kind of got used to the tinkling noise and its not that load.

smwilliamson · Aug 30, 2013

What bothers me about the M55 is you cannot adjust the room blower without adjusting the heat range. Harman allows them controlled separately. I think the Harman is a better build, less parts. It also looks as if you may be able to clean the flue without pulling it out.

jtakeman · Aug 30, 2013

smwilliamson said:
What bothers me about the M55 is you cannot adjust the room blower without adjusting the heat range. Harman allows them controlled separately. I think the Harman is a better build, less parts. It also looks as if you may be able to clean the flue without pulling it out.

The fan speed is matched to the heat range to make it easier for the end user. More a set and forget IMHO. For about 20 bucks(the cost of a 120V relay and rheastat), I can make it variable if you really want one?

Are you sure your selling Enviro's?

IHATEPROPANE · Aug 30, 2013

smwilliamson said:
What bothers me about the M55 is you cannot adjust the room blower without adjusting the heat range. Harman allows them controlled separately. I think the Harman is a better build, less parts. It also looks as if you may be able to clean the flue without pulling it out.

Does the m55 stay on high fan for a period if time after going from a higher heat setting to a lower one? My stove does not and always felt it would be better if it did. Because on high my stove gets Friggin how and no way could my fan on low remove enough heat.

briansol · Aug 30, 2013

my stove is the one setting for everything, and I hate it. I wish I had more control over it.
often I wish I could just get more 'blow power' out of the unit to better circulate, without getting hotter.

MountainSean · Aug 30, 2013

IHATEPROPANE said:
Maybe I am missing something. My stove thermostat keeps it within one degree as well??? Just a regular old thermostat. I thought the difference was Harman's choose the feed rate to best reach desired setpoint where I have to basically set the max

It's a fine point in the difference. A regular thermostat with most stoves functions in two fashions. The first is on/off. When the temp is reached the stove goes into a shut down cycle and turns off then starts again once the thermostat calls for heat. This method uses less pellets but is harder on igniter. The second would be referred to as Hi/Lo mode. When the thermostat is satisfied the stove turns down to bare minimum level to maintain the fire. This method uses a bit more pellets but saves your igniter.
The Harman stove when using the room probe never really turns the stove on high or down low. It constantly makes small adjustments to the fire to keep the temperature as constant as possible while using a steady amount of pellets.

Most people when they have their stoves running off a thermostat have a swing temp of 2-4 degrees making your house spike a little bit even past that. When your thermostat calls for heat your stove still has to ramp up it's heat which takes anything from a few minutes from a low maintenance fire to 15 minutes from a dead cold start causing a larger (but still small) temperature difference than you get using the Harman room probe which maintains the same temperature constantly. Personally I prefer the wireless, or wired programmable remotes that you can set to have your stove start or stop at different temps at different times of the day but that difference in the constant steady temperature rather than a several degree constant swinging temperature is what Harman likes to use as one of their selling points.

IHATEPROPANE · Aug 30, 2013

MountainSean said:
It's a fine point in the difference. A regular thermostat with most stoves functions in two fashions. The first is on/off. When the temp is reached the stove goes into a shut down cycle and turns off then starts again once the thermostat calls for heat. This method uses less pellets but is harder on igniter. The second would be referred to as Hi/Lo mode. When the thermostat is satisfied the stove turns down to bare minimum level to maintain the fire. This method uses a bit more pellets but saves your igniter.
The Harman stove when using the room probe never really turns the stove on high or down low. It constantly makes small adjustments to the fire to keep the temperature as constant as possible while using a steady amount of pellets.

Most people when they have their stoves running off a thermostat have a swing temp of 2-4 degrees making your house spike a little bit even past that. When your thermostat calls for heat your stove still has to ramp up it's heat which takes anything from a few minutes from a low maintenance fire to 15 minutes from a dead cold start causing a larger (but still small) temperature difference than you get using the Harman room probe which maintains the same temperature constantly. Personally I prefer the wireless, or wired programmable remotes that you can set to have your stove start or stop at different temps at different times of the day but that difference in the constant steady temperature rather than a several degree constant swinging temperature is what Harman likes to use as one of their selling points.

Thanks for clarifying. I could see how in on/off mode how the Harman would be better and not over heat the room. However in hi/lo with a thermostat with a 1degree swing I would bet the results are very similar.

Don2222 · Aug 30, 2013

jtakeman said:
The fan speed is matched to the heat range to make it easier for the end user. More a set and forget IMHO. For about 20 bucks(the cost of a 120V relay and rheastat), I can make it variable if you really want one?

Are you sure your selling Enviro's?

The digital control panels increase the room blower speed when the heat level is increase was done by design so the user cannot overfire the stove. On the Englander stoves the room blower can be set to a higher speed than the heat level but CANNOT be set to a lower speed than the heat level.

I had an Enviro EF-2 with a blown Hi Limit switch because it may have been overfired.

jtakeman · Aug 30, 2013

IHATEPROPANE said:
Does the m55 stay on high fan for a period if time after going from a higher heat setting to a lower one? My stove does not and always felt it would be better if it did. Because on high my stove gets Friggin how and no way could my fan on low remove enough heat.

My Omega goes straight to low, But the heat exchanger is massive and I see minimal heat rise. What it does do is stop feeding pellets for a couple of cycles to let the flame die down.
I'm almost certain/sure the M55 has the same program, Just different feed rates and blower voltages for the smaller unit.

IHATEPROPANE said:
Thanks for clarifying. I could see how in on/off mode how the Harman would be better and not over heat the room. However in hi/lo with a thermostat with a 1degree swing I would bet the results are very similar.

If I could find a stat with a swing of .25(1/2 a degree total) and I am sure I ccould hold the temp right at 72 ::F

all day long when its in high/low mode. I prefer a swing of at least 1 ::F

for spring/fall shoulder days to ease the work load on the igniter.

smwilliamson · Aug 30, 2013

Don2222 said:
The digital control panels increase the room blower speed when the heat level is increase was done by design so the user cannot overfire the stove. On the Englander stoves the room blower can be set to a higher speed than the heat level but CANNOT be set to a lower speed than the heat level.

I had an Enviro EF-2 with a blown Hi Limit switch because it may have been overfired.

So put a fan switch on to override it like every other stove they make... But give me the option

Just when I thought my mind was made up.

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