Need help - improperly installed wood stove insert, need to start over

DSK · Sep 17, 2013

I have had several folks review the install of my Napoleon 1402 in a Majestic ESF-IIA pre fab firebox (circa 1979). Most agree it "probably" is safe, but can't officially say that. All agree the install should NOT have been done the way that it was - i.e., cuts made into the metal to provide clearance, removal of louvres that were subsequently covered, etc.).

I find myself needing (for peace of mind if not compliance with install instructions) to fix this situation. Ideally I would like to save as much of the stone veneer work I did on the interior wall all around the Napoleon. From my many discussions, it seems as though my best bet is to rip out the insert/firebox and replace with a high efficiency, Zero Clearance fireplace. The fireplace is on an exterior wall / exterior stick framed chase.

Other thoughts?
Any way I can preserve the bulk of my interior stonework? I am hoping I can cut out the framing from behind and reframe without destroying too much. Then cut away w/ev needs to be removed of the stone/lath/backer.

Recommendations on the ZC fireplace that has the lowest framing height requirements?

Thanks for your willingness to share all your expertise.

begreen · Sep 17, 2013

Take a look at RSF and BIS fireplaces and maybe the Pacific Energy FP30?

DSK · Sep 17, 2013

Thanks begreen. I take it that you agree replacing with high-efficiency ZC fireplace is the best bet?

begreen · Sep 17, 2013

Yes, that was clear as soon as you mentioned that the Majestic had been hacked. The other option is to tear out higher and install a freestanding alcove stove.

DSK · Sep 17, 2013

Thanks again. HOw about one more option. I'd like to be able to re-use the insert if possible. I have access from the exterior. Could I pull the insert, rip out the Majestic, put a new ZC firebox in with the correct ventilation and then slide the insert back into the new firebox?

DSK · Sep 17, 2013

That is, not spring for the high efficiency firebox, but use one that costs 1/6th , but is still safe to burn in

begreen · Sep 17, 2013

Possible if the chimney pipe spec, height and location is the same, but that could be hard to match. Not sure.

DSK · Sep 25, 2013

OK, after 2 chimney sweeps have officially deemed the install as "not right", I need to get this figured out.

I am seriously considering a wood stove at this point. I built the hearth out about 27" for the insert. Wood stoves require 16" in front, so that leaves only 9 inches of hearth. Extending the hearth is not a good option given limitations in floor space, so I am trying to figure out if I can rip out the prefab and reframe in there with steel studs/durock, then reduce clearances via heat shield to keep the opening as small as possible and cover with brick. The front of the current set up is nice drystack stone and I'd like to keep as much as possible. NFPA says w/ properly installed heat shield the celing clearance can be reduced 50% to a minimum of 18".

I've seen some examples on this site, but not sure how it was done (unless it was a masonry chimney, cement board, i.e. no combustibles) with such low clearances above the stove.

I guess I am proposing something between a masonry chimney and mini-alcove. Is that possible? Do you have suggestions on stoves that would work particularly well?

begreen · Sep 25, 2013

The clearance above the stove in an alcove installation is critical. Very few stoves will allow less than an 84" ceiling height there. Also, NFPA clearance reductions are only permissible if thus stated in the manual. Some stove companies will allow a reduction, but some do not. However, that may not be an issue. There are modern stoves with quite tight clearances including the freestanding version of your insert.

I feel for your dilemma. I made a custom mantel together with an expensive tile face for our fireplace. It looked great. But I couldn't get around the fact that the fireplace was old and the living room layout was somewhat backward when we had a nice view out the windows. My procrastination was resolved when an earthquake rotated the top of the chimney 45 degrees. I took out everything a few years later. The mortar was dust in many places.

Ed Williams · Sep 25, 2013

DSK said:
I have had several folks review the install of my Napoleon 1402 in a Majestic ESF-IIA pre fab firebox (circa 1979). Most agree it "probably" is safe, but can't officially say that. All agree the install should NOT have been done the way that it was - i.e., cuts made into the metal to provide clearance, removal of louvres that were subsequently covered, etc.).

I find myself needing (for peace of mind if not compliance with install instructions) to fix this situation. Ideally I would like to save as much of the stone veneer work I did on the interior wall all around the Napoleon. From my many discussions, it seems as though my best bet is to rip out the insert/firebox and replace with a high efficiency, Zero Clearance fireplace. The fireplace is on an exterior wall / exterior stick framed chase.

Other thoughts?
Any way I can preserve the bulk of my interior stonework? I am hoping I can cut out the framing from behind and reframe without destroying too much. Then cut away w/ev needs to be removed of the stone/lath/backer.

Recommendations on the ZC fireplace that has the lowest framing height requirements?

Thanks for your willingness to share all your expertise.

Hi.
I would go in from the outside, discard the ZC fireplace, and following Mfg and NFPA 211 clearances, build anew with steel framing and cement board, vented to allow heat circulation/escape back into the room, with the insert sitting where you want it. The Zero clearance fireplace then becomes irrelevant, which is a good thing, as installing any insert not listed for it, or modifying it, allows your insurance company an out should there ever be a problem. Also, you need to ensure that your chimney is rated 103HT to properly serve the insert. This approach should let you keep most of your stone work, other than where the vents go.

begreen · Sep 25, 2013

An insert can only sit in a masonry or approved ZC fireplace. What you are suggesting is entirely untested, against code and the mfg. docs and potentially very unsafe.

DSK · Sep 25, 2013

Yes, I investigated doing a rebuld from the back, but to rebuild a masonry chimney was way too much for the budget. Puting in another ZC fireplace and then putting the insert back in just felt like I would still be left with a sub optimal setup and would cost quite a bit to get there. I figured at that point....just do it right and put ing a ZC EPA fireplace.......or figure out a way to get a freestanding stove in.

begreen, agree horizontal and back dimensions I am fine with various stoves. It is the fact that I was trying to salvage the stonework on the front wall which is on 2x4s. I think you are suggesting to build the alcove height to full height, which would require me to rip out the stone, right?

Also considering looking at a side only loading stove. I was looking at the Woodstock Fireview. With 20" depth and 8" front clearance, it could sit almost entirely on my existing hearth. I have the 16" to the side covered. Are there other stoves with smaller depth that are side load only?

begreen · Sep 25, 2013

Putting in a modern high quality EPA ZC fireplace may be the best bet here if you are trying to keep the stone facade. There is a world of difference between the old Majestic and a good unit like a BIS Tradition or RSF Opel. And you would have the added option of ducting some of the heat to another part of the house. There would be no need to keep the insert in this case.

DSK · Oct 7, 2014

A long belated thank you to all who helped me out with this....particularly begreen and webby3650 (on an earlier thread). After trying to convince myself on a lot of suboptimal approaches I decided nothing could trump the utmost safety for the family. I ended up yanking the insert and pulling off the chase sheathing so I could rip out the prefab. It took some delicate touch (mini sledge and grinder- ha), but I preserved most of the stonework and had to do minimal reframing to get the correct opening, using aluminum studs. I did end up having to fix other framing problems that had nothing to do with the fireplace as well. But now, the chase is dry, insulated and drywalled (as well as properly supported).....brought inside the buidling envelope. I put in a KozyHeat high efficiency fireplace with the Class A chimney and it burned/heated like a champ through the worst winter PA has seen in a long time. Visual inspections in the winter indicated it was burning great. Just got up on the roof to do the Fall chimney sweep and got about a cup of creosote out after burning 5 cords.

We are out several thousand dollars, but it feels good to have it done right.

humpin iron · Oct 12, 2014

THANK YOU for doing it RIGHT. Some of the stuff I see on these sites scare the $%@* outta me. Some of the advise is soooo friggin wrong and people take it "as gospel, cause it came from someone who had no $$ gain". Thanks again

begreen · Oct 12, 2014

Thanks for the update DSK and well done. The Kozy is a good heater. Did you duct out some of the heat for better distribution? Any possibility of a picture or two of that beauty?

DSK · Oct 12, 2014

Sure thing. This is what the install looks like. Was able to preserve the majority of the stonework and the blend in to the new opening that I framed in.

We didn't duct in the heat, but have 2 ceiling fans in that room that move the air quite well. It keeps the living space toasty and the bedrooms cooler- which we like.

Thanks again for all the patience and insight!

begreen · Oct 12, 2014

Thanks! That looks great! Where did that big frying pan get used?

DSK · Oct 12, 2014

Ha, frying pan is just decoration. Don't believe it ever saw any use.

Need help - improperly installed wood stove insert, need to start over

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