Need help: Unemployed, but have a kent tile stove. Now what?

gldntrout · Oct 31, 2013

So here's the short story:

My girlfriend and I were both laid-off recently, within a few months of each other. To save money, I rented my house out, and moved into her's (for love if she asks, but really because mine was more marketable). We now live in her 1920's stone ranch house. 1 story - aprox 1500 sqft, with a semi-finished basement. Heating bills (Natural Gas radiator) in winter are in the $300+/mo range (old house/crap insulation), so obviously looking to find an alternative

My house (the one that I rented out) had an old wood stove in the basement that I had cleaned the holy bat-snot out of, but had, literally, never used.

So, I went and pulled the wood stove out, and now it's sitting on my porch. After lurking on this site, I now know it's a Kent Tile Wood Stove, circa 1985.

Currently, our fireplace has a vented NG log-set in it. I'd like to take the log-set out and replace it with the Kent wood-stove. I've got plenty of clearance on all sides, and the original chimney is the only decent place to run a wood-stove in this house.

I'm thinking that I need to have a plumber come and pull that out and secure the NG lines, then I'll put the Kent in the fireplace. Install double-lined chimney pipe to the top of the existing chimney (cap etc), and probably a blower (suggestions appreciated).

What am I missing, and what should I be looking for? Sadly, budget is a huge issue for us, so I'm stuck with the Kent Tile (even though I know an insert would be better). I'm ok with making an investment to make it safe and warm, but I can't afford to waste money.

EatenByLimestone · Oct 31, 2013

How about wood? If you have to buy your wood, the savings will be much less. Also figure in some cleaning (chimney brushing) as the wood will have a good deal of water still in it and the stove won't be burning the smoke. I think the tile stoves were supposed to be fairly clean burners when run with dry wood and some experience.

Often, you can get a better return on investment if the first step you take is to seal up all the small holes that air leaks out of the house. This can often be done with a few tubes of caulk. Then work on insulating the existing house. If you want to burn wood, it might be worth while to do the research, get some wood on hand and burn next year.

Matt

jeff_t · Oct 31, 2013

The Kent Tile Fire was a pretty revolutionary stove. Read up on it in this thread. It is pretty detailed.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/kent-tile-fire-and-sherwood-stoves.60702/

An insulated liner in the chimney is what you need.

Neat looking house, nice, big fireplace.

branchburner · Oct 31, 2013

Welcome to the forums.

As a supplemental source of dry wood, you should be able to scrounge free hardwood pallets and lumber scraps on craigslist (don't burn the small cutoffs exclusively, only for starting fires and mixing in with larger splits). You may also be able to find fully seasoned branch-wood in the 3" to 6" range that is rejected by others as "not real firewood" -- you will find it produces BTUs that are very real if the wood is very dry.

Rather than buying a blower, try placing a $10 fan at the base of the stove, pointing into the hearth -- this will bring cool floor into the area behind the stove and help it flow out over the top. For the rest of the house, a fan or two in doorways blowing cool air toward the warm room.

Even with the stove as far out of the fireplace as possible, that exterior stone chimney is going to try to rob as much heat as it can -- you are going to want some kind of blockoff plate to help prevent that. Good luck!

Nick Mystic · Oct 31, 2013

Since you say money is tight it would make the most sense for you to do as much of the work on your own if you are handy with that sort of thing. You should start by cleaning the chimney and fireplace. There's no telling what you'll find in there. It could be relatively clean since you've been using gas logs or it could have decades of creosote built up in the chimney and smoke chamber. You can get brushes and rods for under $100. Installing an insulated stainless steel flex liner isn't that difficult if you have a pretty straight shot through the damper assembly in the fireplace. Usually you have to remove the damper door and cut a larger opening through the damper opening, which renders the fireplace inoperative to use as a fireplace in the future. I would set the stove outside the fireplace opening as much as possible to throw the most heat into the house. Your biggest expense will be the liner kit and any hearth extension work if needed to meet clearances in front of the stove. You could get by with a budget around $600 - $700 on the liner kit if you only need 20 feet or so of liner. Good luck.

eclecticcottage · Oct 31, 2013

First, that is a beauiful house-wow!

Now...having been there done that just recently with the wood situation...

The suggestion of scavanging hardwood cut offs or pallets is a good one on a budget. We made it through two years of less than seasoned wood with ecobricks mixed with the wood, but really, anything dry enough to get hot and help the wood dry fast in the firebox so you can keep the temps up in there will work. Around here you get pallets by luck if the guys that resell them don't get them first though.

If you have the space I'd start scavanging any wood you find by the road to start building a stock if you plan to split your own. If you're buying, look for good deals-I don't know where you are, but sometimes you'll find pine/softwood pretty cheap. It burns faster but also seasons quicker-and if you're both home, reloading more often probably won't be a deal breaker. I've seen pine advertised at 1/4 or less than hardwoods, already split, because people still believe the old wives tale that it will burn your house down.

Ashful · Oct 31, 2013

I don't know your personal situation, but can say that my girlfriend (now my wife) and I were both laid off within five minutes of each other, Oct. 22, 2002. Moreover, thousands of other people who did exactly what we did, had been laid off in our area that fall, so we knew there was ZERO chance of getting new jobs in any short period of time. We handled it the same as you, her moving into my house, and just cutting expenses as drastically as we could. I knew our family on either side wouldn't let us starve or go homeless, but beyond that, nothing was known/secure. So, I don't know your exact family situation, but I've been in similar circumstances.

I would think long and hard before pursuing this wood stove thing. Your heating bill is $300 / month, which would amount to $2100/year, here. I suspect that with some insulating, plastic on windows, caulking, and very judicious use of the thermostat, you can cut that down to maybe $1500/year. Depending on your hot water hookup, and success with the wood thing, you might lower your bill to $500 for this year, meaning you saved $1000. But, I can't imagine getting this rig installed and getting yourself set up with the 3 - 4 cords of seasoned wood you're going to need, for less than $1000, this late in the game.

Long-term, heating with wood is a huge savings. But in the short term, it's going to be a loss, due to the up-front investment. You need to think short-term right now, and spend your time looking for jobs... not installing a stove! This is just my opinion, based on the very little bit of information I have on the situation.

Tenn Dave · Oct 31, 2013

Joful said:
I don't know your personal situation, but can say that my girlfriend (now my wife) and I were both laid off within five minutes of each other, Oct. 22, 2002. Moreover, thousands of other people who did exactly what we did, had been laid off in our area that fall, so we knew there was ZERO chance of getting new jobs in any short period of time. We handled it the same as you, her moving into my house, and just cutting expenses as drastically as we could. I knew our family on either side wouldn't let us starve or go homeless, but beyond that, nothing was known/secure. So, I don't know your exact family situation, but I've been in similar circumstances.

I would think long and hard before pursuing this wood stove thing. Your heating bill is $300 / month, which would amount to $2100/year, here. I suspect that with some insulating, plastic on windows, caulking, and very judicious use of the thermostat, you can cut that down to maybe $1500/year. Depending on your hot water hookup, and success with the wood thing, you might lower your bill to $500 for this year, meaning you saved $1000. But, I can't imagine getting this rig installed and getting yourself set up with the 3 - 4 cords of seasoned wood you're going to need, for less than $1000, this late in the game.

Long-term, heating with wood is a huge savings. But in the short term, it's going to be a loss, due to the up-front investment. You need to think short-term right now, and spend your time looking for jobs... not installing a stove! This is just my opinion, based on the very little bit of information I have on the situation.

Joful. I think your advice is right on the money. Top priority should be on cash flow, not long term investment.

gldntrout · Oct 31, 2013

Thank you everybody for your replies, and the compliments on the house.

It is a cool old house and has some fun things that you don't find in new construction, like a spiral staircase in the living room that goes down to the basement.

To the points above: I live in central PA, have a F-250 long bed pickup, chainsaw, and access to a bunch of private land that has beautiful seasoned hardwood. So even though it's not going to be totally seasoned, I am confident that I can find plenty of downed trees that aren't rotten to burn this winter, and standing dead that I can split and use next winter. So wood shouldn't be an issue (I was actually going to go out and start cutting this weekend). Granted the house is on a hill, so it's going to be a trail of tears to move the wood up from the driveway to the house, but my girlfriend thinks I'm part sherpa already so no worries.

@EatenByLimestone, @Joful - Regarding the house: over the last year and a half, I actually have done quite a bit of work on it already. I pumped about 18 yds of blow-in insulation into the attic, re-pointed the mortar on the outside of the house, resurfaced the flat roof, and caulked all of the windows (which desperately need to be replaced). In addition, I wrapped all of the hot water lines, cleaned the radiators (air compressor and vacuum (totally nasty) and all of the windows have plastic both on the inside and outside. Installed a new storm door etc etc. Not much more that I can do to insulate the house or make it more efficient right now (we already unplug anything that's not being used etc). I'm handy, and I like projects so fortunately, I did the more expensive projects (insulation, roof) when I had a job, so they're already done. Sadly, however, the $300/mo figure is last years bill (with most of the above improvements already done) when we weren't here the entire time.

I'm figuring that since I have the stove and can get free wood, that I'm only going to be on the hook for a plumber (NG lines), chimney sweep ( I would like a professional to look at the chimney since it's 100 years old), chimney pipe & cap (16 feet from base of fire place to 2 feet above top of chimney), and maybe building a hearth extension. So the short-term investment isn't too scary for me and I can afford to front $600-700.

Here are a couple of more pictures, so you can see what I'm working with. I'm thinking that I'm going to have to pull of the stone cap that's on the chimney already, and trim the tree above it, but otherwise the chimney looks like a straight shot and fairly easy installation.

@jeff_t - thanks for the link, lots of really good info. Makes me feel better about the old stove.

eclecticcottage · Oct 31, 2013

Ok, as far as the windows goes, check out wavyglass.org and post up on the forums. I imagine Jade will have suggestions but I'm sure others will too. There are a lot of folks that believe old windows are worth saving, and it seems you're handy enough to be able to fix them up. I am betting they are original wood sashes that can be restored and won't be nearly as bad as people think they are. There are folks here with old homes that can vouch for this!

Back to the wood-you're on a good track! Get stuff cut and split asap, and scavanging up some pallets or cut offs won't hurt. If there's standing dead pine in there, you might find it really is dry enough to burn no problem, at least we found that with beetle kill here. Stuff that's down might have been absorbing water from the dirt, so it might not be as dry as you would think.

gldntrout · Oct 31, 2013

Wow, interesting site! Had no idea that was out there. The windows are definitely a problem, but unfortunately, nothing that I'm going to be able to tackle until next spring.

I'm thinking that I'm a minimum of two weeks away from having this installed, so I'm going to try to spend the time (which I have a bunch of) doing wood. I'm going to be looking for downed trees that are off the ground to minimize the wet, rot, mushroom factor. Good idea with pallets. I'll start hitting up the big box stores (lowes, home depot, walmart etc) and see if I can grab some of theirs. Was going to grab a few anyway for the base of a wood pile until I can build something more permanent.

gldntrout · Oct 31, 2013

Even with the stove as far out of the fireplace as possible, that exterior stone chimney is going to try to rob as much heat as it can -- you are going to want some kind of blockoff plate to help prevent that. Good luck!

@branchburner - Do you have any suggestions for a blockoff plate? Not quite sure what I'm getting into for that. I'm imagining a piece of cement-board with a hold in the center that I put the chimney through to block the heat from going up the chimney, but that's just a guess.

dougand3 · Oct 31, 2013

I put a Kent Tile Fire in a relative's house where I stay often. Installed in the masonry FP with 6" liner. And I made a blower for it - 5 x 80mm computer fans in a metal bracket. Installed bracket in lower rear, fans blowing between firebox and tile, out the front. I found it worked ok - but not overwhelmingly better than just the strong convection current the stove generates. Wouldn't bother again. Try branchburner's idea of fan blowing in.

SteveKG · Oct 31, 2013

From the photo, the chimney "looks" clean. Obviously, an in-person look will tell more. But I think you can be optimistic there. Go for it, you have plenty of free time, so to speak, to work with the stove and perhaps cut down those bills for heat

jeff_t · Oct 31, 2013

You are looking at liners like this, right?
http://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/flexible-liner-kits.php

I have no experience with them, and have no idea of the best place to buy. Lots here have installed their own.

I got thru my first winter with standing dead white ash. Not the best, but better than any 'seasoned' wood I could buy.

gldntrout · Oct 31, 2013

You are looking at liners like this, right?
http://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/flexible-liner-kits.php

@jeff_t - I think I misunderstood your first post. No I wasn't looking at insulated chimney liners, I was actually going to go with chimney pipe from Lowe's
http://www.lowes.com/pd

Would I need a liner in addition to the pipe or instead of?

branchburner · Oct 31, 2013

gldntrout said:
I'm imagining a piece of cement-board with a hold in the center that I put the chimney through to block the heat from going up the chimney.

Sure, or sheet metal:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/making_a_block_off_plate/

As for venting, a single flexible stainless liner top-to-bottom within the chimney may be easier than sections of rigid pipe. It can be purchased already insulated, or you could try to get away with just insulating the bottom section and the top run above the roof line by yourself, with rock wool (or perlite, or a combo of them)... a cheaper method that may be effective but not to code,

Dave A. · Oct 31, 2013

gldntrout said:
Would I need a liner in addition to the pipe or instead of?

Instead of. SS Liner is the typical means of venting a stove or insert through chimney inside a fireplace.

gldntrout · Oct 31, 2013

branchburner said:
Sure, or sheet metal:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/making_a_block_off_plate/

As for venting, a single flexible stainless liner top-to-bottom within the chimney may be easier than sections of rigid pipe. It can be purchased already insulated, or you could try to get away with just insulating the bottom section and the top run above the roof line by yourself, with rock wool (or perlite, or a combo of them)... a cheaper method that may be effective but not to code,

Block off plate certainly looks doable. Reading the post now - Thanks! The liner seems like a much easier install than doing the rigid pipe (and a bit cheaper too).

gldntrout · Oct 31, 2013

Dave A. said:
Instead of. SS Liner is the typical means of venting a stove or insert through chimney inside a fireplace.

Would I just connect the stove pipe to the Liner then?

blades · Oct 31, 2013

Welcome, You can pull that ng line in the fire place your self not hard. Just need to back track on where its coming from, find a convenient joint/connection between the fire place and the main line its tapped off of. Shut down ng if there isn't a valve further back on that line to shut it down. You might need a appropriate size nipple and you will need a cap or a plug depending on where the fireplace line is disconnected ( black iron, not the galvanized stuff) you will also need a small jar or can of plumbing joint sealer rated for gas lines. Pretty self evident after that. check your work with some water & dish detergent mix ( snitch childrens blowing bubble stuff) soak your work down with that looking for bubbles (leak ) no bubbles good to go. A couple of 12" or so pipe wrenches will be needed also one for each side of what you are taking apart ( don't want to twist the backend of a pipe loose at its connection point) Hope this isn't too muddy.

Dave A. · Oct 31, 2013

If the stove is going inside the fireplace, you wouldn't need any stove pipe. At the end of the liner you would attach an appliance connector which would fit into the flue collar on the stove.

Edit: If you go with ss liner, you should be able to get a good price on a kit if you shop around. Don't recall the length you mentioned but iirc it was less than 15' which is at the low end in cost of liner kits. I got mine from ebay (Rockford sells @ lower prices there). But from what others have said, you can bargain with the dealers. I would say uninsulated, shoot for around $250 or less, maybe at most $200 more for insulated.

Re-edit: Insulated is recommended, particularly with exterior chimney, as you have, and may be required, especially if you don't have a clay liner or it is cracked or damaged at all, or if ins. co. or inspector insists - a possibility.

You need to check/know dimensions for size of present fireplace flue, flue collar on stove. Size of fireplace opening (is that stove going to fit? particularly height-wize)

Re: block-off plate most use appx 24 gauge, and top plate will usually come with liner kit. Unless you permanently remove flag top, you won't need a cap with kit. But will probably be best to at least temporarily remove it to install liner and top plate.

blades · Oct 31, 2013

Different subject: if that fireplace was a fireplace originally then that flue is likely a fair size and slipping a liner( perferably insulated) down it should not be particularly difficult ( smoke shelf is the hard spot). You will need to fab a block off plate at bottom and one for top , 10-14 gauge steel sheet on bottom, stainless same spec for top. Might have to get a shop to put a 6" (?) hole in it for you. digging on the net or library should get you enough info to be more than real dangerous . A pair of band clamps for either end of the liner to keep it in place. some fireplace brick cement ( sold in caulking gun cartridges) to seal around block off on bottom same thing but mortar on top. A extra body wouldn't hurt either with the liner. ( Real simple over view of what is required) give us some dimensions of that flue and we can be more specific. Dave A beat to some of this as well.

Ashful · Oct 31, 2013

Okay... you're resolved to do this. Our fireplace situations are very similar, so I can offer some advice here. I have a flagstone chimney topper, like yours, and I was able to keep it. However, since the liner sticks up a bit taller than the chimney stack (gotta fit the crown collar onto the liner at the top), and my installer wanted to see a certain minimum gap between the top of the liner and the bottom of the flagstone, we ended up raising the flagstone by one extra course of brick:

It looks like you have no clay liner in your flue, and the porridge used to line your chimney is not 100%. If this is the case, the typical solution is a blanket-wrapped flex liner. This plan also satisfies any concerns (common with old houses) over wood timber placed too close to the outside of your masonry chimney, such as rafters at the roof protrusion.

edit: in response to the comments by others above, about stove pipe / chimney / liners... typical is a flex liner (most often blanket-wrapped when installed in an old/questionable chimney) from crown down to a block-off plate. Then install an 'appliance adaptor' on bottom of flex liner, below block off plate. Run single wall black stove pipe up from your stove to this appliance adaptor. Done. Clean.

Stovepipe: steel, usually painted black, used for connecting stove to liner or chimney. not designed to go inside existing chimney

Liner: usually stainless, designed to go inside an existing chimney

Chimney pipe: insulated, usually stainless, designed for stand-alone use, or inside a non-chimney chase (or inside a seriously faulty chimney)

akbear · Oct 31, 2013

eclecticcottage said:
There are a lot of folks that believe old windows are worth saving

I just made this point the other day on another thread, in the last few years studies are finally admitting that properly sealed single pane windows with storms can be more effective than doublepane windows (especially when compared to bottom of the line vinyl windows that most people slap on). And furthermore, most replacement windows are installed where storm windows would be (onto the exterior of the wall) which doesn't help matters much.

If you want a real eye-opener (or intend to replace windows at some time in the future) download a copy of RESFEN http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/tools_directory/software.cfm/ID=150/pagename=alpha_list_sub. On that you can play around with different window types to find out what is a good investment and what is simply hype that will never payback (or at least not in it's expected service life and before seals are expected to fail, which actually with some of the fill gasses they leak a certain percentage per year right from the start). It's also interesting to find out things such as will low-e glass be a help or a loss (at my latitude low-e glass is a heat loss even on north facing windows compared to the solar gain).

The whole window business has gotten to be such a scam, and even things that are supposed to help often don't (for instance, energy star and manufacturers are biased towards the southern states where air conditioning is the primary cost and our recommended u-values don't even come close to what Canada suggests for similar conditions and locations and both pale to what Europe requires), so do your homework and don't let some salesperson hook you on some pie in the sky promise.

Need help: Unemployed, but have a kent tile stove. Now what?

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