Gunner said:
Particulate Emitters
Pitiful Energy
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Just met with Distributor rep!
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Particulate Emitters
Pitiful Energy
Partially Efficient
Pumps Egos
Pseudo Englander
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
MrGriz
New Member
wxman, I'm glad to hear that you stuck with it and got things resolved. I can't believe that anyone could stand there and tell you that was not a warranty problem. I just hope things go well with the swap. Keep us posted.
Me too griz. and Elk you may bring this to anyones attention you wish. As far as I know the glitch was only in the warranty dept. She works outside the central office. It may be related but I doubt it. And your comment about this sweep/dealer is 100% correct but if a dist. or Manufactureer is going to sell stoves wholesale to these guys they better damn well get the same respect a delaer that buys 100's gets or dont do it at all! Like I said I'm done pursueing this at this point. I'll keep ya informed when the swap is made and pics of the new hearth etc.
Peace
LAtes
Peace
LAtes
Gunner
New Member
Every Split Weld
Enough Stinkin Wood
Everyday Sooty Woe
Emergency Service Work
Economic Ship Wreck
Extra Smoke Wiff
Enhance Shoddy Workmanship
Eventually Self Warping
:lol: I like this Game :lol:
Enough Stinkin Wood
Everyday Sooty Woe
Emergency Service Work
Economic Ship Wreck
Extra Smoke Wiff
Enhance Shoddy Workmanship
Eventually Self Warping
:lol: I like this Game :lol:
wxman said:
I read the entire thread and think there's a disconnect. You heard it 2nd hand and while I believe you, CFM will never respond unless higher ups are notified of it. You need to write a letter to the Director of Engineering with a courtesy copy to the President of CFM annotating exactly what happened and identifying the person who told you that CFM told him that it wasn't a warranty issue. THEN you close with this "if I don't hear proper resolution of this issue from you within two weeks, I'm going to follow-up with a letter to the consumers products division (CPD) asking them to recall the entire line for faulty welds".......if you don't do the above, then everything you've heard to-date is pure conjecture because you really DON'T know if the statement of "it's not a warranty issue" is really their position.......a letter will confirm this...especially if they don't respond....in which case I'd still write the CPD about this.....
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
Wxman, I can understand your relief at finally getting a resolution of sorts (though I don't feel like you've gotten much compensation for the hassles you've had to go through to get it) and the notion of being tired and not wanting to put a lot of energy into pursuing it further.
OTOH, if this is a widespread problem, which it may be given the high failure rate in our limited sample size (Do we have any other users of that model besides the two that failed?) you have been luckier than most in that you've had our support both in finding that there WAS a problem, and in (eventually) getting a resolution to it...
The question is where does the responsibility end? Given that VC seems to be in denial about the issue, how hard should we be ramming it down their throat (or sticking it up some other orifice if we feel that might get their attention sooner :bug: %-P ) You and Tendencies got yours, but do you, or we as a group need to keep pushing on this for the sake of all the non-members out there that may be having the same failure?
If tomorrow, or next year, some member logs on with a tale of his house burning down because of this defect are you or we going to have a case of the "guilties" over "If only we had made a bigger stink instead of stopping when we did?"
I don't know what the answer is, or even if there is a "right" answer, but thought it was a question that needed to be asked if only to help you / us decide what to do....
Gooserider
OTOH, if this is a widespread problem, which it may be given the high failure rate in our limited sample size (Do we have any other users of that model besides the two that failed?) you have been luckier than most in that you've had our support both in finding that there WAS a problem, and in (eventually) getting a resolution to it...
The question is where does the responsibility end? Given that VC seems to be in denial about the issue, how hard should we be ramming it down their throat (or sticking it up some other orifice if we feel that might get their attention sooner :bug: %-P ) You and Tendencies got yours, but do you, or we as a group need to keep pushing on this for the sake of all the non-members out there that may be having the same failure?
If tomorrow, or next year, some member logs on with a tale of his house burning down because of this defect are you or we going to have a case of the "guilties" over "If only we had made a bigger stink instead of stopping when we did?"
I don't know what the answer is, or even if there is a "right" answer, but thought it was a question that needed to be asked if only to help you / us decide what to do....
Gooserider
Shane,
You said you have 8-9 units in the field. Have you inspected any?? I would not have seen the failed weld if not for this website and looking closely. Lets see a bigger sample. I will email the Consumer safety again. Goose brings up a good point and not only may it save lives but no better way to "stick it to the man" then to make them fix em all!
You said you have 8-9 units in the field. Have you inspected any?? I would not have seen the failed weld if not for this website and looking closely. Lets see a bigger sample. I will email the Consumer safety again. Goose brings up a good point and not only may it save lives but no better way to "stick it to the man" then to make them fix em all!
Shane
Minister of Fire
I'll tell my boss to be sure to have the guys check the ones we have in the field as we clean them this year. Thurs is my last day as a stove monkey, so I won't be able to do it personally.
bacsales
New Member
elkimmeg said:
First of all my company must bear full responsibility for the delays. It was a problem with my warranty department. I have personally apologised to wxman and CFM. The original claim was denied due to lack of information and a lack of response from Wxmans dealer. The representative from CFM corporate could not get a call back from wxmans dealer. The Rep needed more information to process the claim. (possibly the pictures I am guessing here) After 4 phone calls he gave up. I believe Wxmans dealer was on vacation at the time. This might explain it partially. The status now on wxmans stove is a full warranty claim. This has ben in effect since wxman contacted me and has not changed. The eastern regional CFM rep will inspect wxmans stove when it is at my location and it will either be field scrapped or sent to CFM for further evaluation. That being said BAC Sales sold its first dutchwest insert on 6/10/04. Since then we have processed 2 warranty claims. The first was a bad door alignment, the second is Wxman. BAC has sold more than 340 of these inserts since 04. I am not lessening the severity of this weld breaking but the product has been almost completely trouble free before this. There are lots of things being said here but the bottom line is it is ultimately my fault. Not CFM or anyone else's.
Jack Cohen
BAC Sales
[email protected]
jack said:
I knew it had to be miscommunication somewhere along the line........good that it got resolved. I, as an engineer, found it almost unbelieveable that once appraised of a broken weld, that someone would knowingly say it's "not a warranty issue".....so the only answer was the most obvious...that CFM never really knew (enough) about it....
Jack,
Thanks for the clarification, I admitted it was 2nd hand knowledge and I'm glad you have straigtened things out. My dealer gave me no information regarding CFM trying to contact him. I will pose that question to him next time I talk to him. I also guess that the pictures I forwared were lost in the computer glitch. I apologize for jumping to conclusions. I personally believe BAC Sales, once all the info was in the right hands, acted in a prompt and professional manner. I guess that seeing Tendencies response or lack thereof helped fuel my fire.
Sincerely,
Glen
Thanks for the clarification, I admitted it was 2nd hand knowledge and I'm glad you have straigtened things out. My dealer gave me no information regarding CFM trying to contact him. I will pose that question to him next time I talk to him. I also guess that the pictures I forwared were lost in the computer glitch. I apologize for jumping to conclusions. I personally believe BAC Sales, once all the info was in the right hands, acted in a prompt and professional manner. I guess that seeing Tendencies response or lack thereof helped fuel my fire.
Sincerely,
Glen
Tendencies
Member
Well for lack of something better to say or do, how in Sam He#$ does this remedy the situation of shoddy welds on the VC Dutchwest Stoves????? I'm glad BAC finally stepped forward and is going to take your old stove away and give you credit on a new PE but is BAC going to put some pressure on VC about the original problem? Somebodys got to and so far it seems VC just doesn't really care and is just hoping we go quietly away.... I can't believe we are the only 2 experiencing this problem, most owners will probably never even know they have a problem unless they are told about it as most people don't inspect their stoves that closely leaving that job up to the Sweep's and who's telling them??? I'd still appreciate it if you filed a safety concern note with the consumer protection agency, at the minimum maybe they'll get the message out to the Sweeps to atleast be on the lookout....
T who's ticked that this is going to get swept under the rug and somebodys gonna pay for that with their life!
T who's ticked that this is going to get swept under the rug and somebodys gonna pay for that with their life!
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
I'm certain VC knows about the problem at this point...or lack of one.
We have to remember that we are at arms length, and diagnosing from afar is tough. At first glance it does look bad with 2 out of two, but there are lots of explanations...or possible ones. Maybe the design is ok, maybe it is not. But without me actually looking at a unit 100% from all sides and angle, we cannot make that determination.
Jack and BAC and VC all took care of business and if they want to review the construction of the stove, so be it. They have the numbers (units sold) and warranty claims, and we do not.
There is only so much we can do.
When and if I have a chance, I will look at one of these babies in a warehouse, but again that would be just opinion and speculation.
We have to remember that we are at arms length, and diagnosing from afar is tough. At first glance it does look bad with 2 out of two, but there are lots of explanations...or possible ones. Maybe the design is ok, maybe it is not. But without me actually looking at a unit 100% from all sides and angle, we cannot make that determination.
Jack and BAC and VC all took care of business and if they want to review the construction of the stove, so be it. They have the numbers (units sold) and warranty claims, and we do not.
There is only so much we can do.
When and if I have a chance, I will look at one of these babies in a warehouse, but again that would be just opinion and speculation.
bacsales
New Member
As I said the factory representative from CFM corporate will be looking at Wxman's stove when it is back at BAC. I will keep everyone informed about the outcome.
ecfinn
New Member
jack said:
Jack,
Just wanted to thank you for publicly responding to the issues here. In my mind, it speaks highly of you and your company that you're willing to do so. I personally appreciate your honesty. I've got no personal interest in this issue, but I am an interested observer.
Thanks,
Eric
It was so unbelievable that CFM would utter the words it was not a warranty issue, then the Usuall CFM /VC bashing occured as it always does here.
Thanks Jack for the clarification and forwarding the stove back to CFM for examination. This may be the first time they know of the issue,
Yet like always here, there are plenty to junp on the bandwagon and bash away without getting all the facts straight..
I have yet to hear an appoligy for over reaction without know all the facts. True the welds broke no mistake about that but CFM got abused without knowing
a problem existed and some dealer lied about the warranty claim or lack of claim ..A lie for conviences, because he was too lazy to follow up the situation
Yet all bashers were out in full force to bash away based on a dealers lie
Thanks Jack for the clarification and forwarding the stove back to CFM for examination. This may be the first time they know of the issue,
Yet like always here, there are plenty to junp on the bandwagon and bash away without getting all the facts straight..
I have yet to hear an appoligy for over reaction without know all the facts. True the welds broke no mistake about that but CFM got abused without knowing
a problem existed and some dealer lied about the warranty claim or lack of claim ..A lie for conviences, because he was too lazy to follow up the situation
Yet all bashers were out in full force to bash away based on a dealers lie
MrGriz
New Member
Way to go Jack!
It's refreshing to see someone step up to the plate and admit their roll in the problem. That's ultimately how situations like this get fixed and how they are avoided in the future.
Unfortunately, it's rare to see anyone step forward today and admit that they did something wrong and their were consequences because of it. That says a lot about you and the way you run your business.
Keep us posted on CFM's reply.
It's refreshing to see someone step up to the plate and admit their roll in the problem. That's ultimately how situations like this get fixed and how they are avoided in the future.
Unfortunately, it's rare to see anyone step forward today and admit that they did something wrong and their were consequences because of it. That says a lot about you and the way you run your business.
Keep us posted on CFM's reply.
Add my thanks to Jack for the post. I appreciate the candor. Can you update us on what CFM feels was the cause? It seems that wxman's stove appeared to be fine until he took a closer look. Will CFM be looking at other stoves in the field to see if this is a larger issue?
As an aside, we just went through a similar snafu with our son's college class registration. Our son got a cover letter from admissions that class registration would start for freshman on May 21st. Then last Thursday we get a call at 6pm on the answering machine saying he has until tomorrow noon to register and won't have another chance until fall - at which point most courses would be booked. We all had a temporary freakout and scrambled to learn the online registration process and decide what courses to enroll in. But all of this was without speaking to an adviser. This just didn't sit right with me, so we held off and I called first thing. Finally by 10 am I got a human being and after several return phone calls we started getting things straightened out. It turned out that the school had just switched to a new online system, but the admissions paperwork did not. Human error and they were very apologetic and helpful. Our son squeaked into the class of his choice with a little string pulling. And the school braced itself for a batch of people checking in on 5/21 only to find the online system closed to registration. Oh well. We would all do well to remember that human beings do make mistakes. As long as they are willing to be helpful and fix them, it's time to move on and appreciate the assistance. Next time it might be you making the mistake.
As an aside, we just went through a similar snafu with our son's college class registration. Our son got a cover letter from admissions that class registration would start for freshman on May 21st. Then last Thursday we get a call at 6pm on the answering machine saying he has until tomorrow noon to register and won't have another chance until fall - at which point most courses would be booked. We all had a temporary freakout and scrambled to learn the online registration process and decide what courses to enroll in. But all of this was without speaking to an adviser. This just didn't sit right with me, so we held off and I called first thing. Finally by 10 am I got a human being and after several return phone calls we started getting things straightened out. It turned out that the school had just switched to a new online system, but the admissions paperwork did not. Human error and they were very apologetic and helpful. Our son squeaked into the class of his choice with a little string pulling. And the school braced itself for a batch of people checking in on 5/21 only to find the online system closed to registration. Oh well. We would all do well to remember that human beings do make mistakes. As long as they are willing to be helpful and fix them, it's time to move on and appreciate the assistance. Next time it might be you making the mistake.
wxman said:
THERE WAS MY APOLOGY. Just thought ya might want to see it again!
PS Hey Jack, completely off topic but what type of vessel ya in there? I sell boats and have been in the business for years. Just curious.
bacsales
New Member
Thanks everyone for the kind words. I saw your apology Wxman. We are A OK. Thank you very very much. My boat is a Hunter 34. Unfortunately I have to sell it. I moved to South Carolina for a year but I have moved back to NY to run the family business. Obviously I can't use it as much as i would like. If you want I can take some pictures of it the next time I am down there. Maybe you could sell it for me. Here is a few more pics
Attachments
Jack,
Unfortunately we dont get involved with sailboats but if you want to email me some specs and asking price if I get any inquiries for blowboats
(seldom but it does happen) I will foreward them to you.
Unfortunately we dont get involved with sailboats but if you want to email me some specs and asking price if I get any inquiries for blowboats
(seldom but it does happen) I will foreward them to you.elkimmeg said:
I'll second that idea. Not that I want to bash VC, but they do seem to have a peculiarly awkward way of stepping on their own toes.
One nice thing about a bad weld is that it isn't a matter of opinion as to why it failed. From an engineering standpoint a structure simply isn't allowed to fail at a weld. There are all sorts of design, safety agency regulations, and required inspections to make sure that can't happen. And if the weld is connected with anything hot, the requirements go way up. Put it into a house, and the requirements go up again.... I can imagine that the safety agency requirements for wood stoves would make a designer shudder. And if a welded joint does pop in spite of all of the safeguards then there are commonly accepted tests that can tell you exactly why.
It is never the user's fault if a structure breaks at a weld - no way it could be. In my opinion VC should be made aware of this at all levels. I'll bet that that you will find someone at VC that will thank you for the information. And if not, I'll guarantee that you can find someone at the the safety oversight agency that will.
The next purchaser might not be so savy about looking at his stove' construction; I urge you to pursue this.
Scotty - retired engineer
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
Hey Jack, my parents live in Wexford (hilton head)....
Nice harbor and all.....but it's too hot down there, so running the family biz might be a better choice for now.
Nice harbor and all.....but it's too hot down there, so running the family biz might be a better choice for now.
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