Can anyone recommed a manufacturer of a good commercial stove. I'm looking to heat our 6000 s.f. woodworking shop. Any replies appreciated.
Commercial wood / pellet stove
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restorer
New Member
joedec said:
Having a shop about 1/4 your size, I can heat with a stove. I think you are asking a lot to heat with a stove, you should be looking for a furnace. Traeger has an excellent record for pellet furnaces. There are other makers, but the Btu requirements will need to come from others on the forum. I can't think that high. I would seriously think about dividing the shop into zones where heat can be eliminated or reduced. Also there is the issue of what happens when you use a dust collector or exhaust fan, where can you safely place the stove so it does not interfere with the operation of the shop and also doesn't become a fire hazard.
Give us a floor plan, is it all open, are their rooms or areas that can be shut off (and how big are they?). What kind of ceiling heighth and insulation/construction.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Does the airborn wood dust have the potential to explode just as the airborn grain dust can burst into flames in a grain elevator? I would rather have a woodstove in a garage than in a woodshop.
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
Sounds like a great application for an OWB, considering the availability of dry fuel and the explosion danger noted by Highbeam. Otherwise, I'd go with UncleRich's furnace suggestion.
restorer
New Member
Highbeam said:
There is a potential for fire and explosion of wood dust, but that is very limited as compared to a grain elevator. It is most simply put that the concentration necessary to explode is so high that you can't breathe in the silo or the shop. I have been in shops where the dust was thick and uncomfortable to breathe and no concern for the concentration affecting the employees.
Every couple of years I have a near panic attack when I discover in the nooks and crannies of the shop to find build of of dust, but it is not explosive. The use of a wood stove, or a pellet stove needs attention, but is not impossible. If dust is collected from machinery and the chips and “frass” from machining are cleaned up, it is very reasonable to use pellets to heat. Problems arise when cleanliness is ignored.
The best solution is to have the heating source in a separate room with it's own source of fresh air. My last shop the furnace was in an attached shed and the fresh air supply for combustion came from outside. The cold air return was at waist high and split half recycled, half fresh. Worked great.
Currently I use a pellet stove. In the main part of the shop. It is raised 16 inches off the floor the bottom of the firebox is at 28 inches. It's located about at least two feet from combustibles and at least 6 inches from the sheetrock walls. (Specs say it can be one inch away.) It is in the machine area of the shop, there are several dust collector ports near by and an ambient air cleaner above and about 4 feet away. I direct vent and I have an OAK. It was spooky for a while, but I am very comfortable with the set up. The air cleaner acts as a nice ceiling fan.
I do have two “paint safes” with the flammable chemicals and paints in them. I have these in a separate room, it has a raised threshold (like an air dam) and a tight fitting door. The reason is to prevent the migration of chemicals across the floor. I do use some that are not flammable, but combined with heat can be corrosive to ferrous metals and will pit aluminum. Those are used in a separate room with no heat.
The problem with a garage is the flammables in vehicles and equipment are in tanks that you can not seal and can build up unnoticed to an explosive level. That is why wood stove and pellet stoves are specifically banned from installation in a garage. Check back over posts about shop installations on the forums. Raising them 24 inches off the floor adds safety, and putting them in a separate space is better. There are other members here that can add a great deal to this.
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
Just in the spirit of recycling and making use of what's available, I'd consider getting a stove or furnace that can burn your sawdust and other scraps in addition to other fuels of some sort - possibly something like a Sedore. I think the semi-OWB idea is also good - get a furnace and put it in an outbuilding or addition... It would be outdoors and burn wood, but not be critter we all love to hate. I agree it sounds more like a furnace size application than a pellet stove.
BTW, my local small engine (lawn tractors, chainsaw, etc.) shop heats with a pellet stove inside his small shop - one can question the wisdom considering that he has a lot of gas getting spilled and such, but he's been in business for years, and hasn't blown up yet...
Gooserider
BTW, my local small engine (lawn tractors, chainsaw, etc.) shop heats with a pellet stove inside his small shop - one can question the wisdom considering that he has a lot of gas getting spilled and such, but he's been in business for years, and hasn't blown up yet...
Gooserider
restorer
New Member
Gooserider said:
Goose:
I seriously looked at the Sedore, but thought it too small for my purposes. They are trying to heat 6,000 sf. Not enough details on ceiling height and insulation type of construction. Further information is needed for size, but I can't think of a pellet stove that will successfully heat much over half that space. Any comments on the biggest available outside of a furnace?
wg_bent
Minister of Fire
UncleRich said:
Sorry Rich, but your wrong here. I know of a commercial wood shop in Endicott NY that burned down twice, both times due to an explosion from wood dust and a wood burning heater.
restorer
New Member
Warren said:
I. too. know about horrendous fires in wood shops. The oldest continuously operated wood working shop in Salt Lake burned to the ground in a little over thirty minutes. The source of the fire was the dust collector. A friend in Idaho lost his woodworking shop heated by a wood furnace, but not from the heater, the fire was from a stack of oily rags lefted by a helper at the end of the day. There was several years ago a huge explosion at a cabinet shop here that blew the walls out, cause was accumulated dust and solvent fumes in a failed exhaust system.
For years it has been blamed on the stove, when there are no direct connection between a properly operated stove and the flammables in a clean and well maintained shop. If a shop burns twice it's because of the lack of safety practices in the shop. If you look at historical records, woodshops have heated with wood for as long as recorded history. The best early stoves were developed to burn the waste from woodworking. Some of the best commercial chip burners are advances on the stoves used in woodworking shops.
I can not count the number of fires and total destruction of auto shops and paint shops from fires caused by cutting corners on their heating systems. A local body shop became a parking lot in about twenty seconds from using a propane heater to warm a paint booth.
Stupid is as stupid does. If you are responsible you can burn wood almost anywhere, you need to be careful.
It's easy to point yor finger at the appliance as the source, but the operator is the primary culprit.
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
UncleRich said:
I agree the 6K feet will be a problem, I think the OP needs to go with a furnace, probably either forced hot air or water, probably water would be more efficient. I'd look at a Tarm or one of the other gassification units, though I don't know if they can burn sawdust very well... I don't think a Pellet furnace would do it, and looking back at the OP, he didn't say pellets, just commercial wood...
Probably if he has an existing heating system, I'd look for a furnace that could tie into it and just be an alternative heat source, but use the same distribution system.
Gooserider
I would put in a pair of Englander 30NCs. During the shoulder seasons, one stove will easily handle the load. When it gets real cold, start up the second stove.
restorer
New Member
HEY, JOE....
We need your help. We can guess all day, give us your data. This has interest on this forum.
We need your help. We can guess all day, give us your data. This has interest on this forum.
Sorry guys for the tardy response. Our building has exposed steel bar joists with the metal decking at 14" above finished floor. The roof is new with 2" rigid insu;lation. We have two gas rooftop units that heat the space. We have a 20' x 30' partitioned spray booth and a partition office / lunch room appx. 300 s.f. The balance of the 6000 s.f. is open shop area with machines, tools and work areas. Prior to this builkding I had offered to purchase a building of similiar size and it was heated with a commercial pellet stove in the shop area. I was there in February and it heated the shop very well. Of course I didn't get the info on the unit! We have a ducted dust collection system for all machines and materials are all vertically stored in one area. The builkding is constructed of concrete block exterior with exposed steel barjoists and steel framing on the interior. There would be an area with plenty of clearances for fire concerns. My intent is to find a unit that can reduce the use of the rooftop gas units. I hate dealing with the gas company and their prices in CT are expensive.
stoveguy13
Minister of Fire
restorer
New Member
joedec said:
A few quick questions:
1. Does your spray booth have separate make-up air, or does it draw air from the shop?
2. Does your dust collector use a micro-filter and return air to the shop? Is it all inside the shop and exhaust directly, or is it an outside bag house and exhaust?
3. Do you have any ceiling fans, or inside only circulation?
I'm trying to find out a guess of the extra air you need to heat in order t determine the size of unit you need.
The spray booth vents to the outside with the shop air as make up air. It draws air from the shop thru filters mounted within the partitions which is painful as it exhausts warm air in the winter. There are periods of heavy use for a couple of days and when we are fabricating laminated cabinets it may go unused for several days or a week. I am unable to csalculate the time of use as it is directly dependent on our customers orders.Our dust collection systems are internal with 3 separate systems which collect machine dust into large containers. We have 6 ceiling fans mounted high which are effieient in the summer monmths. I do not have a budget in mind but if i do something it has to be cost effective. Thanks for the replies.
GVA
Minister of Fire
Do you reverse the fans in the winter? That's what I have to do..joedec said:
The problem with the regular industrial ceiling fans is they spin too fast.
You have air stratification there, maybe try one of these
> http://www.bigassfans.com/howitworks.php :-/ I'm still trying to get a couple of these installed at our distribution center...
restorer
New Member
Joe:
I am assuming a 14' ceiling right? A metal decking, flat ceiling and two inches of insulation over that? I see these issues. your spray booth will be the biggest cost you have. They are designed to move several cubic feet of air per minute. If memory serves me it's going to be a few thousand on a booth your size. My first thought is to isolate the loss. If you can wall off the booth and provide direct outside air, you will save a bunch by not sucking your hard earned heat out the stack. A large panel of filter vents on each side, with one of the new Poly-walls to separate from shop will go a long way to saving heat. I have not looked at the walls for a while, but they are temporary can be taken down and put up easily and are not too expensive.
If you deduct the office, get a small stove for that, and the booth, and where you are storing your materials (use the poly walls there too) you are at about 5,000 feet. I can only think that a furnace would be the best, if pellets you can get some up to about 100,000Btu's, but more is pushing the cost button. BeGreen's suggestion of multi-stoves is a very good one. Two or even three of the cost effective 30n's from Englander would substantially help. You should use your ceiling fans to stop heat from hanging at the ceiling. If your dust collectors are all inside you will move some air, but shouldn't drain the heat. I would add two of the ambient air filters as large as you can get (up to 1,800 cfm) and move that air horizontally. It will help keep the shop clean too, and they are cheap to run.
I am not sold on the sawdust stoves others mention, but think the pellet will save you money. Remember, these stoves do have a lot of radiant heat generated also. They are nice to work those cold iron tools near. My shop stove is about 6 feet from my hand work bench, when I need to glue panels, I move the clamp cart close and let them warm up. If I'm going to use a bunch of hand tools for a day, I'll line then up on the bench and warm them. I turn the shop heat off at night and it can get chilly, so the warmth is appreciated in the morning.
There are some bio-mass stoves, corn stoves, multi-fuel stoves and furnaces that can fill your needs, just think of more than one and probably at the high end of the output range. When you don't need them all, use one where you are working. I would also recommend that you use built up hearths in the 16-24 range to eliminate the problem of pulling solvent fumes into the stoves.
I am assuming a 14' ceiling right? A metal decking, flat ceiling and two inches of insulation over that? I see these issues. your spray booth will be the biggest cost you have. They are designed to move several cubic feet of air per minute. If memory serves me it's going to be a few thousand on a booth your size. My first thought is to isolate the loss. If you can wall off the booth and provide direct outside air, you will save a bunch by not sucking your hard earned heat out the stack. A large panel of filter vents on each side, with one of the new Poly-walls to separate from shop will go a long way to saving heat. I have not looked at the walls for a while, but they are temporary can be taken down and put up easily and are not too expensive.
If you deduct the office, get a small stove for that, and the booth, and where you are storing your materials (use the poly walls there too) you are at about 5,000 feet. I can only think that a furnace would be the best, if pellets you can get some up to about 100,000Btu's, but more is pushing the cost button. BeGreen's suggestion of multi-stoves is a very good one. Two or even three of the cost effective 30n's from Englander would substantially help. You should use your ceiling fans to stop heat from hanging at the ceiling. If your dust collectors are all inside you will move some air, but shouldn't drain the heat. I would add two of the ambient air filters as large as you can get (up to 1,800 cfm) and move that air horizontally. It will help keep the shop clean too, and they are cheap to run.
I am not sold on the sawdust stoves others mention, but think the pellet will save you money. Remember, these stoves do have a lot of radiant heat generated also. They are nice to work those cold iron tools near. My shop stove is about 6 feet from my hand work bench, when I need to glue panels, I move the clamp cart close and let them warm up. If I'm going to use a bunch of hand tools for a day, I'll line then up on the bench and warm them. I turn the shop heat off at night and it can get chilly, so the warmth is appreciated in the morning.
There are some bio-mass stoves, corn stoves, multi-fuel stoves and furnaces that can fill your needs, just think of more than one and probably at the high end of the output range. When you don't need them all, use one where you are working. I would also recommend that you use built up hearths in the 16-24 range to eliminate the problem of pulling solvent fumes into the stoves.
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
UncleRich said:
2 30's would probably handle it, looking at 2 flues though , im not sure if there is a single interior wood unit that would get it done alone, maybe, just maybe that big 'ol blaze king, the one with the gynormous firebox, but even with that you might come up a bit short. hard to say for sure , will depend on heat retention as much as anything.
restorer
New Member
stoveguy2esw said:
Mike,
What's the biggest pellet burner you have heard of? Is there anything in the 100,000 plus Btu that really exists? I think this is a great pellet challenge.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
http://www.profab.org/Products/Pelco.aspx
Are larger pellet boilers......
http://www.newhorizoncorp.com/
Wood burning gasifiers and chip/sawdust stuff.
Are larger pellet boilers......
http://www.newhorizoncorp.com/
Wood burning gasifiers and chip/sawdust stuff.
bacsales
New Member
Try one of these. I have the 130,000 btu model heating @ 15,000 square feet. It does not heat it to 70 but I am looking to take the chill off only.
http://www.pinnaclestove.com/
http://www.pinnaclestove.com/
I doubt i could fully heat the space with a single unit but I would like to find a large unit to be the main source of heat and use the rooftop units as a supplement. On a side note my soapstone woodstove in my house is a real treat. We love the even heat. Thanks all.
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
UncleRich said:
was gonna say traeger has some big ones, more inline with furnaces, i have generally just dealt with resedential , you rarely see a pellet stove of that type run above 60K BTU as most houses do not require more than that and at 8500 BTu per pound per hour input (figure 6330 BTU output at 78% efficiency) 100K BTu output would require burning 15 pounds of pellets an hour. thats cookin!
stoveguy13
Minister of Fire
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