Nervous and disappointed - Quadr-Fire Voyageur VIDEO

Rick8325 · Dec 20, 2013

branchburner said:
Is this still with the furnace kicking on even more for the rest of the house, with thermostat set to 66 ? Or is the stove helping heat the rest of the house, too, so you use the furnace less?

If you are using a ton of wood just to get that room to 74F, with rest of the house being heated by the furnace to 66F, it still sounds like you have a serious problem with too much air entering the stove, causing the rapid wood consumption and forcing the heat up the flue, without it being transferred into the living space... at least in amounts that would correspond to the potential heating value of all that wood.

Loads of two-year old oak, burning at a rate of 5 logs in 2 hours, don't just crumble to ash so quickly in a stove with controlled airflow. It seems there would just have to be a problem with the stove for this to happen.

Regarding the general problem of that room being colder than others, in the past, you have not really described the layout of your house or chimney. If the chimney is exterior to the house, and that room is poorly insulated or leaky, it makes sense that the chimney would be pulling cold air into that room and helping cool it, regardless of any type of stove setup or its performance.

The thermostats last night was set to 65 for upstairs and down. The living room is where the insert last night peaked at 68 degrees but the room is usually 60 degrees so about 5-6 degrees colder than every other room in the house. It's a good sized room and has 2 floor heat registers. The chimney is 25' high and has a 6" insulated liner. The living room has a large opening to the dining room where there's 1 thermostat. The other side of the living room has a set of stairs that go up to the 2nd floor. The ceiling at the stairs is high and there's a ceiling fan there. At the top of the stairs is the other thermostat for the 2nd floor. The house has gas furnaces in the attic and basement. They kick on in short cycles in the winter. I notice they run more so when the fireplace is burning. Last night was the first time I was able to get the living room warmer than any other room in the house. Neither areas next to the living room got higher than the set temp of 65. The furnace on the 1st floor did not kick on much at all while the fireplace was burning. My second floor is never warmer than my 1st floor other than in the summer. I think I have a severe insulation problem in the living room. If it were same temperature as the rest of the house at 65 then I could have got it to 73-74 degrees in that room and it would have spread to the other rooms and upstairs. I think the the room struggles to retain the heat. I tried air tight recessed lighting, installing a ceiling fan, sealing the fireplace with an insert and nothing has changed. Total sq. footage is 1811, and 1500 with the insulated but unused 3 season porch closed off with doors.

Rick8325 · Dec 20, 2013

Paul L said:
You are still complaining about the ACC but have you taken any steps to check it's function? I've already told you how I checked mine.

Paul, you said "you engage the ACC control by pushing in and then pulling out".....the manual says "push the start-up air control all the way back until it stops and then pull forward to the front of the appliance until it stops.". I have to admit I am confused how this lever is operated. Then the manual says to lift up then away to override it. My Voyageur can only pull the lever out towards me then up, I cannot lift up and then out towards me.

Push back - pull forward? When I hear "push" I think of forward and when I hear "pull" I think of back.

Page 11 is kind of weird. Says to just push ACC all the way back until it stops and leave it there to override the ACC...nothing about lifting up.
It also says Push the Start-Up Air Control all the way back until it stops and then pull forward until it stops.
• This activates the timer system (ACC).
Then right under it, it says:
• Push the Start-Up Air Control until it stops.
• This activates the timer system (ACC).

Well which one is it?

-Confused-

branchburner · Dec 20, 2013

Rick8325 said:
I've been waiting for my dealer to get me a metal surround that will fill in the extra 2" gap at the top of the insert trim. I'm wondering if there is extra room air getting into the back of the insert because of that? There's roxul stuffed up by the old damper though and in the ash pit floor opening so no warm conditioned air is escaping and no cold outside air is entering.

Here is the problem: roxul will not fully stop the flow and exchange of warm and cold air. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this exterior chimney could be the main (but not only) reason that room has been colder. Even with the insert and chimney top plate, cool floor air (ultimately from outside) is pulled into that room, whether that air ultimately helps fuel combustion or not.

As an exterior chimney cools the warmer air that is trapped within it, what is to stop convection currents from transferring that cooler air back down to the room as even warmer air becomes more buoyant after being heated by the insert right below? A blockoff plate can stop what insulation can't. That airspace within the chimney does not become fully "dead" until you make it so. It remains a heat exchanger, with you helping to heat the great outdoors.

Further, it is true a six inch flue limits the amount of cold air that can be pulled through the house, heated and sent out the flue, but you need your stove throw enough heat to make that loss worthwhile. Consider four scenarios I could produce with my stove:

1) I severely limit the amount of primary/secondary combustion air allowed to enter my stove, resulting in very little heat loss but also very little heat production. I have a smoldering fire that never gets hot enough for secondary combustion.

2) I fully open the ashpan door and allow a huge amount of combustion air to enter my stove BELOW the firebox, resulting in a raging blast-furnace fire with high heat loss and high but unproductive heat production, as the draft is sucking up lot of the heat and pushing it out the chimney. I have an intense fire that gets hot enough for secondary combustion... and to ruin my stove.

3) I fully open the front door and allow combustion air to enter my stove AT the firebox, but without creating the overdraft setup of situation two... since fully opening the door kills the concentrated focus of the draft, resulting in a fire with some heat loss and some heat production, though far below optimal. I have in essence created an open fireplace, with a moderate, fast-burning fire that fails to get quite hot enough and concentrated for secondary combustion... and while it throws some decent heat with its pretty rolling flames, a lot goes up the flue, too, along with the unburned fuel of the smoke.

4) I manage the amount of primary/secondary combustion air to allow for some heat loss up the flue but also for very good, efficient heat production, as I have a concentrated fire that gets hot enough for secondary combustion and extended burn time.

You want number 4. You seem to be getting something closer to number 3.

Paul L · Dec 20, 2013

Rick8325 said:
Paul, you said "you engage the ACC control by pushing in and then pulling out".....the manual says "push the start-up air control all the way back until it stops and then pull forward to the front of the appliance until it stops.". I have to admit I am confused how this lever is operated. Then the manual says to lift up then away to override it. My Voyageur can only pull the lever out towards me then up, I cannot lift up and then out towards me.

Push back - pull forward? When I hear "push" I think of forward and when I hear "pull" I think of back.

Page 11 is kind of weird. Says to just push ACC all the way back until it stops and leave it there to override the ACC...nothing about lifting up.
It also says Push the Start-Up Air Control all the way back until it stops and then pull forward until it stops.
• This activates the timer system (ACC).
Then right under it, it says:
• Push the Start-Up Air Control until it stops.
• This activates the timer system (ACC).

Well which one is it?

-Confused-

OK now I'm confused too

. My dealer told me the only difference between the Voyageur Grand and the Voyageur is the size of the firebox. Not true, as your ACC is completely different than mine. I'm looking at a Voyageur manual online: http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/7063_512.pdf

Push in then pull out ... activates ACC system.
Push in and leave it ... opens up the front air and leaves it open.
Lift up and pull out closes the ACC. This is only after the ACC timer is engaged. Engage your ACC timer by pushing in, then pulling out. Then, you should be able to move the control up and then out to cancel.

Another confusing difference between yours and mine ... the manual on the Voyageur says once your ACC timer is engaged, push the lever in about 3/8 inch and this also opens up a rear air feed. Mine doesn't do this. The manual does not explain if this rear air feed is now on the same timer.

My goodness, and if you go onto QF's site and choose the control operations video for the Voyageur series, when it comes to ACC control, THEY EXPLAIN THE ACC ON A FREE STANDING STOVE, and not the Voyageur series which is completely different.

Quadra-Fire has created A LOT of confusion with this ACC thing and I can see absolutely nothing from the company that explains it's proper operation for the Voyageur series. Dumb Dumb Dumb.

Rick8325 · Dec 20, 2013

Paul L said:
OK now I'm confused too . My dealer told me the only difference between the Voyageur Grand and the Voyageur is the size of the firebox. Not true, as your ACC is completely different than mine. I'm looking at a Voyageur manual online: http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/7063_512.pdf

Push in then pull out ... activates ACC system.
Push in and leave it ... opens up the front air and leaves it open.
Lift up and pull out closes the ACC. This is only after the ACC timer is engaged. Engage your ACC timer by pushing in, then pulling out. Then, you should be able to move the control up and then out to cancel.

Another confusing difference between yours and mine ... the manual on the Voyageur says once your ACC timer is engaged, push the lever in about 3/8 inch and this also opens up a rear air feed. Mine doesn't do this. The manual does not explain if this rear air feed is now on the same timer.

My goodness, and if you go onto QF's site and choose the control operations video for the Voyageur series, when it comes to ACC control, THEY EXPLAIN THE ACC ON A FREE STANDING STOVE, and not the Voyageur series which is completely different.

Quadra-Fire has created A LOT of confusion with this ACC thing and I can see absolutely nothing from the company that explains it's proper operation for the Voyageur series. Dumb Dumb Dumb.

Damn it! The manual I have is from May 2013 and it shows a different ACC knob than what I have and it CAME with my stove. The one you just linked shows what my actual ACC knob looks like. The pages are all different too. Makes me wonder why they changed things around! Confusion galore.

Paul L · Dec 20, 2013

ACC - Accentuates Customer Confusion

Rick8325 · Dec 20, 2013

Also I do not believe the Voyageur or Voyageur Grand has the rear air option....It says it in the manual though.

Rick8325 · Dec 20, 2013

1:25

But see page 11 here: http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/7063_512.pdf

Oldhippie · Dec 21, 2013

> The outside air kit plate on the front of the stove by the fan blower was removed as it stated in the manual. I wonder what would happen if I screw it back on....?

That sounds like the problem to me.

Paul L · Dec 21, 2013

Oldhippie said:
> The outside air kit plate on the front of the stove by the fan blower was removed as it stated in the manual. I wonder what would happen if I screw it back on....?

That sounds like the problem to me.

No, that plate has been properly removed. Left in place only if outside air hookup is used.

Has the heat shield been put back on ? Please do this if you haven't yet.

Rick8325 · Dec 22, 2013

Paul L said:
No, that plate has been properly removed. Left in place only if outside air hookup is used.

Has the heat shield been put back on ? Please do this if you haven't yet.

I haven't put it back on yet. I will try to pull the stove out today to access it. It's been high 50's lately so I haven't burned in a few days. I hope the screws are still in there.

Rick8325 · Dec 22, 2013

I'm really curious why the Oct. 2013 updated Voyageur manual mentions the rear air intake when supposedly the Voyageur or Voyageur Grand doesn't have that option. Also why the updated manual makes no mention of a side heat shield. My Voyageur was made in Nov. 2013 and I was given a May 2013 manual. I'm so confused on the proper operation of this stove. I don't even think my dealer knows either. Man, I really thought I did enough research before buying this insert.

Sons924 · Dec 22, 2013

The acc system is the exact reason I didnt go with a quad. The only dealer that carried it didn't have many answers to its reliability. I do think it's either broken on your insert, or you are using it wrong. Try putting it in the opposite position that you have it in now. I don't think you need to use it when burning, it just seems like an automatic way to get new logs to burn efficiently without you standing there watching it. I know how you must feel, you spent a boatload of money and are seeing nothing positive. You should get in touch with quadrafire, and ask them what plates should and shouldn't be removed. Your problem is very clear, your getting too much air. The flames rolling up into the baffle won't start a fire. You could risk an overfire if it runs wide open all the time. The insert will make serious heat when you start cutting the air back. There is no secondary action in your video. That's why it's still cold in your house. Find out where the air is comming from. Make the dealer help you, you spent a lot of money.

Rick8325 · Dec 23, 2013

Sons924 said:
The acc system is the exact reason I didnt go with a quad. The only dealer that carried it didn't have many answers to its reliability. I do think it's either broken on your insert, or you are using it wrong. Try putting it in the opposite position that you have it in now. I don't think you need to use it when burning, it just seems like an automatic way to get new logs to burn efficiently without you standing there watching it. I know how you must feel, you spent a boatload of money and are seeing nothing positive. You should get in touch with quadrafire, and ask them what plates should and shouldn't be removed. Your problem is very clear, your getting too much air. The flames rolling up into the baffle won't start a fire. You could risk an overfire if it runs wide open all the time. The insert will make serious heat when you start cutting the air back. There is no secondary action in your video. That's why it's still cold in your house. Find out where the air is comming from. Make the dealer help you, you spent a lot of money.

Yeah I've been trying to get the dealer to come by. I'd really hate to give up on this stove because it's a nice looking stove but it's not worth $3k just to sit in my fireplace being useless.

Sons924 · Dec 23, 2013

The video shows too the fire burning with too much air. All the heat goes right up the chimney. Have you tried changing the position of the acc lever?

Rick8325 · Dec 23, 2013

Sons924 said:
The video shows too the fire burning with too much air. All the heat goes right up the chimney. Have you tried changing the position of the acc lever?

Yes I have. Some days it burns like in the video and some days it burns okay with smaller flames. Doesn't matter what the air rate lever is on. I have messed with the ACC controls on a few occasions. Still only getting 2 hours or less burn times with 3-4 seasoned hardwood logs. The manual for the operation on this stove is conflicting especially depending on which dated manual you read. Now I'm confused about reading about rear air intake when I have been told that it doesn't have this feature from Quad's Youtube video and earlier dated manuals. This stove has been quite a learning process. Because of the air controls that do what they want I could never feel safe stuffing the firebox for an overnight burn.

Paul L · Dec 23, 2013

Get up a nice bed of hot coals and figure out how the ACC works. Put the heat shield back on.

Rick8325 · Dec 23, 2013

Paul L said:
Get up a nice bed of hot coals and figure out how the ACC works. Put the heat shield back on.

I did put the heat shield back on. I've never had a problem starting or keeping a fire going. It's good option to have the ACC but I'm not really sure I ever need to use it. Haven't had a fire going in a few days. It's been fairly warm. Because I still have the top gap above my insert surround open I shined a light to my old damper. The installer went a little crazy with smashing out a couple of bricks to fit the liner through round. There's roxul up where the old damper was to block the air and it's sealed at the top of the chimney but there's some open bricks that I can see. Wonder if a lot of heated air is getting though there. I need to make a metal block off plate. This should be fun because I really don't want to remove the stove or liner/collar completely. I can access the area if I take the surround off.

branchburner · Dec 23, 2013

I am assuming that when you move the ACC it is manually overriding whatever the system would do on its own. If you have a good fire going, and then shifting the ACC to a different position for a few minutes has no bearing on how the fire is burning, wouldn't that suggest the ACC is providing only one level of (too much) air to the fire, in spite of being set at different levels? Is that what is happening?

If I open or close any doors or controls that affect air supply to my firebox, my fire immediately changes behavior. If I was to close my primary air from fully open to fully closed, and the fire continued burning in exactly the same manner, I would know the mechanism was broken and there was no change in air supply, even though it was telling me air had been reduced.

Nervous and disappointed - Quadr-Fire Voyageur VIDEO

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