Blaze King Sirocco 20 Help thread #2

laura bv · Dec 24, 2013

Apologies to all (and especially the originator of the "BK SC 20 Help thread" for the hijack. Looking more carefully I found the link to start a new thread. I'm not going to try to figure out how to migrate all the info (including pics of stove, burning data) from original thread with everyone's responsive responses.

The issue remains the same despite good wood (with BK's moisture meter readings below 16% on all pieces of live oak): I cannot sustain heat or a clean burn unless thermostat is at 100%. Per BK's manual: "Any thermostat position between 1 (low) and 3 (high) will produce the desired clean burning characteristics." If mine is turned down to even 2.75 the stove does not continue to burn clean, flue temps drift below 300 and combustor thermostat drifts into the inactive zone. I have no obvious problem with draft (smoke stays inside the box with door open and with or without bypass open. I have doubts that an addition of 1 -2 feet of extended chimney (mine is at 14' vs. recommended 15') or double wall stove pipe (mine is single wall) will solve this issue with a new stove, but those are the next steps per BK. However, I do not think this stove is functioning properly and I am reluctant to spend more energy and money on something that may or may not work.

Today's data with new wood is attached.

Also according to the BK manual: "A properly operating combustor will remain active, and the combustor thermometer will remain in the “active” zone until the wood load is mostly consumed. A “tired” or “dead” combustor will, with the thermostat on 2 or lower, go out completely, and the thermometer needle will
fall into the “inactive” zone. Repeat this procedure several times over several days. (Remember that the combustor thermometer has a built-in lag of 4-8 minutes.) If, after several test burns, the thermometer will not indicate an active” combustor, it may require cleaning or replacement."

Tomorrow I will brush and vacuum it according to manual. But this has been going on since the stove was installed 11/20. The dealer is aware, BK is aware yet they were convinced it was partly wood and mostly newbie operator. BK suggested the double insulation and extending the chimney, dealer who observed the burns did not think either would be of benefit.

There is a recurrent comment that my cat should be glowing. I have never seen it glowing. Per BK manual:"
IF ANY PART OF THE WOODSTOVE OR FLUE SYSTEM IS GLOWING THE STOVE IS BEING OVER FIRED."

I will call the dealer and BK again after xmas after cleaning combustor does not improve the stove's less than optimal function.

weatherguy · Dec 24, 2013

When you tested the wood with the meter did you split a piece and measure the freshly split face? If your draft isn't quite enough a little more might solve the problem. These are then easiest fixes so they should be the ones to try first. It's possible you have a faulty stove or combustor but unfortunately you have to go through these steps to figure it out. Why didn't the dealer do more to help? Did he just give up on you?

laura bv · Dec 25, 2013

weatherguy said:
When you tested the wood with the meter did you split a piece and measure the freshly split face? If your draft isn't quite enough a little more might solve the problem. These are then easiest fixes so they should be the ones to try first. It's possible you have a faulty stove or combustor but unfortunately you have to go through these steps to figure it out. Why didn't the dealer do more to help? Did he just give up on you?

Yes, on the new wood I measured both through cracks and on just split wood. The old wood readings were all over the place so am just going to let it season a year and only use mixed in with hotter wood. (Learned a lot today about oak species and about how lousy tan oak is as firewood). I really don't think its a draft problem but yes, it seems I have to add the extension to even approach the possibility of replacing the combustor. The dealer was here for a couple of hours to check it out and observe a burn with his wood (which again works fine in his SC 30). He got a hot burn and wanted me to get core temp of the house up so we left the thermostat on high. After he left of course in several hours the wood burned out (I've never gotten close to the advertised 8 hours on high burns). He said to call him in a week. If I had nothing else to do but feed this stove wood every several hours I might be able to get the core temp up, but...

HotCoals · Dec 25, 2013

laura bv said:
Apologies to all (and especially the originator of the "BK SC 20 Help thread" for the hijack. Looking more carefully I found the link to start a new thread. I'm not going to try to figure out how to migrate all the info (including pics of stove, burning data) from original thread with everyone's responsive responses.

The issue remains the same despite good wood (with BK's moisture meter readings below 16% on all pieces of live oak): I cannot sustain heat or a clean burn unless thermostat is at 100%. Per BK's manual: "Any thermostat position between 1 (low) and 3 (high) will produce the desired clean burning characteristics." If mine is turned down to even 2.75 the stove does not continue to burn clean, flue temps drift below 300 and combustor thermostat drifts into the inactive zone. I have no obvious problem with draft (smoke stays inside the box with door open and with or without bypass open. I have doubts that an addition of 1 -2 feet of extended chimney (mine is at 14' vs. recommended 15') or double wall stove pipe (mine is single wall) will solve this issue with a new stove, but those are the next steps per BK. However, I do not think this stove is functioning properly and I am reluctant to spend more energy and money on something that may or may not work.

Today's data with new wood is attached.

Also according to the BK manual: "A properly operating combustor will remain active, and the combustor thermometer will remain in the “active” zone until the wood load is mostly consumed. A “tired” or “dead” combustor will, with the thermostat on 2 or lower, go out completely, and the thermometer needle will
fall into the “inactive” zone. Repeat this procedure several times over several days. (Remember that the combustor thermometer has a built-in lag of 4-8 minutes.) If, after several test burns, the thermometer will not indicate an active” combustor, it may require cleaning or replacement."

Tomorrow I will brush and vacuum it according to manual. But this has been going on since the stove was installed 11/20. The dealer is aware, BK is aware yet they were convinced it was partly wood and mostly newbie operator. BK suggested the double insulation and extending the chimney, dealer who observed the burns did not think either would be of benefit.

There is a recurrent comment that my cat should be glowing. I have never seen it glowing. Per BK manual:"
IF ANY PART OF THE WOODSTOVE OR FLUE SYSTEM IS GLOWING THE STOVE IS BEING OVER FIRED."

I will call the dealer and BK again after xmas after cleaning combustor does not improve the stove's less than optimal function.

The cat is supposed to glow..nothing else.
Your draft sounds fine by reading your post.
I'm going now with the info I have that there is a huge prob with the cat. The cat is right in the smoke path to the flue. If the cat is dead it will slow the draft and make the wood harder to burn except on the highest thermostat setting.
Brush and or vacuum the cat with it in and see what happens.
If the cat will not glow there has to be a good reason why not.
Have you cleaned the flue yet?
Reason I ask is if you clean from the top down you can get crud behind the cat and that could mess things up as far has the cat lighting off and airflow out the flue.
At least on my stove that can happen..I checked out a pdf of your stove and it looks like it could happen to yours also.
I have to pull my pipe after cleaning the pipe to clean behind the cat..or pull the cat itself which requires a new gasket.

EDIT: I think this is the gasket material you will need. Check your manual. I know it works on my cat.
Anyways sooner or latter (probably sooner) you will be pulling that cat so you should get enough to do it 2 or 3 times. http://www.firecatcombustors.com/ACIG-2-p/sku_acig-2.htm

HotCoals · Dec 25, 2013

I made a jpeg of the data.

Quentin2 · Dec 25, 2013

I just want to add that my cat doesn't really have a pronounced glow until about 1000 deg. Or the 12 o'clock position on the bk cat meter. Also, when I want to see the glow or show newbies my cat glowing I will turn off the lights in the room. It is much more pronounced that way.

With my stove as soon as I hit the inactive/active line i close the bypass and the cat temp will take off and climb fairly quickly, it doesn't matter if I keep the stat up all the way or if I immediately turn it to 2 or lower. I know ideally you want to come down in stages but sometimes I'm tight on time.

I hope you get it figured out as my experience with a new bk has been the exact opposite of yours, it's worth mentioning that I have well over the minimum chimney height and I installed with double pipe as per bk suggestions.
Good luck and happy holidays

begreen · Dec 25, 2013

I am going to guess that the best benefit would be the improvement of good, dry wood. Still waiting for the results of the construction cutoffs or cut up 2x4s test. We need to use known dry wood here first.

After giving it some thought I am less suspicious of the cat being the issue. The dealer would have caught that for sure. There is also the possibility that the house is a very leaky sieve and that a Sirocco 30 would be a better fit. But that would only help if there is good fuel to burn.

HotCoals · Dec 25, 2013

begreen said:
I am going to guess that the best benefit would be the improvement of good, dry wood. Still waiting for the results of the construction cutoffs or cut up 2x4s test. We need to use known dry wood here first.

After giving it some thought I am less suspicious of the cat being the issue. The dealer would have caught that for sure. There is also the possibility that the house is a very leaky sieve and that a Sirocco 30 would be a better fit. But that would only help if there is good fuel to burn.

I PM'd her to check and see if the cat is even in there. You never know since she said she has never seen it glow.
She needs to pull up and out on the flame guard right in front of it.
That would be one for the books if someone forgot to put it in!

begreen · Dec 25, 2013

Anything is possible but I really think the dealer would have checked that, don't you? He is familiar with the stove, owns a BK Sirocco 30. And I don't think the cat thermo would be registering too high without it. The room temp went up 8 degrees in an hour which is not bad. No, something is missing here.

I am going to assume the stove is working for the moment and consider the house, maybe lack of blower on the stove and definitely the wood.

HotCoals · Dec 25, 2013

begreen said:
Anything is possible but I really think the dealer would have checked that, don't you? He is familiar with the stove, owns a BK Sirocco 30. And I don't think the cat thermo would be registering too high without it. The room temp went up 8 degrees in an hour which is not bad. No, something is missing here.

I am going to assume the stove is working for the moment and consider the house, maybe lack of blower on the stove and definitely the wood.

You very well could be right. I think she said the stove was going when the dealer brought his wood so he might not have checked for the cat if the stove was warm.
I'm just going by her info and for her to say she has never seen it glow leaves me with that thought. maybe some crap or something behind it also.
I gotta find out ! lol

Actually you can make that cat probe go up all the way almost with no cat in it. The probe will pick up the flame temp if the stove is cranking hard.
By looking at her charts you can see the probe drops way,way too fast to have been working at all when she guts in back to med.

begreen · Dec 25, 2013

Give me that chart running the stove on a load of construction cut offs.

HotCoals · Dec 25, 2013

begreen said:
Give me that chart running the stove on a load of construction cut offs.

Now that would be interesting to see no doubt.
The fact most burning problems are from the lack of good dry wood makes me lean your way. I'm just trying to cover anything else.
I been known to rebuild a motor when it probably only needed plugs..lol.

jeff_t · Dec 25, 2013

I doubt that switching to double wall, or adding a couple of feet on top, will get the night/day difference you are looking for.

Everything you describe points to the fuel. Try some compressed wood bricks, or 2x4 scraps like begreen suggested. That would be the easiest thing to try first. If this was covered in the other thread, I apologize. I haven't read all eight pages.

rdust · Dec 25, 2013

I'd like to see a picture of the stove loaded and details of how the stove is being run. Maybe document a burn from start to finish with pictures along the way.(stove temps, t-stat setting, pipe temps, room/house temp, outdoor temp)

Maybe I missed it, what state/climate is this stove located in? Live oak is tough stuff, I'd like to see it burned with a mix of softer type woods. To burn live oak all alone I'd say a good coal bed should be in place.

Where does the t-stat open and close on a hot/cold stove? We've seen t-stats wound backwards a time or two. Doesn't sound like the issue this time but still would like to rule out anything obvious.

fox9988 · Dec 26, 2013

If you don't have a draft problem (and it doesn't sound like you do) increasing the draft won't fix what isn't a problem.

Cats don't always glow but the fact that you've never seen it glow tells me it isn't working. If this is the case, it doesn't necessarily mean the cat is bad, it could be caused by something else like the air inlet has a dead rat in it.

Don't give up.

richg · Dec 26, 2013

In order to rule out the moisture content of your wood as a possible cause, my suggestion would be to try a couple of loads of store-bought firewood or bio bricks (Tractor Supply sells them). The store bought wood will not be cheap, but it will be dry. If the problem persists with bio bricks or store-bought wood, you can rule out wet wood as the cause.

Highbeam · Dec 26, 2013

Step one is to buy and chop up 2x4 lumber from the home depot and load the stove FULLY with those chunks providing air gaps around the chunks. Burn it, we're talking 5$. If you can't get the cat to operate correctly then your cat is almost certainly bad. You must first eliminate fuel quality as the cause since it is the most likely issue. No "testing" of your firewood will do this.

Your dealer's wood is not a known quality and just because he says it burns fine in his stove doesn't mean it will in yours. BTW, I often hear this from wood sellers selling wet wood. It burns just fine for me!

I have no faith in your dealer and I believe him to be incompetent. He should be embarassed that you are here looking for help. These things aren't that hard. He stumbled into the correct answer that flue changes won't fix this.

I also believe that you are not loading this stove aggressively enough. Fill the firebox top to bottom. You only have a tiny stove here.

My cat glows on every load. Within a few minutes of engagement and for several hours. You don't need to see the glow but your gauges are giving you all the information that you need. You aren't achieving BK potential.

begreen · Dec 26, 2013

Without hearing from the dealer I think it's a stretch to say he's incompetent. We have a lot of variables here not the smallest being a newcomer burning with a cat stove for the first time. We know the chimney height is marginal, wood is suspect, the daytime temps are mild and know little about how tight the house is. If the house was really only 1300 sq ft and was reasonably tight, heating it with good wood in a 2 cu ft stove should be no big deal, especially in relatively mild temps. Our next door neighbor heats 1600sq ft with a Spectrum and has no problem keeping it warm or even hot if his in-laws are visiting. That said I totally agree that so far she is not seeing the potential of the stove.

cat burning reference: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/glowing-combustor-bks-other-cat-stoves.120524

laura bv · Dec 26, 2013

Updates:
1. Looking up at the cat for glow. I was leaning down and only looking up at the first 2 rows of honeycomb/holes. But looking up from floor level, I see cat glowing. Pretty. My bad.
2. I'm convinced it is a thermostat install issue, turned at medium is turning down to low, turning down to low is basically turning off, turning past high is high. Operating thusly (never past medium) I can get an overnight burn with the crappy tan oak at start and the good dry live oak on top for good load.
3. BEST NEWS: Dealer is trading my 20 for his 30 on 1/8.

begreen · Dec 26, 2013

It sounds like with the so-so wood+weak draft, the cat may be stalling out at lower thermostat settings. It also sounds like you have an ace of a dealer. I would still add some chimney to increase draft and bring as much of the wood as you dare into the house to dry it out. A week in the house can make a big difference.

PS:have you tried burning a good load of dry 2x4s yet?

laura bv · Dec 26, 2013

begreen said:
It sounds like with the so-so wood+weak draft, the cat may be stalling out at lower thermostat settings. It also sounds like you have an ace of a dealer. I would still add some chimney to increase draft and bring as much of the wood as you dare into the house to dry it out. A week in the house can make a big difference.

PS:have you tried burning a good load of dry 2x4s yet?

Am in rural Mendocino County with limited options and haven't gotten into Ukiah. But I did get the 1/2 cord of good, hot burning, dry live oak from the 2nd of about 2 suppliers here. Going forward, this will likely be the only source of wood for burning around here so it HAS to work. All is well per last update. THANK YOU ALL for SOS responses.

fox9988 · Dec 26, 2013

The 20 should probably have been enough, the 30 should keep up with a couple of windows open. If the 30 doesn't keep you warm, you definitely have a draft/wood/other issue that has to be corrected for decent results. Heating with wood is simple once you figure it out.

Don't give up.

laura bv · Jan 9, 2014

UPDATE:
Whether it is that outside temps are 10 degrees warmer, that adding a foot to the stovepipe/chimney, that exchanging the 20 for the 30, that the thermostat on the 30 works correctly (whereas on the 20 it wasn't), that the 20 just isn't designed perfectly, and/or wood is a wee bit dryer, I really will never know. I do know that the firewood box on the 30 seems huge in comparison to the 20 and can fit more than double the wood in there.
Adjoining rooms are now 15 degrees warmer - 65 degrees at 10a after turning cat down between low and medium around 11a last night and cat is still active. For the first time since mid November when the 20 was installed, I am experiencing what it is supposed to be like to have a Blazeking. Thank you all for your support, advice, and responding to SOS.

laura bv · Jan 9, 2014

laura bv said:
UPDATE:
Whether it is because outside temps are 10 degrees warmer, there is an additional foot of stovepipe/chimney, the thermostat on the 30 works correctly (whereas on the 20 it didn't), the 20 just isn't designed perfectly, and/or the wood is a wee bit dryer, I really will never know. I do know that the firewood box on the 30 seems huge in comparison to the 20 - loading more than double the wood in there.
Adjoining rooms are now 15 degrees warmer - 65 degrees at 10a after turning cat down between low and medium around 11a last night and cat is still active. For the first time since mid November when the 20 was installed, I am experiencing what it is supposed to be like to have a Blazeking. Thank you all for your support, advice, and responding to SOS.

rdust · Jan 9, 2014

Glad to hear the 30 is working out!

Blaze King Sirocco 20 Help thread #2

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