Where to put storage

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Woodfarmer1

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Nov 10, 2013
247
Bowmanville, On,Can
If I get a 500 gallon stainless bulk milk tank or a recon propane tank, is there any sense in putting it beside the boiler in an insulated but not heated 2000 sf shop, or does it have to go in the heated basement. If I have have a storage tank then I may be able to heat the shop.
I'm using an elite 100 and trying to heat 4500 sf which it won't, so from what I have read here, storage is the next option.
The bulk tank is open and the propane tank would be pressurized, what is the difference and which route is better for my system?
 
Storage wont help you if ur boiler is already running flat out and not keeping up. Storage requires an oversized boiler and affords you the convenience of going longer times between reloads as well as some increased efficiency due to not idling. Time to upgrade or insulate. Start with heat loss calc.
 
I hope you can pull that off. I had a 1000 gallon setup that I used with my previous boiler, with my elite 100 I could never get my storage even close to temp and keep it there. I am only heating a 3200sq ft house, only heating the basement and have an LP furnace besides. I now have the storage disconnected. It is below zero today and I can only get maybe 4hours max burn. I can only get an 8hour burn if it stays in the upper 20s. You may be able to use a 500gallon tank as a buffer if you have it in your basement. But I think you will be very disappointed if you put it in your shop and try to heat that also.. Just my opinion from my experience with my elite and storage. Good Luck Jim
 
Echo above. Storage is only useful if your boiler generates more heat than your loads need. Main function of storage is to stop your boiler from idling.
 
Good points above but I'll also answer your question more directly - put the storage tank in your basement. Storage tanks will bleed BTU's once charged so it's best to have them in your heated space if at all possible. That way the heat lost from your tank is not really "lost" at all. It's heating your home.

But as has been said, you're going to need to address your load issues before a storage tank will be of any benefit.
 
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If you're using wood to heat domestic water during summer also consider those lost btus will be dumping into your house as well.
 
Buffer Tanks are rarely larger than 120 gal, 30-50gal being most popular for residential, until you get into comercial /industrial applications. Either way you want it in the house since there are more benefits this way other than eating space.
I hear alot of CAN'T,,,, but yes you can improve your system using storage. Not everyone can afford to just upgrade. Storage DOES NOT have to be these 1000 gal ideas. Bigger only means longer between burn times, but also means more standby losses. Whats the difference between a Froling 20 @ 102kbtu and this empyre 100 @ 120kbtu. Cant he run it just like these indoor boilers?
If you go thru and verify everything in current system is at optimum then you can move onto calculations to see what size tank will suit you. No matter what you will have to burn the required wood to produce the target BTU you need. The tank will cover the very high demand periods. That 100 only holds 60 gallons, so you will have to figure what it will put out on a flat out burn for GPM with a 20-35 degree differential. If your getting 70kbtuh at the 6hr burn rate then thats atleast 7 GPM to charge your tank. Maybe someone else can help with the math also.
How much to upgrade anyways?
and how much can you add storage and efficient pumps and controls for? Alot less for sure.
Ive seen plenty of LP tanks, SS tanks etc for sale from $100 to $500 on CL. say $600 for 3 new top of the line Delta T ECM pumps(if necessary) and $350 in wood and Roxul to do the tank down to .5deg/hr stdbyloss. your labor and materials or a contractor for another $200-$1500 depending what you have them do.
You will have to do max burns while you are home tending, the benefit is you will be burning more efficient to charge tank and now when the tank calls for heat it will also run max for longer times charging the tank. You Might find yourself operating more like an indoor gasser than an OWB. Your empyre 100 claims a 120kbtu max burn rate, not far off of many of these fancy systems with crazy amounts of storage. It comes down to how much time you wanna spend at the stove.
if your trying to charge and calling for max load heat at the same time......see the problem, of course its a loosing battle. Think you should use the backup while charging or maybe there is a design flaw. Nothing wrong with 250 gal either.
Have you done a proper test on the heat loss of your underground lines? This is where I see alot of problems. Should be less than 1 degree loss per 100' with low gpm flow. logstor and uponor have this in their test specs and brochures.
 
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Buffer Tanks are rarely larger than 120 gal, 30-50gal being most popular for residential, until you get into comercial /industrial applications. Either way you want it in the house since there are more benefits this way other than eating space.
I hear alot of CAN'T,,,, but yes you can improve your system using storage. Not everyone can afford to just upgrade. Storage DOES NOT have to be these 1000 gal ideas. Bigger only means longer between burn times, but also means more standby losses. Whats the difference between a Froling 20 @ 102kbtu and this empyre 100 @ 120kbtu. Cant he run it just like these indoor boilers?
If you go thru and verify everything in current system is at optimum then you can move onto calculations to see what size tank will suit you. No matter what you will have to burn the required wood to produce the target BTU you need. The tank will cover the very high demand periods. That 100 only holds 60 gallons, so you will have to figure what it will put out on a flat out burn for GPM with a 20-35 degree differential. If your getting 70kbtuh at the 6hr burn rate then thats atleast 7 GPM to charge your tank. Maybe someone else can help with the math also.
How much to upgrade anyways?
and how much can you add storage and efficient pumps and controls for? Alot less for sure.
Ive seen plenty of LP tanks, SS tanks etc for sale from $100 to $500 on CL. say $600 for 3 new top of the line Delta T ECM pumps(if necessary) and $350 in wood and Roxul to do the tank down to .5deg/hr stdbyloss. your labor and materials or a contractor for another $200-$1500 depending what you have them do.
You will have to do max burns while you are home tending, the benefit is you will be burning more efficient to charge tank and now when the tank calls for heat it will also run max for longer times charging the tank. You Might find yourself operating more like an indoor gasser than an OWB. Your empyre 100 claims a 120kbtu max burn rate, not far off of many of these fancy systems with crazy amounts of storage. It comes down to how much time you wanna spend at the stove.
if your trying to charge and calling for max load heat at the same time......see the problem, of course its a loosing battle. Think you should use the backup while charging or maybe there is a design flaw. Nothing wrong with 250 gal either.
Have you done a proper test on the heat loss of your underground lines? This is where I see alot of problems. Should be less than 1 degree loss per 100' with low gpm flow. logstor and uponor have this in their test specs and brochures.


I still don't see how storage will help if the boiler won't put out enough heat to heat the house. The house will be taking it all, there won't be any heat for the tanks. It likely would help during shoulder seasons, yes, but not in the middle of winter.
 
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lets take today for example, it was 20 deg outside this morning when i lit the boiler at 6, the house went from 73 to 78 deg with the passive solar heat so by 10 am the system is no longer calling for heat so what was left in the burn could have been going to heat storage, correct?
the temp began dropping down to 10 deg so i fired the boiler again at 4pm, to try to get ahead of the cooling temps tonight,as the sun is going down so is the indoor temp to 70 but it takes 2 hours for the boiler to bring the heat back up in the system with a wild 25mph wind to boot.
i understand that my boiler can't satisfy the heat demand and heating storage at the same time but there needs to be a happy medium.
my underground line is factory made im not sure of the brand and i buried down 5'
 
Go downstairs and take a picture of it. Does is look like Logstor or the central brand pipe or does it have the wraps of foil in a corugated tube. Try this on your boiler, slow down the pump speed till it gets to temp, or adjust the flow. by closing valve partly or turning pump off till she is above 165 deg.. You have to monitor, never leave boiler while jump starting temps.
Have you ever had a manual J done. (heat loss calculation)?
 
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