We have multiple zones, so that will help. We've shopped around and have received one firm quote at around $7600 and another estimate between $7100 and $8000 depending on installation of flue. The Accentra (52i) is one of the inserts we are considering. How noisy is yours?
Pellet insert worth it?
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We have multiple zones, so that will help. We've shopped around and have received one firm quote at around $7600 and another estimate between $7100 and $8000 depending on installation of flue. The Accentra (52i) is one of the inserts we are considering. How noisy is yours?
We could do a free standing unit in the sunroom, but that's away from the great room and what we gain in efficiency would be offset by its compromised location. Installation and material would be cheaper though. I'm planning to do maintenance myself except for the yearly cleaning/service (at least initially).
I realize that it won't heat the entire house, but we have multiple zones and if it heats the main living area during the day and helps with the upstairs bedrooms at night I'll be happy. The great room is 2 story which should help with heating the upstairs bedrooms, but it will hurt getting the heat to the kitchen and sunroom. BTW, the fireplace in the great room is NOT a masonry chimney, just a propane gas insert with a flue behind drywall. Here's a floorplan of the first floor, there are bedrooms above the kitchen, dining and living/library:
Never heard of anthracite coal, but will check into it. Isn't that messier than pellets though?
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tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
Wow, I love the layout! BUT to me it sure doesn't look all that conducive to a pellet stove anywhere but the great room, like you said. Not having a masonry chimney throws a real twist into things since I doubt that the metal tubing used for the propane fireplace is suitable for pellets and it most likely is too small in diameter to run the correct tubing inside of it. Unless there is some way to replace the tubing, you're screwed as far as having a pellet insert. I'm sure someone will comment that has more experience in installations than I do, however.
There are no convenient outside walls in logical places for a free stander. With the bedrooms over 3 of the rooms, to me it looks like the only place to locate one would be on that wall between the two doors going into the covered porch. That would mean a vertical pipe in the two story ceiling area, however. Perhaps you could go through that wall and then up through the roof of the covered porch, but it's hard to say without seeing your roof lines.
Most of your heat is going to go up into that very high ceiling area so you would need a substantial heating source to heat the downstairs. That leads me back to a coal stove that typically is capable of putting out at least twice the btu's of any pellet stove when needed. To answer your question about being messier, the answer is NO, despite what many will tell you because they either have no clue or they remember grandpop's old coal-eating monster in the basement. Today's coal burners are no messier than pellets if you learn how to use them. Also, they have the benefit of heating by both forced air and radiant heat, which would do a better job of heating the downstairs.
Good luck
It looks like a hard nut to crack! https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/choose_coal/ This section of Hearth.com has some excellent articles on coal. In addition, > http://www.blaschakcoal.com/residential-uses/coal-stoves , http://nepacrossroads.com/ (a world of info on coal)
There are no convenient outside walls in logical places for a free stander. With the bedrooms over 3 of the rooms, to me it looks like the only place to locate one would be on that wall between the two doors going into the covered porch. That would mean a vertical pipe in the two story ceiling area, however. Perhaps you could go through that wall and then up through the roof of the covered porch, but it's hard to say without seeing your roof lines.
Most of your heat is going to go up into that very high ceiling area so you would need a substantial heating source to heat the downstairs. That leads me back to a coal stove that typically is capable of putting out at least twice the btu's of any pellet stove when needed. To answer your question about being messier, the answer is NO, despite what many will tell you because they either have no clue or they remember grandpop's old coal-eating monster in the basement. Today's coal burners are no messier than pellets if you learn how to use them. Also, they have the benefit of heating by both forced air and radiant heat, which would do a better job of heating the downstairs.
Good luck
It looks like a hard nut to crack! https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/choose_coal/ This section of Hearth.com has some excellent articles on coal. In addition, > http://www.blaschakcoal.com/residential-uses/coal-stoves , http://nepacrossroads.com/ (a world of info on coal)
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Glad we got back on track on page two!
Personally, I have saved tons of money since burning pellets, BUT my house is much easier to heat than yours would be.
You will need to perform your own maintenance because to call someone in regularly would cost too much.
Buying, stacking and filling the stove is the most labor, and it is not that bad. Regular vacuuming/cleaning and simple maintenance will keep a pellet insert functioning great!
On your current gas stove, it does not sound like a complicated problem to get fixed. As someone said earlier, it sounds like the stove is not detecting the fire and cutting off the gas.
Bill
Personally, I have saved tons of money since burning pellets, BUT my house is much easier to heat than yours would be.
You will need to perform your own maintenance because to call someone in regularly would cost too much.
Buying, stacking and filling the stove is the most labor, and it is not that bad. Regular vacuuming/cleaning and simple maintenance will keep a pellet insert functioning great!
On your current gas stove, it does not sound like a complicated problem to get fixed. As someone said earlier, it sounds like the stove is not detecting the fire and cutting off the gas.
Bill
briansol
Minister of Fire
tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
That is crazy considering I got two inserts installed for less than $6000 including a ton of pellets. The flue cost is the real question since I would bet he can't use the one that's installed now. That would involve ripping out drywall from two stories and installing triple wall pipe if it would fit in the wall width.
Is there no way to replace your existing LP stove with a more efficient NG one? Surely, you can get NG for less than $4/gal?We could do a free standing unit in the sunroom, but that's away from the great room and what we gain in efficiency would be offset by its compromised location. Installation and material would be cheaper though. I'm planning to do maintenance myself except for the yearly cleaning/service (at least initially).
I realize that it won't heat the entire house, but we have multiple zones and if it heats the main living area during the day and helps with the upstairs bedrooms at night I'll be happy. The great room is 2 story which should help with heating the upstairs bedrooms, but it will hurt getting the heat to the kitchen and sunroom. BTW, the fireplace in the great room is NOT a masonry chimney, just a propane gas insert with a flue behind drywall. Here's a floorplan of the first floor, there are bedrooms above the kitchen, dining and living/library:
Never heard of anthracite coal, but will check into it. Isn't that messier than pellets though?
Based upon your layout, as you note, you'll be lucky to heat your great room, kitchen, and maybe your sunroom, which is only 1/3rd of your floorspace, so you'll not be replacing your oil burner, but just supplementing it a little. That makes your 25% to 35% savings, much less, since you'll still be burning lots of oil to heat the rest of the house. If your oil bill was $5000, then you might save $1000, might. Take out the $200 in maintenance, and you're down to $800 in potential savings. If you pay $8000 for your unit, then you've got a 10 year payback. In my opinion, the math doesn't work.
RockyMtnHigh
Feeling the Heat
If its a gas insert you will need new venting as the gas insert probably uses 2x3" aluminum flex lines for venting, possibly a 3" intake 4" exhaust or a 4" exhaust only if it is a b-vent unit. That's if it is indeed an insert. A lot of people confuse inserts with zero clearance fireplaces.... If your insert won't hold a pilot, it's likely the thermocouple. If the burner won't come on or shuts off but the unit still holds a pilot you can check your thermopile with a multi-meter. I usually want to see between 400 and 500 millivolts where the thermopile connects to the valve. Any less and you can start to have issues, whether now or in the not so distant future.
Wow, I love the layout! BUT to me it sure doesn't look all that conducive to a pellet stove anywhere but the great room, like you said. Not having a masonry chimney throws a real twist into things since I doubt that the metal tubing used for the propane fireplace is suitable for pellets and it most likely is too small in diameter to run the correct tubing inside of it. Unless there is some way to replace the tubing, you're screwed as far as having a pellet insert. I'm sure someone will comment that has more experience in installations than I do, however.
There are no convenient outside walls in logical places for a free stander. With the bedrooms over 3 of the rooms, to me it looks like the only place to locate one would be on that wall between the two doors going into the covered porch. That would mean a vertical pipe in the two story ceiling area, however. Perhaps you could go through that wall and then up through the roof of the covered porch, but it's hard to say without seeing your roof lines.
Most of your heat is going to go up into that very high ceiling area so you would need a substantial heating source to heat the downstairs. That leads me back to a coal stove that typically is capable of putting out at least twice the btu's of any pellet stove when needed. To answer your question about being messier, the answer is NO, despite what many will tell you because they either have no clue or they remember grandpop's old coal-eating monster in the basement. Today's coal burners are no messier than pellets if you learn how to use them. Also, they have the benefit of heating by both forced air and radiant heat, which would do a better job of heating the downstairs.
Good luck
The existing flue is "D-Series" according to the manual, which is 8 5/8" outer pipe with 5" inner pipe. It is secured with metal wall brackets behind drywall (every 8ft per manual). Two shops told me that they would have to replace the existing flue with Duravent 4in piping, another dealer said they could insert a flexible multi-fuel liner inside my existing flue. The drywall could be cut open to gain access to the existing flue and replace it, but obviously the cost would be much higher if replacement is necessary. The $7K+ figures are from the dealers recommending replacement.
I just took a quick look at coal stoves last night, they do appear to have inserts as well. Not sure if the clearance and flue requirements are the same as for pellet stoves though, if they put out more heat they may have more stringent requirements such as a masonry chimney or more clearance from combustible materials. Duravent Tech Support also expressed concern re: corrosion even with SS piping over time (5-7 yrs). I'll prob stick with pellets, but it wouldn't hurt to explore all the options. Have to check if there are any coal stove dealers in my area.
The cost breakdown is as follows:
52i (in brown porcelain) with zero-clearance kit about $5K
trim plate (existing opening is bigger) $300
Duravent (28' plus brackets, elbows, etc) $700
Installation $1200-$2000
OAK would prob add another $200-$300
A black 52i with a standard install would be closer to the $5200 your friend paid.
We don't have NG here. Agreed, the savings are tough to calculate, hence my hesitation. But I really don't care too much about heating the foyer/dining/sunroom areas to comfortable levels, just the great room, kitchen, office (library), and upstairs bedrooms above those areas. The master bedroom has its own heating zone. The great room has two ceiling fans at about 13ft.
We burned about 1300gals of heating oil over the past 12 months, including hot water.
tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
your existing piping is bigger than I expected. I wouldn't see why you couldn't drop 4" flex or even 3" flex like I have down the pipe. We're not talking high temps in the flue at all.
Just saw the 28' so you would need 4" for sure. Still doable. I wonder why your flue was so big for a gas fireplace.?
Just saw the 28' so you would need 4" for sure. Still doable. I wonder why your flue was so big for a gas fireplace.?
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You're correct, it is a zero clearance fireplace inside drywall, no chimney. It uses 8 5/8" exhaust piping (5" inside).
So if the pilot holds, it's the thermopile? Just tried it and the pilot stayed lit for about an hour, then I tried to start it and it took several tries (waited a few mins in between) to get it to start. Last year it usually ran anywhere from a couple of mins to a half hour or so before shutting down again, I'll see what happens now. I'd be nice to at least use up the propane that's in the tank now even if I convert to something else.
Why so big? Not sure, but that may work out for my benefit if the flex can be used. I called Duravent and they said it should be fine. Then again, their literature refers to the flex within the context of a masonry chimney.
Make sure you reverse the fans. You might want to consider a Geospring heat pump water heater, so you can turn off your oil burner in the Summer. The Geospring was only $1000 at my Lowes, last year, and you can get a $300 tax credit, and your state or utility may have a matching credit. I think with all the credits, in some states it's free. And, I'd seriously consider the flex liner inside the existing 8". Good luck.
briansol
Minister of Fire
if you're not masonry (in sheetrock only) i'm not sure that either liner or normal piping solutions are viable... The running of a liner in the existing outer pipe sounds the safest.
RockyMtnHigh
Feeling the Heat
The thermocouple creates enough millivolts to power the part of the valve that runs the pilot. If it doesn't do it's job, the valve shuts off the gas to the pilot hood. If the pilot holds fine, and you turn on your thermostat/switch etc. and the burner won't light or stay light it is generally the thermopile. The thermopile uses the heat from the pilot to generate the millivolts required to power the valve to allow gas to the burner. If it doesn't generate enough millivolts the valve will cut off gas to the burner. I'd check it with a multimeter before just buying a new one though as if it is good you may have a problem with the valve, which is rare.
tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
Actually, if someone like a 'tin knocker' got creative, I bet he could figure out a simple way to use the space between the new flex liner and the existing pipe as your OAK (outside air kit) air supply. Like what Bixby setup used to do.
RockyMtnHigh
Feeling the Heat
Man running a stainless pipe through 5x8 direct vent would be a PITA, even with a vertical run. I've done it on B-vent fireplaces though so not impossible. If it were me and I was going to spend that much coin. I'd rip the fireplace out entirely and build an alcove so I could run 4" pellet vent all the way up. Easier to service, larger hopper, prettier finish etc. You could probably do the demo work yourself and have somebody else do the hearth/drywall if you weren't comfortable with it.
TJ, a lot of Zero clearance gas fireplaces use 5"x8" direct vent pipe. Some are 4"x6" as well. It usually depends on how they are vented etc. I've never been a fan of gutting Zero clearance fireplaces for an insert though, whether they are wood or gas.
TJ, a lot of Zero clearance gas fireplaces use 5"x8" direct vent pipe. Some are 4"x6" as well. It usually depends on how they are vented etc. I've never been a fan of gutting Zero clearance fireplaces for an insert though, whether they are wood or gas.
tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
He said 'It uses 8 5/8" exhaust piping (5" inside).' That's enough room to run FLEX pipe up it. I don't know what the EVL recommendations are for the insert he's considering but you would cut the total vertical run in half so maybe even 3" would be OK. My inserts start out vertical so there is nothing BUT vertical to contribute to EVL.
RockyMtnHigh
Feeling the Heat
Well I'm not saying it wouldn't fit, I'm saying it would be a pain in the ass lol. You'd be surprised how much something as simple as a seam or a rivet in an area that size can hang you up when you are dropping a liner. When I say 5x8 I mean what you were getting at, it's about 5 5/8" inner, 8 5/8" outer diameter. Depending on how old of a Heatilator it is likely Simpson duravent direct vent or Heatilator DVP or Heatilator VP series pipe. At the altitude I live at though, we never mess with 3" pipe, it just doesn't vent as well as it should here. I'm way more familiar with 4" pipe.
The main reason I don't like gutting ZC fireboxes is A: They have very little insulating value (for clearance purposes) after taken apart far enough to put a solid fuel heater in, B: The firebox floor is designed to hold, maybe 50 lbs worth of gas logs, a burner, a little refractory and some fake embers. Unless you find a better way to support the 200 lb plus stove in there, it will slowly start sinking and sinking. I avoid it at all costs personally. There are ways to get it done, but it drives the install cost pretty high when you have to break out a welder or create a substantial support system.
The main reason I don't like gutting ZC fireboxes is A: They have very little insulating value (for clearance purposes) after taken apart far enough to put a solid fuel heater in, B: The firebox floor is designed to hold, maybe 50 lbs worth of gas logs, a burner, a little refractory and some fake embers. Unless you find a better way to support the 200 lb plus stove in there, it will slowly start sinking and sinking. I avoid it at all costs personally. There are ways to get it done, but it drives the install cost pretty high when you have to break out a welder or create a substantial support system.
tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
I understand now about the terminology. I think the OP would be a lot better off dumping his propane heating system for heat pumps or like someone said, if he can afford that house, he should go for a geothermal system and be a lot happier and warmer. I understand about supporting the insert. I've read where people even pour in a cement layer to hold it. PITA!
Former Farmer
Minister of Fire
I have a cheaper glowboy insert that is close to 9 years old. This thing can hold an entire bag of pellets. It heats like crazy and is easy to repair.
I used it as pretty much primary heat for years. Now it rarely gets used because of geothermal.
Spending 6k on a stove is kinda steep, I would apply that $ towards a geothermal setup.
I used it as pretty much primary heat for years. Now it rarely gets used because of geothermal.
Spending 6k on a stove is kinda steep, I would apply that $ towards a geothermal setup.
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