EPA - New Rules, Many Stoves will become obsolete

My theme song for 2014 through 2016.....

smwilliamson said:

The biggest part of the rule that I'm excited about is the fact that all stoves will now have to state their efficiency. No more default 78% and hide away the real numbers. This will help some models and hurt some others but many makers hide the fact that their stoves (and we are talking about very well known brands here cause I've seen the redacted documents) are simply very inefficient. Anyone know of an insert that was recently resigned? Just sayin...

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This is not good for Dealers is it?

According to the specs, some of the Enviros are only 1.6 or 1.7 and 2.0 g/hr so will some of your showroom stoves be headed of the scrap heap?

Enviro Empress

Efficiency 83.5%. EPA Tested 1.7 g/hr emissions.

Enviro Mini

Heats 600 to 1200 sq. ft. 75% Efficiency. EPA Tested 1.6 g/hr

Enviro M55 Steel

Nicest pellet flame in the industry! 55,000 BTU’sHeats up to 2500 sq. ft. 76.6% Efficiency. EPA tested 2.0 g/hr emissions

Enviro M55 Cast

Nicest pellet flame in the industry! 55,000 BTU’s. Heats up to 2500 sq. ft. 76.6% Efficiency. EPA tested 2.0 g/hr emissions

Not all government regulations are bad. If it wasn't for government regulations our kids would be working for a factory at 7 years old while getting paid company script rather than wages. Without government regulations manufacturing companies could dump toxic waste onto the bare ground like they used to. Without government regulations we would have cars that are much less safe and more polluting than current ones are. To be certain that there are government regulations themselves that are wasteful, onerous and just plain wrong. There are also government actions that are illegal or blatant power grabs and that should get the people in charge thrown in prison such as Wyoming, TSA, NSA etc. But when I step outside my house in Montana in a town with 3,000 people living in it and I can't see a mile because of the haze of smoke from peoples inefficient and unclean pellet and woodstoves then I do wonder if something couldn't be done. When I further see that the technology to make the stoves burn cleaner has been available for decades and is cheap as can be then yes, I do think that some regulations requiring the manufacturers to clean things up might be a good thing. I am willing to pay $250 more for a $3k stove if doing so means that I can breathe when I step outside and more importantly that I will be participating in a way to leave my kids a cleaner world rather than a dirty cesspool. If my 20+ year old stove will eventually no longer be allowed to be used then so be it, it has had a good life and provided a lot of heat keeping people warm though due to grandfathering I won't likely have to throw my stove out. These are of course my opinions and your opinions may differ but as has been pointed out, these rules are in draft form and open to public commentary, so go and register and make your opinion known.

MountainSean said:

Without government regulations manufacturing companies could dump toxic waste onto the bare ground like they used to. Without government regulations we would have cars that are much less safe and more polluting than current ones are. To be certain that there are government regulations themselves that are wasteful, onerous and just plain wrong.

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I do not believe that government should be doing this controlling that you suggest. I think WE the people could take care of most of that. And We can do that by getting educated. Today the majority of the people just follow our leaders blindly without thinking. I can tell you that if you take the best car in the world and give it to someone who does not care the pollution levels will still be high. On the other hand if you take someone who cares this will not occur. Education is the KEY not the government.

smwilliamson said:

It's 2 grams or under per hour...it's not right away either...maybe 3 years, maybe 5 years, maybe 8 years..

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There are two options in the proposed regulations, in two or three phases over either 5 or 8 years to ultimately get to a 1.3 g/hr limit. They are specifically asking for comments to help decide which option to take.

Either way, the first phase requires emissions of less than 4.5 g/hr, which they say most pellet stoves (221 out of 224 in Washington State's certification list) already meet. I don't know how many pellet boilers/furnaces are already compliant with the first phase numbers.

Also, they say that existing models can be made until their current 5-year certification expires, so the manufacturer doesn't have to shut down the day after this takes effect.

Hello

I recall that when the new cars had to meet the new EPA requirements and micro computers had to be installed to monitor the emissions. Depending upon the year of your car say 1996 to 2000 you could have 2 systems fail and still get a sticker. In order to get the sticker you have to reset the computer and then drive your car thru all the drive cycles to reset each sensor monitor. I have done it in 25 miles by doing combined highway and stop and go driving. Then get the sticker before driving anymore, which can cause more failures to register in the computer. Some sensors rest much faster than others! Just understanding each drive cycle to reset each sensor takes an engineer to figure out! The car manufactures are very reluctant to give out this information and the people working there do not understand it for the most part. I had to stand around the car shop and refuse to go home until I got the technical docs on how it all works!

Anyway, perfecting all these changes and the computer to be reliable was a manufacturing nightmare. Many people did not buy new cars for years until all the bugs were ironed out. Just having new EPA approoved stoves in your showroom does not mean they will be big sellers, in fact they may go bust! I am not so sure I want a black box computer in my pellet stove and maybe paying $400 dollers for a new one evertime it goes bad!

How much more will the stove cost? Most of you know a few years ago you could get a rebate from both State and Fed income tax if your stove was a % efficient. Most of the time the companies simply had to send the gov their information and their company was put on the approved list.

A rebate from the government? Getting my own money back? They shouldn't take it in the first place.

BrotherBart said:

The year I got the rebate it just covered what I would have owed in taxes. So I got your money back, not mine.

Thanks!

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Now there is some sound logic lol

chken said:

First, these are proposed standards for the future. They won't effect existing stoves.

As with any new proposed regulation, it's a wait and see. We have to see what the effect will be upon mfrs of wood and pellet stoves. What will they have to do to meet the new standards, and what will they charge consumers.

I don't see the new standards as being all that onerous. They propose 2 ways to meet the new standard, one: starting at 4.5grams/hr, then 1.3grams/hr in 5 years. I think it's fair to say any pellet stove selling on the market today meets 4.5grams/hr. Most are probably in the 2grams/hr range. My Piazzetta is 2.3grams/hr. I know there were better performers when I went shopping, in the 1.x gram/hr range. 5 years is plenty of time for mfrs to improve their stoves.

The second possible implementation of the new rule seems even easier, is 4.5grams/hr now, 2.5 grams/hr in 3 years, and 1.3grams/hr in 8years! Again, that's plenty of time. My existing stove would meet that rule even if it were sold new 7 years from now.

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With Paromax .06 g /hr. efficiency rating from the boys in Ottawa, this stove looks highly efficient 8 years out. Would gasification be in the future for some of the manufacturers?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely... Lord Acton 1887. Seems to be an age old problem.

Lake Girl said:

Which means a very large amount of the stoves currently burning will not be able to be serviced or sold with a home... if that wording is used.
Dirty Dave posted this link in another thread - lots wouldn't meet the standard of 1.3.
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/air/indoor_woodsmoke/pdfs/Wood_Pellet.pdf

On average, what I have noticed is the higher BTU stoves have a corresponding higher pm value - so you could have 3 or 4 small pellet stoves but not one larger one? Any consideration to particulate matter to BTU ratio?

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Lake Girl said:

EPA approved as of December 2013
http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf

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Unless i missed it, i never seem to be on any list.

boomhour said:

With Paromax .06 g /hr. efficiency rating from the boys in Ottawa, this stove looks highly efficient 8 years out. Would gasification be in the future for some of the manufacturers?

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Theoretically this seems the best technology of all to get the most out of the fuel with the least emissions and evidently Paromax has accomplished just that to a degree and with some success but it really needs to be adopted by a company with the means to provide more R&D and better support than what I`ve read about. .

This could kill the wood and pellet appliance industry. There is not a current stove on the market that would pass these proposed EPA Standards. Thousands of jobs will be lost. The emissions specs are not the problem. It is the testing procedure. Under the current procedure, some stoves would pass. However, a lot of manufacturers would be forced to close (just like what happened in the 80s when the EPA released the first NSPS) and thousands will lose their jobs.

The problem is the new testing procedure that does not take averages of the four burn settings (low, medium low, medium high, and high). This is where is gets complicated. It is pretty much going to take the least efficient setting (high burn) then do more burns at that setting and then take the average of that. Very confusing but under this, no stove will pass. Not even a current pellet stove would pass.

The big joke is the "environmental benefits". These new stoves will be SOOOOO EXPENSIVE that most will not be able to afford them. They will instead keep their old units that are pouring out high amounts of carbon. It will actually make the air quality a lot worse. But hey, whatever makes people think it's better is all they care about.

stoveguy2esw said:

we're working on it the other manufacturers got in to the big box by underbidding us. not because they had better stats.

ive started digesting the requirements (aint easy to sit and read, very dry stuff) when the rubber hits the road though , we'll be there aint gonna be easy , but its going to get done, that's how we roll at ESW

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Lower your air flow through the device and add an ash extractor and a larger and better heat exchanger. Mission accomplished.

I was going to buy a 2 cf stove this year because my CFM-FW240007 is so small. I guess a better wait before buying anything. I sure don't want the government to knock on my door and take my brand new stove.

DamienBricka said:

I was going to buy a 2 cf stove this year because my CFM-FW240007 is so small. I guess a better wait before buying anything. I sure don't want the government to knock on my door and take my brand new stove.

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They can't. This is not even law yet. Just open for public comment. Even so, it would not go into effect until 2015 I believe. You will be safe.

begreen said:

And there will be a 3 or 5 yr grace period. To me this is a pretty silly "the sky is falling" thread. Cleaning up emissions helps us all. It helps dealers sell new stoves, we get more heat from our fuel, the air doesn't stink of wood smoke, kids asthma rate will hopefully start reversing from record highs, and hearth.com gets a whole new set of posters trying to figure out this new tech. Stop worrying folks, no one is going to take your stove out of your burning hot hands. But maybe, just maybe you will like the next gen of burners. I certainly like what reduced emissions and greater fuel economy is doing to cars and trucks.

My proposal to reduce emissions: Provide a $200 incentive toward installing a wood shed. Dry wood will clean up emissions for all woodstoves, including older units.

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I agree with everything you said with the exception of helping dealers sell more stoves. If it is adds more costs than sales will go down. And as far as saving money because they will be more efficient I doubt the majority will save anything since to achieve such efficiencies the stoves will have to be very clean....which we all know many people don't have any idea what that means.

IHATEPROPANE said:

And as far as saving money because they will be more efficient I doubt the majority will save anything since to achieve such efficiencies the stoves will have to be very clean....which we all know many people don't have any idea what that means.

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That is why the government should not get involved with these stupid regulations. I believe that education is the key to everything. After being on this forum for a few month I have learned to make my little stove burn better. Did I ask for government involvement. NO. We as a society have become enabled and we want the government to solve all of our problems. It never works and never will work. IMHO

This!

begreen said:

My proposal to reduce emissions: Provide a $200 incentive toward installing a wood shed. Dry wood will clean up emissions for all woodstoves, including older units.

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90% of the wood burners I know don't season and store their wood properly. It is a critical issue with cat stoves.