Newbie...need install help

nocams · Jan 18, 2014

Hello Gents,

I am new here so I will apologize now for any dumb questions...

Been trolling for a while trying to learn as much as I can to eliminate as many of those dumb questions as possible. Here are my details.

2000sq ft very well built house with R45 Attic, R30 walls, R19 floors currently heated with 4 ton dual fuel heat pump. Buying $400 a propane and electric bill averages $200 a month with 50 gallon electric HW heater.Heat Pump heat exchanger is rusted out after 17 yrs but air conditioning side of heat pump is still good. Thinking of putting in a outdoor wood furnace to squeeze another 5 yrs or so out of the air side of the heat pump, eliminate $400 propane and cut electric bill down. Also when I do buy another heat pump I can save $2K by buying a regular plain heat pump instead of a duel fuel propane heat pump. Wood furnace would be used for about 5 months out of the year during coldest part of winter, heat pump would be used Spring and Fall for mild temps. It was -5 last Tuesday morning on our mtn. I currently cut about 10 ricks of wood per year and have unlimited amounts of free wood that I enjoy cutting for my fireplace. I would still use the fireplace only for the looks, and not primary heat after installing the outdoor wood furnace. I also want to heat my DHW for further electric bill reduction.

1) My furnace would be approx 100' from house so 1" Urecon / Logstor pipes or 3/4"

2) I am thinking about a TN local made stove, " Hoss " 225 which is a smaller version of the Hoss 300. I think it has 225 gallons of water and probably around 200K BTU.

3) How big of a heat exchanger for my duct work, been told to get as big as I could to fill up the duct and keep the air flow good. How far in front of the heat pump does the HE go ? I have a package unit heat pump so everything is outside, then about 2 feet before it goes under the house crawl space. I have looked at HE on fleabay and even the same size comes in several BTU ratings I think depending on how many rows in the HE ? I think my 4 ton duel fuel unit is rated at 48K BTU on heat pump and 98K on propane @ 80% efficiency so how many BTU's do I need for my HE in the duct ?

4) When the insulated pex line terminate under the house and come up put of the ground do I go from there straight to the water heater or the HE in the duct work ? Do I put ball valves at the HE in the duct and turn it off during mild temps so I can only heat my DHW ? At the termination of the Urecon insulated 5" pipe to get to my HE in the duct and DHW do I use regular PEX and wrap with foam insulation from HD or Lowes ? My DHW heater is approx 40 feet from where the HE would be in my duct work.

5) Should I use a 20-30 plate HE for my DHW or one of the tube in a tube copper HE that are about 30" long ? I had heard that the plate exchangers have small channels and can get clogged up ? How would I mount either in a crawl space at my DHW heater, hang from floor joists close to DHW heater ?How do you insulate the HE ?

6) How deep to bury Urecon 5" OD pipe in TN and what else goes in the ditch besides thermostat wire and 14/2 for 115VAC wire for pump and light on side of wood furnace. I assume I would use 3/4" conduit to run electrical and thermostat wire in as well.

Many thanks and again sorry for all the questions fellas !

Willman · Jan 18, 2014

Check the flow rates of any diameter pipe that you will use to make sure it will flow the btu's that your boiler will produce.You don't want to introduce a choke point that is costly to remedy.

Coal Reaper · Jan 19, 2014

Since you have a fireplace and enjoy the ambiance of a fire why not just get a quality wood insert? This is assuming you dont mind bringing firewood into the house AND the fireplace is centrally located or positioned where you could distribute heat easily. Your heat load might not justify the expense of a OWB install. I would think your money would be better spent on a solar system for DHW.
Other than that, be ready for most hear to steer you away from that boiler you are considering. Also, 1" lines will be hard on the circ pump forthat length of run. Look into 1-1/4" and spray foam.

Tennman · Jan 19, 2014

Welcome, don't worry about dumb questions, most of us started with about zero knowledge.

1) from a guy who dug up his underground twice, use the biggest line you can afford. Lower flow velocity, smallest pump, lowest head losses. Taco has a very good data sheet for sizing the pump. I built a spreadsheet of the data sheet you're welcome to have. For that distance it will probably be 1", but after what I went through other than cost I don't see any downside to 1.25 dia for long runs.
2) I was going to buy a Hardy until I found this site and got some education. Read about more efficient boilers here and compare purchase prices. You'll be surprised.
3) I put my HX at the end of the plenum before duct work started splitting off. Measure that cross section then you'll size the thickness to your your final heat load for your home based on your load calcs.
4) I did foam in trench so where I come thru the foundation the lines in my root cellar is covered with those split foam insulation wraps. I'll let others speak to the HX vs water heater. We don't do DHW.
5) someone else
6) I went about 24" more for tractor roll over protection than freeze line. No idea what the freeze line is for your area but should be easy to google. I trenched with a mini back how so the difference between 18" and 24" was really nothing. I screwed up and didn't do a data line. If if was me I'd lay 1" so in the future I could pull whatever I needed. Now i need to do a small trench for a data line. Bummer.

I wasted a lot of time and money rushing to install our system. Take your time a start stacking wood now.

nocams · Jan 19, 2014

nocams said:
Hello Gents,

I am new here so I will apologize now for any dumb questions...

Been trolling for a while trying to learn as much as I can to eliminate as many of those dumb questions as possible. Here are my details.

2000sq ft very well built house with R45 Attic, R30 walls, R19 floors currently heated with 4 ton dual fuel heat pump. Buying $400 a propane and electric bill averages $200 a month with 50 gallon electric HW heater.Heat Pump heat exchanger is rusted out after 17 yrs but air conditioning side of heat pump is still good. Thinking of putting in a outdoor wood furnace to squeeze another 5 yrs or so out of the air side of the heat pump, eliminate $400 propane and cut electric bill down. Also when I do buy another heat pump I can save $2K by buying a regular plain heat pump instead of a duel fuel propane heat pump. Wood furnace would be used for about 5 months out of the year during coldest part of winter, heat pump would be used Spring and Fall for mild temps. It was -5 last Tuesday morning on our mtn. I currently cut about 10 ricks of wood per year and have unlimited amounts of free wood that I enjoy cutting for my fireplace. I would still use the fireplace only for the looks, and not primary heat after installing the outdoor wood furnace. I also want to heat my DHW for further electric bill reduction.

1) My furnace would be approx 100' from house so 1" Urecon / Logstor pipes or 3/4"

2) I am thinking about a TN local made stove, " Hoss " 225 which is a smaller version of the Hoss 300. I think it has 225 gallons of water and probably around 200K BTU.

3) How big of a heat exchanger for my duct work, been told to get as big as I could to fill up the duct and keep the air flow good. How far in front of the heat pump does the HE go ? I have a package unit heat pump so everything is outside, then about 2 feet before it goes under the house crawl space. I have looked at HE on fleabay and even the same size comes in several BTU ratings I think depending on how many rows in the HE ? I think my 4 ton duel fuel unit is rated at 48K BTU on heat pump and 98K on propane @ 80% efficiency so how many BTU's do I need for my HE in the duct ?

4) When the insulated pex line terminate under the house and come up put of the ground do I go from there straight to the water heater or the HE in the duct work ? Do I put ball valves at the HE in the duct and turn it off during mild temps so I can only heat my DHW ? At the termination of the Urecon insulated 5" pipe to get to my HE in the duct and DHW do I use regular PEX and wrap with foam insulation from HD or Lowes ? My DHW heater is approx 40 feet from where the HE would be in my duct work.

5) Should I use a 20-30 plate HE for my DHW or one of the tube in a tube copper HE that are about 30" long ? I had heard that the plate exchangers have small channels and can get clogged up ? How would I mount either in a crawl space at my DHW heater, hang from floor joists close to DHW heater ?How do you insulate the HE ?

6) How deep to bury Urecon 5" OD pipe in TN and what else goes in the ditch besides thermostat wire and 14/2 for 115VAC wire for pump and light on side of wood furnace. I assume I would use 3/4" conduit to run electrical and thermostat wire in as well.

Many thanks and again sorry for all the questions fellas !

nocams · Jan 19, 2014

Thanks for the replies thus far fellas ! I am more than willing to use 1 1/4" Urecon if I need it to use a smaller pump and get the BTU's that my boiler would produce. Just need to look into that Taco pump sizing chart and find out the diff in 1" and 1 1/4" flow rate for pex. I also assume I want oxygen barrier pex correct ? The Hoss uses a Wilo pump and not sure of the specs on it. Also my boiler will probably be about 8 feet higher than the HE's for duct and DHW so at least I have gravity helping and not hurting me on the pump size too. Will measure my plenum today so I know what size HE I need for width and height, still not sure how many BTU's I need though ? How do I size the HE for the duct work as far as BTU's ? Again, my 4 ton dual fuel is 48K BTU on heat pump and 98K on propane and has ran fine for 17 yrs with plenty of BTU's to heat the house comfortably and quickly if needed. So, would a 100K BTU HE be about what I need for the HE in the duct to match the propane output of my current dual fuel heat pump ?

Willman, how do I calculate the flow rate and btus to make sure I am not choking my boiler output with too small pex ?

Coal Reaper, the fireplace is centrally located and I am fully aware of how efficient those inserts can be but they totally ruin the look of a stone fireplace to me. Just don't like the thoughts of a fire behind glass doors. When I built this house I took all that into consideration and just did not like the thoughts of a insert hiding my fire. The fireplace is all about looks and ambiance as you noted. I have also considered solar.... wonder what a system would cost to keep up with a 50 gallon DHW heater load and family of 4 ? Keep in mind my kwh is some of the lowest in the country with that cheap govt TVA power. I think my kwh is .08 cents. However, with that being said my kwh rates ahve doubled or tripled in the past 15 yrs too. Propane was .70 cents a gallon too and now I pay around $2 so thinking about my ROI and the fact that I can get this boiler for $2K I am leaning hard in doing it. I realize it will cost me around $4K total by the time I install and can save around $1K a year in propane and electric plus have more DHW. Also when I replace my old dual fuel heat pump with a regular heat pump I will save $2K which will pay for the boiler.

If anyone has plans or prints showing the runs to the DHW and HE for the duct that would be great. Just need to know how many ball, check or any other valves needed as well as how to mount and insulate the HE for the DHW in a crawl space.

Coal Reaper · Jan 19, 2014

Do some research on how long you might be able to expect THAT boiler to last for. If its not much more than 5 years (not unheard of) then you really arent getting yourself ahead a great deal. If i was only saving $1k/yr, i wouldnt bother with a boiler.

nocams · Jan 19, 2014

Coal Reaper,
The Hoss has a 1/2" thick fire box and seems very well made. The one I am getting is only 2 years old and was hardly used due to neighbors complaining of smoke. He tried to use this thing in a subdivision ! Surely it would last 10-15 yrs I would think and at that point in time I could buy another and simply hook it up or just go all Solar at that point. I would think in 10-15yrs Solar may be so cheap that we might all have them on our roofs..... ? And that $1K annual cost savings is based on current propane and electric rates....remember mine have tripled in the 15 yrs I have been at this location. What if they triple again.... ? The way the govt is printing $75-85 billion a month our money will soon be worthless anyway. I greatly appreciate all the help and comments in helping me decide. Still smoking it over, haha !!!

Coal Reaper · Jan 19, 2014

Not trying to discourage you so much as raise all points to be considered. I know its not much help. The only other thing ican say is to make sure you account for all costs. Circs, plumbing lines and fitting, heat exchanger, water treatment, insulation, add some more for fittings, sidearm or DHW coil/exchanger, and a little cushion (mostly for more fittings). Idk if oxygen barrior is necessary with open systems. Cant hurt but might be able to get by without.

nocams · Jan 20, 2014

Coal Reaper,
This is great, you are making me think about everything instead of just jumping in and then having buyer's regret. I greatly appreciate your help ! The other $2K I mentioned above was for my install cost. I was thinking around $1K for the lines, ( Urecon ), and then another $1K for the HE in the duct, HE for DHW, fittings, conduit and wire from house to OWB. Circ is built in on the back of the stove, it is a Wilo brand pump. So.... around $4K total investment with $2K of payback immedietely from buying the regular heat pump instead of the higher cost dual fuel heat pump that I am replacing after 17yrs of service. Plus I bet I can still run the house about 4-6 degrees warmer than I do now and still save $1K a year based on current propane and electric rates. I am starting to lean harder bud so if you can think of anything else I have not thought about please tell me now before I go spend that $$$.

jeffesonm · Jan 20, 2014

Sorry if I missed it, but do you know what your heat load is for your house? That would be a good place to start. You could use this calculator, or start with how much propane you use.

If your heat load isn't too high, I will throw in another vote for the wood insert. You can get a used one for a few hundred bucks, install it in a weekend and have it paid back by the end of this heating season. Hardly any parts to break, works when the power is out, puts out a lot of heat. I had the exact same concerns you did before putting mine in... didn't want to miss the warmth of an open fireplace (ambiance, not heat), the smell of wood burning, the look, etc. Well I went ahead and did the insert anyway and I found I really didn't miss it at all. Many of the new inserts have big front windows so it still looks like a fire, and you open to the door and reload often enough to get the smell.

Not trying to discourage the boiler... I'm planning one myself now, but it's as much for a hobby as it is for heat or money saved.

nocams · Jan 21, 2014

Using about 200 gallons or $400 annually for propane and electric averages $220 in fall thru spring.

NCFord · Jan 21, 2014

Being in TN you are somewhat close to my latitude so your heating needs are similar to mine. It can be more of a hobby in the south, but at least your cutting you propane bill. I just installed a HOSS 300 last year for a guy who just upgraded from and empire OWB. He is heating about 3500 sq. feet and was paying about $4000 per year in propane. He paid for his boiler in 2 years. His boiler is about 120 feet from the house and he just used 1 inch and it seems to work though the lines were sized for the much smaller empire boiler. If you can get a good price on the boiler I would go for it.

maple1 · Jan 21, 2014

With fuel bills that low, I think I would do the insert & maybe a mini-split. If you're looking for ROI, that will be a looooonnggg time coming with a boiler.

mikey · Jan 21, 2014

I live in a 1762 colonial in the northeast and have a jotul f100 in a brick fireplace that provides a good amount of heat; if you go that route make sure the pipe is heavy gage, insulated, with a block off plate at the lintel. Wood furnaces are often dirty and illegal in many states and communities' good luck.

nocams · Jan 21, 2014

Totally understand about lower cost of insert and I do already have the fireplace, but.... the way the fireplace is in the living area I would roast since my end of the couch is closest to the fire and the rest of the house would be too cold I would think ? When the fireplace is stoked now that is what can happen on very cold nights. I also do not like the thoughts of a fire all night while sleeping. We usually let the fire die down right before bed, maybe it is just me but always been leary of a fire while sleeping.

With a insert I also could not heat my DHW which makes up about 30% of my electric bill and with a 50 gallon DHWH we sometimes can run short on HW when everyone's schedule demands we all shower over a short period of time.

maple1.... if you read my thread complete you will see that I am going to be able to get into this OWB for $4K total and I am saving $2K by being able to replace my old dual fuel heat pump with a $2K less expensive regular heat pump with no aux heat. So.... first year I spend $4K for the OWB and buy the cheaper HP that I have to have anyway for AC in the summer and then save $1K per year afterward for no propane and lower electric. So Year 3 I am even and this is all based on propane and electric rates not changing from now and we all kow that ain't happening !!!

They have tripled in 17 yrs I have been at this location.

Again fellas, this is great conversation and I am loving all the great feedback, please keep it coming. I still have not bought the OWB yet, haha !

If I do I still need some technical help on sizing my pex for a 100' run and want to make sure I get the right BTU HE for my duct and DHWH.... Also, I am assuming I run the outlet from the OWB to the DHWH first, then back to my HE in the duct the return to OWB with ball valves at each HE if I need to isolate or control flow thru them ? Which OWB company has the best technical help in your opinion ?

maple1 · Jan 21, 2014

How much will your new (regular) heat pump cost, and how much wood are you expecting or hoping to burn with the OWB? Are you sure you've factored in ALL the OWB costs? I think just good pipe alone for a 100' run would run around $1500.

nocams · Jan 21, 2014

maple1, regular 4 ton HP = $4500.... Dual Fuel = $6500. Currently using around 10 ricks a year in the fireplace so betting about the same for a OWB. I think the 100' for good Urecon 1" line will run me around$1K tops. Seems to run around $7-11 per foot from what I have seen so far.

Have a friend down the road from me who has been burning a Taylor for 6 yrs now and our houses are about the same size but mine is much better insulated. He also has terrible underground pipe setup... melts snow on top of the ground and his pipes are 3 feet deep. Bet he is losing 30+ degrees to the ground and he burns around 12 ricks a year. He just wrapped his pex with the foam sleeves from HD or Lowes and then stuck it all in a 4" PVC pipe. Don't think he even seperated the two lines from each other, just wrapped everything up in one foam sleeve. I asked him the other day if he was still happy with the OWB and would he do it again... ? The house is for sale and when he moves to build again he is buying another OWB, so he is happy.

nocams · Jan 22, 2014

Just ran across the bottom of the screen on the TV....... Record prices being charged for Propane and NG right now. Just waiting now for my Jan electric bill to help me finalize my decision to go with a OWB or not. I bet that Tuesday morning a few weeks back when it was -5 here will do a number on my electric bill ! Kept the thermostat on 65 day and 60 night just like always so I could see the diff. in record cold and how it affects the electric bill. Dual Fuel Heat Pump ran quite a bit of propane too, checked the tank gauge before and after that week of record cold.

maple1 · Jan 22, 2014

So you're looking at a $8500 outlay, for a new heat pump and the OWB you're looking at.

For the $4000 estimated for the OWB, you could easily put in a new insert, and a HPWH. I think.

You won't save much on heating DHW if you'll only be doing it for the 5 months you'd be running the boiler. Our 80 gallon electric heater only uses $30/mo @ $0.17/kwh in the two summer months we run just it. I still think you might be underestimating all that is involved with getting an OWB in, and the wood it will use. I would just have a very hard time justifying an OWB with heating bills that low - and it will be grossly oversized which may present other operational inefficiencies. I can certainly understand wanting to get off the propane, I would get rid of it too - but don't think an OWB is what I would do.

As long as you take everything into consideration though - it's your choice.

nocams · Jan 26, 2014

Okay fellas, still not decided if I want to put in a OWB or not.....The used one for $2K is still sitting there.

If not my next decision is to either go back with the dual fuel propane heat pump like I have had for 17 yrs or with a regular heat pump and resistance heat for aux heat when the heat pump is not efficient enough to provide the heat needed when temps drop down to 20 or less. My old unit was 10 SEER and both new units are rated @ 14SEER so should see immediate reduction in electric usage.

Dual Fuel unit cost is $6500 regular HP cost is $5000. Propane usage is around $400 a year now. I buy summer fill propane @ average of $2 gallon for now. Our electric rate is around .10 per kwh I think. I am starting to lean heavily toward a standard HP since propane costs have increased from the .79 cents per gallon to average of $2 a gallon over the past 10 yrs and headed to who knows what in the next 10. If I go with a standard HP I could also go to a OWB down the road if I decided too. Would not even consider a OWB in the future with the dual fuel unit since I spent the additional $1500 to install the dual fuel, UNLESS Propane costs get crazy. So what to do gents..... ? I greatly appreciate all the help I have been given here !!!

Newbie...need install help

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