Cars? sedans.

Its all how you view a vehicle. If you think of a car as a fridge, its just there to move you from point a to point b, then the Japanese stuff will fit the bill. If you care about how a car drives, what it feels like, how it sounds, that is why German cars still sell. I just looked at the CRV and Tiguan. CRV is and feels tinny, plasticy, its loud, etc. All the things even the base Tiguan is not. I own a Toyota and its great at what it does but it is a souless metal box at the end of the day. Driving it is like driving a couch and when it leaves I have no attachment to it. Regarding reliability, the Japanese stuff does better with the typical "neglect" schedule most people seem to follow. German stuff requires your attention, and without service when it needs it, can get expensive quickly. I've owned mostly German stuff for 25 years and found that service needs to be pretty average and normal, if you pay attention. Its like Grandpa always said, "Its a good thing we all want different things, or we'd all be chasing Grandma"

rwthomas1 said:

Its all how you view a vehicle. If you think of a car as a fridge, its just there to move you from point a to point b, then the Japanese stuff will fit the bill. If you care about how a car drives, what it feels like, how it sounds, that is why German cars still sell. I just looked at the CRV and Tiguan. CRV is and feels tinny, plasticy, its loud, etc. All the things even the base Tiguan is not. I own a Toyota and its great at what it does but it is a souless metal box at the end of the day. Driving it is like driving a couch and when it leaves I have no attachment to it. Regarding reliability, the Japanese stuff does better with the typical "neglect" schedule most people seem to follow. German stuff requires your attention, and without service when it needs it, can get expensive quickly. I've owned mostly German stuff for 25 years and found that service needs to be pretty average and normal, if you pay attention. Its like Grandpa always said, "Its a good thing we all want different things, or we'd all be chasing Grandma"

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The "japanese" (since many of them are made in the country they are sold in) cars do better on a regular maintenance schedule as well. It's more than just requiring attention it's the rapid pace at which past a certain age the German cars seem to require excessive maintenance and not to mention the cost of the parts. Something as simple as a coil pack will often cost 2-3x as much on a german car than a japanese car.

http://corp.carmd.com/2013-manufacturer-vehicle-ranking.htm?subId=232

Notice the top 10 reliable vehicles, you don't see a single German car in there.

I'm all for performance, but if you can't make a car that performs and is reliable, how in the heck do you expect most people to want to own one.

Only 4-cyl Camry's since 1986, all but the 1986 we bought used with mileage between 30,000 and 85,000. Drove all to 250,000+ miles and then sold for good money. Never before had such a trouble free car. All got 30+ mpg on the highway, and our 2007 gets 33-34 mpg, the 2005 about 1 mpg less. A car is transportation first and foremost + enough room to meet the need, quality of ride is 2nd, and performance, pzazz, and everything else is money down the drain as far as I'm concerned. BTW, the 2007 has a trailer hitch and pulls everything I need to pull, allowed me to dump the gas guzzling pickup years ago. Never regretted that move.

The only trouble with Camry's is that they don't wear out. Our 2005, now 9 years old, only has 185,000 miles on it, which means 5-10 more years before we get to replace it.

TMonter said:

The "japanese" (since many of them are made in the country they are sold in) cars do better on a regular maintenance schedule as well. It's more than just requiring attention it's the rapid pace at which past a certain age the German cars seem to require excessive maintenance and not to mention the cost of the parts. Something as simple as a coil pack will often cost 2-3x as much on a german car than a japanese car.

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The NY Times put it best when comparing Lexus to BMW. "If you don't like driving, get a Lexus, however, if you get enjoyment out of driving buy a BMW"

Lexus is just an upscale toyota.


German cars use more expensive parts in order to perform significantly better than their Jap rivals. Using more expensive parts means more expensive repairs.

I'm just saying! Look, I've driven EVERYTHING, from Bentley to Lamborghini, the cars I despised the most were the toyota/lexus, they have no soul as thomas put it. If I'm going to spend 20-50K on a car or anything for that matter, it better excite me.

TMonter said:

http://corp.carmd.com/2013-manufacturer-vehicle-ranking.htm?subId=232

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Consider this: Car and Driver, the most respected automotive magazine has name BMW 3 series as one of the ten bet 22 years in a row. 22 years, no other manufacturer can come close to this, that is why the bmw 3 series is considered the benchmark of the class.

You will not find a toyota on even 1/3 of that list in the past 22 years.

TMonter said:

http://corp.carmd.com/2013-manufacturer-vehicle-ranking.htm?subId=232
.

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This list is garbage, I can not trust a website that ranks Hyundai as the top car. They are throw away cars. What they fail to realize is that even though they are reliable, after just a few years you get creeks rattles and all sorts of NVH stuff that is unpleasant. You will not find that kind of deterioration on a BMW, Benz (some of them), or Audi.

Nor will you find me on a BMW list for the last 66 years,

Wow, a lot of brand loyalty showing up here. I'll admit almost everything Toyota/Lexus makes is boring. And BMW is truly a "driver's car". And I love to rail cars on the streets, but I also despise doing maintenance, so any German car is out for me, as are American vehicles. You see a lot of BMW/Mercedes owners on a 5 year rotation with their cars for a reason, they start to nickle and dime you after a while, and German parts are not cheap. You don't buy a BMW because you want a reliable commuter, you buy one for the driving experience or the status. VW is the exception with German cars, with it being a crap shoot if your model will have long term reliability. I talk to as many people who love theirs, as people who have dumped serious money into keeping them running.

Lexus/Toyota has made 2 fun cars, the Supra and the IS300. When I decided I wanted a fun sports sedan, I ruled out the 3 series pretty quick, even though that used to be my dream car. I ended up with an 03 IS300, and that engine has a record of lasting a long time. It is a shame they don't make anything more modern that is fun, because the built quality is excellent. I really wanted a G35 sedan, but even their reliability scared me for something I wanted to go to 200,000 miles trouble free.

Nissan is doing a great job of breathing fun life into their cars so is Subaru, but they aren't at the level of reliability of Toyota/Honda. Honda is normally a decent compromise if you want something fun, but their lower tier models are basically tin boxes with an engine. Most people don't care so much about "fun" though and view a car as an appliance. And if you want an appliance that you drive to last a long time, go with a Japanese one, hands down. I'm keeping my eye on Hyundai/Kia as well, I think they've surpassed the American cars and will be on the tails of the Japanese pretty soon.

ironspider said:

The NY Times put it best when comparing Lexus to BMW. "If you don't like driving, get a Lexus, however, if you get enjoyment out of driving buy a BMW"

Lexus is just an upscale toyota.


German cars use more expensive parts in order to perform significantly better than their Jap rivals. Using more expensive parts means more expensive repairs.

I'm just saying! Look, I've driven EVERYTHING, from Bentley to Lamborghini, the cars I despised the most were the toyota/lexus, they have no soul as thomas put it. If I'm going to spend 20-50K on a car or anything for that matter, it better excite me.

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I actually sell Lexus cars for a living and I sold BMW's for six years. The long and the short I have never seen anyone crying in the Lexus service department, and that was a monthly event at BMW . When they break its catastrophic, repairs are the 2 to 3k range when you are out of warranty

To the original posters criteria in the 20 to 30 k range the 2 best 4 door sedan choices for New England are the legacy (best awd for under 30 k) and the vw Jetta tdi (very reliable and amazing fuel economy) the Camry and accord give you a big size and reliability fo the $ but they really have no soul .

For the record the Subaru legacy , accord, Camry are all made in the United States .

I own the legacy I need the awd to get to work in the snow and I am cheap

ironspider said:

This list is garbage, I can not trust a website that ranks Hyundai as the top car. They are throw away cars. What they fail to realize is that even though they are reliable, after just a few years you get creeks rattles and all sorts of NVH stuff that is unpleasant. You will not find that kind of deterioration on a BMW, Benz (some of them), or Audi.

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I beg to differ, BMW's and Audi's both have horrible long term quality issues and at the 10 year mark have as many creaks and rattles.

There is a reason the German cars lose value more quickly than their other counterparts.

A high dollar performance car that lasts a few years and is fun to drive, and then promptly becomes a maintenance headache while cool does not inspire confidence in their engineering capabilities in my book.

ironspider said:

Consider this: Car and Driver, the most respected automotive magazine has name BMW 3 series as one of the ten bet 22 years in a row. 22 years, no other manufacturer can come close to this, that is why the bmw 3 series is considered the benchmark of the class.

You will not find a toyota on even 1/3 of that list in the past 22 years.

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Car and driver is a performance car magazine more concerned with on the road performance than with long term quality or reliability. Like it or not, a car purchased solely for performance is out of the reach of most people.

Are you honestly going to claim that a BMW M3 (or any other 3 series) is in the reach of most people?

I mean if you're not going to be practical, sign me up for a new M3 or preferably an Ariel Atom V8 any day.

flyingcow said:

the subaru is not something we are interested in. We did test drive the cars that had been listed here. We keep coming back to the Camry. We'll see how this works out. Just a big change going from minivans back to a sedan.

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I've owned both Subarua and Toyota. I'd take a Toyota with snow tires on it any day over any model Subaru. Subaru has a loyal following and they're not bad cars but I've found both Toyota and Honda to be more reliable and cheaper to maintain.

If I have to be honest . . . I think my favorite car was a Toyota Celica I owned . . . I think it was either a 1990 or 1993 ST . . . bottom of the barrel . . . and I later learned it was a "chick car" . . . but I still liked it as it was light enough to be quite zippy, handled well and was fantastic on gas. I would still be driving it today if it hadn't rusted out.

flyingcow said:

Or any thoughts of a mid size that rides better than a buckboard? We have had minivans for 15 yrs? or so.

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We have one of those and just cant part with it ,its so damn handy.Brought home out 70" HDTV recently. Rides nice too.Your gonna miss yours.

i wear out toyotas. I presently have 296,000 miles on a 98 4runner. That thing is remarkable in it's ability to go places offroad, in it's stock form. It does not even burn oil yet.

I believe honda has a slightly overblown reputation in many cases. There are 3 honda plants in my location, and many friends and family work there and own hondas. The cars seem to be better then the crv's. My family has killed 3 of those.

Honda sure did teach us some manufacturing lessons though.

I could not care less about performance cars. I am one of those that lost interest in vehicles after the 70's, other then trucks, but they are tools.

razerface said:

I could not care less about performance cars. I am one of those that lost interest in vehicles after the 70's, other then trucks, but they are tools.

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Yeah I'm not a car guy either. Everyone's gotta have a hobby or two but I never understood the idea of dropping thousands of dollars into a depreciating asset, which is what 99% of vehichles are for 99% of people. I guess they're useful in bolstering the ego or sense of importance for some.

I view all vehichles as tools. I don't care who sees me driving what make and model. I need to get from A to B safely, reliably and economically.

flyingcow said:

Good lord...this took off as a thread. I thought this might have to head for the can. But I do appreciate the input. Seriously this is good input. BUT ........my wife is still leaning to the Camry. She's happy..............

BTW------the truck i own is, a '06 crew cab, 8ft bed,3500 series, D-Mavx. Which has a 4 inch lift.

But I might trade to a http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sedan.html


0 to 60 in 5 seconds. Make me a nice company car................

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You can get all the input you want from us . . . and there are many of us have some favoritism towards certain makes . . . but at the end of the day what really matters is that your wife picks what she wants . . . not what we think she wants.

TMonter said:

Car and driver is a performance car magazine more concerned with on the road performance than with long term quality or reliability. Like it or not, a car purchased solely for performance is out of the reach of most people.

Are you honestly going to claim that a BMW M3 (or any other 3 series) is in the reach of most people?

I mean if you're not going to be practical, sign me up for a new M3 or preferably an Ariel Atom V8 any day.

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Yes I'm going to claim that some 3 series are in the reach of most people. Many people buy a honda accord for over 30k, a toyota camry for over 30k (blows my mind), nissan maxima, vw passat etc. Yet, you can get a bmw 320i for low 30's, just give up some of the stupid crazy options and you have the best handling car for 30 grand.

M3, no that is out of reach for most people. But, If you are leasing you can surely get a 328 xdrive, loaded for a reasonable monthly payment, and NEVER have to worry about maintenance.

flyingcow said:

Good lord...this took off as a thread. I thought this might have to head for the can. But I do appreciate the input. Seriously this is good input. BUT ........my wife is still leaning to the Camry. She's happy..............

BTW------the truck i own is, a '06 crew cab, 8ft bed,3500 series, D-Mavx. Which has a 4 inch lift.

But I might trade to a http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sedan.html


0 to 60 in 5 seconds. Make me a nice company car................

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Yeah, I have very strong feelings about certain cars so, this thread getting off topic may be my fault. Like someone else said, as long as your wife is happy, that is what matters. So if she like the Camry, well, Camry it is.

Now that Chevy SS, oooh, I want one too.

I had one toyota tacoma 1999,and it turned out to be the most unreliable,useless hunk of rust i ever owned. Not going back there.
Id like to try something different. Perhaps a VOLT . IF they ever produce a reasonably priced electric truck ill be first in line. All Pickups get krap MPG . For now my only option is to convert an existing one.