Decisions, Decisions, which brand boiler to choose?

Tank71 · Feb 1, 2014

Hi everyone, still very new to website and there so much information to digest. This site is a very useful resource and I thank you all for sharing your designs and experiences.

Anyway I have decided to install a gasification boiler this summer. Now I need to decide which brand to go with. I will be building an out building to house boiler, water storage and wood. The building with the boiler will be about 100' feet from house. BTW I have unlimited amount of wood available to me and understand what it takes to burn wood fuel as a primary heat source.

I know if I ask which boiler is best everyone will tell me theirs is. So I am going to take a different angle.

What do you like about your boiler?

What do you dislike about your boiler? (Try and be honest)

What would you change about your unit now that you have it installed and have been using it?

What options do wish your boiler had that a different brand has?

I want to make this investment one time, and understand doing it correctly is pricey. So real world experience is far valuable to me than any info a salesman can give.

Thank you for your time.

Tank 71

heaterman · Feb 1, 2014

What type of heating system will it be connected to in your house?
If it can use variable water temps from 140 up to 190 and provide adequate heat for your house there is nothing that will provide the simplicity and efficiency you would get with a Garn.
If you need constant 180* water for your system then your best bet might be a traditional gasifier with lots of storage.

I have to say after working with about anything you can name, and any type of system you can think of, a very large part of your boilers performance depends not on the boiler itself but rather the heat emitters and system it is connected to.
A system that has enough heating capacity to tolerate temperature swings of 40-50* and still provide enough heat to your structure makes life much easier for you and your boiler.

ihookem · Feb 1, 2014

My EKO 25 is very simple. I put wood in it 3 times a dayand keep the temps at 160 or so. One pump takes care of the 1" lines 120' from the house,, much like yours would be. It also pumps 1000' of 1/2" pex under floor staple up . I clean the back tubes 1 time per day. It really is that easy. I most likely have the simplest set up on this sight. I do also have a heat exchanger in the furnace but only use it for a fast warm up sinse hydronic is a very slow heat up, but a slow cool down too. I also have it hooked up to the hot water. If I had to do it again I don't think I would have bothered putting in a heat exchanger cause I don't use it much at all . Back to the main question though, the EKO is a sturdy and very simple boiler, I did have to get a new controller though.

Tank71 · Feb 1, 2014

Sorry , I guess that would help. All hydronic infloor heat throughout the whole home. Basement and First floor.

heaterman · Feb 1, 2014

Tank71 said:
Sorry , I guess that would help. All hydronic infloor heat throughout the whole home. Basement and First floor.

Tubing suspended below the floor or in a slab on top of the subfloor? What water temperature do you need or typically run to the tubing itself? The water temp in the boiler itself doesn't matter.

Tank71 · Feb 1, 2014

heaterman said:
Tubing suspended below the floor or in a slab on top of the subfloor? What water temperature do you need or typically run to the tubing itself? The water temp in the boiler itself doesn't matter.

Gypcrete on top of first floor. Also going to heat all of the DHW with unit. Right now the Propane boiler is running my floors at 110-120 degrees.

skfire · Feb 1, 2014

Tank71 said:
Gypcrete on top of first floor. Also going to heat all of the DHW with unit. Right now the Propane boiler is running my floors at 110-120 degrees.

I have the exact same system.
all radiant gypkrete, and some radiant floor panels.
I heat from 185 down to 100.
froling boiler 40/50, set to 50.
boiler in house, no hx or undergrounds.
no smell, no smoke, no mess.
no complaints, no hassles.
what I don't like?...hard to say for the last 3 years of use, but track record is good.
All relevant to specifics of each user and conditions.
Scott

Coal Reaper · Feb 1, 2014

Def want storage if you can use supply temps that low and this is where i think a garn would work best. Note that this boiler can only be run unpressurized where as most other indoor units are typically pressurized.
I wouldnt be happy if i had to mess with my boiler as much as ihookem describes, no offense.
Theres a link in my sig where i discuss MY decision making process.

mike van · Feb 1, 2014

Hi Tank - A year ago. I was at where you are now - I didn't research every brand or model out there, you'd never be able to pick one. I picked the Garn Jr, the 1000 gal model. Had they not come out with this one, I'm not sure I'd have done the 1500 one. You asked about dislikes, and the only one I can mention is the price. I know all these gassers are pricey, initial cost, hook up, plus the building. I wanted the fire out of the house, I'd been 15+ years with a Harman, trying to clean a chimney that wouldn't be cleaned, up on the roof every few weeks. At least one chimney fire every year. 9 cords of good wood last season. I liked the rugged simplicity of the Garn, the firebox that could hold a small cow, and the fact it could plumb into our old boiler [through a HX] like the Harman had. What I like the most is the wood it takes - The pic shows what I've been feeding it. some really good size pieces, some I've thrown in have been 12" dia. unsplit, they

burn down to a fine ash. I haven't had any wood bridge in the box, no unburnt ones. This was all put up a year ago, half cord pallets, just covered on top. I've run slabs from my mill in the Garn, pine, hemlock, etc., all dried like this. At 6 AM today with 150 degree water I loaded up 50 - 60 pounds of slabs, mostly hemlock, it was gone in 1 hour, the water back up to 188, and the blower off by itself. Now, at 2:30, the water is at 160, demand is low though today as it's up to 40. There were a few showers and 2 loads of wash though. Gotta like that free hot water. A word about the smoke [or lack of] My Harman made smoke like I was burning tires in it, bad. The wood I use now is put up the same way, but now I get light blue smoke for 5 minutes, smoke so thin you can see through it. It'll turn to steam on real cold days, like a huge dryer vent for a half hour or so - After that, there's no sign it's running [other than a warm house. Some friends thought we were burning oil. That'll be the day. A lot of visitors have checked out my bldg & Garn, the most used words are "holy sh--" when they first see it. I'm happy, wife's happy - Propane & oil went to how much?

BoilerMan · Feb 1, 2014

Generally any boiler will work well for the info you have supplied. Heaterman has asked all the right questions. You have wet radiant (tubing embedded in something) and you can make the most of very low temperatures. Since your boiler will be in an outbuilding you can rule out natural draft units since your chimney won't be 25+ feet tall.

My boiler has worked well and is very well built for the $$$$. I would not get any boiler that did not have an ID (induced draft) fan. A positive draft boiler is just asking for smoke spillage in a short chimney building.

TS

mr.fixit · Feb 1, 2014

Tank71 said:
Hi everyone, still very new to website and there so much information to digest. This site is a very useful resource and I thank you all for sharing your designs and experiences.

Anyway I have decided to install a gasification boiler this summer. Now I need to decide which brand to go with. I will be building an out building to house boiler, water storage and wood. The building with the boiler will be about 100' feet from house. BTW I have unlimited amount of wood available to me and understand what it takes to burn wood fuel as a primary heat source.

I know if I ask which boiler is best everyone will tell me theirs is. So I am going to take a different angle.

What do you like about your boiler?

What do you dislike about your boiler? (Try and be honest)

What would you change about your unit now that you have it installed and have been using it?

What options do wish your boiler had that a different brand has?

I want to make this investment one time, and understand doing it correctly is pricey. So real world experience is far valuable to me than any info a salesman can give.

Thank you for your time.

Tank 71

EKO 40 with 500gal storage
Likes; Reasonably priced, easy to operate, built like a tank, heats alot of sq. ft. on a reasonable amount of wood with little smoke. Controller could easily be bypassed if it failed with other off the shelf components. Single nozzle opening.

Dislikes; Turbulator cleaning handle ineffective. I removed the "claptrap" and clean manually with a wire brush.
Nozzle hard to replace,but it's life can be greatly extended with a firebrick overlay. I have yet to replace the whole nozzle after 4 seasons of 9-11 cords a season.
Some smoke does roll out the door when there is inadequate draft,but mine is in an outbuilding so not a big deal. Loading when down to coals helps prevent it .

About the only thing I would change is I would put in more storage and do a neater job on the plumbing.
I think that the "coil spring" type turbulators that some boilers use now would be more effective.
I would also take more time installing it and try and do everything correctly and neater.

Tank71 · Feb 1, 2014

mike van said:
Hi Tank - A year ago. I was at where you are now - I didn't research every brand or model out there, you'd never be able to pick one. I picked the Garn Jr, the 1000 gal model. Had they not come out with this one, I'm not sure I'd have done the 1500 one. You asked about dislikes, and the only one I can mention is the price. I know all these gassers are pricey, initial cost, hook up, plus the building. I wanted the fire out of the house, I'd been 15+ years with a Harman, trying to clean a chimney that wouldn't be cleaned, up on the roof every few weeks. At least one chimney fire every year. 9 cords of good wood last season. I liked the rugged simplicity of the Garn, the firebox that could hold a small cow, and the fact it could plumb into our old boiler [through a HX] like the Harman had. What I like the most is the wood it takes - The pic shows what I've been feeding it. some really good size pieces, some I've thrown in have been 12" dia. unsplit, they View attachment 126085 burn down to a fine ash. I haven't had any wood bridge in the box, no unburnt ones. This was all put up a year ago, half cord pallets, just covered on top. I've run slabs from my mill in the Garn, pine, hemlock, etc., all dried like this. At 6 AM today with 150 degree water I loaded up 50 - 60 pounds of slabs, mostly hemlock, it was gone in 1 hour, the water back up to 188, and the blower off by itself. Now, at 2:30, the water is at 160, demand is low though today as it's up to 40. There were a few showers and 2 loads of wash though. Gotta like that free hot water. A word about the smoke [or lack of] My Harman made smoke like I was burning tires in it, bad. The wood I use now is put up the same way, but now I get light blue smoke for 5 minutes, smoke so thin you can see through it. It'll turn to steam on real cold days, like a huge dryer vent for a half hour or so - After that, there's no sign it's running [other than a warm house. Some friends thought we were burning oil. That'll be the day. A lot of visitors have checked out my bldg & Garn, the most used words are "holy sh--" when they first see it. I'm happy, wife's happy - Propane & oil went to how much?

I have done some research on Garn. One of my questions is how long does it take to make the fire and put enough wood in the unit to bring the water temp to where you need it? I watched a couple videos and they had to reload the unit 2 or 3 times before the unit had enough fuel to get up to temp. Is it possible to make the fire, fill it up with wood and leave? I understand that the species of wood will make a big difference. What I don't want is to babysit a fire for an hr to make sure there is enough wood to get it to temp.

Vizsla · Feb 1, 2014

How much is a garn compared to a Tarm or eko and 1000gal storage. I personally just can't grasp the room the garn takes up. Yes 1000 storage takes up space too but you have options to where it's located.

ihookem · Feb 1, 2014

Coal reaper, no I'm not happy with my EKO 25 in a way. It is easy to use but if I would have went with an EKO 40 I would only hve to load it twice a day. It was only 500 bucks more at the time too. I don't even mind going outside at 9pm when it's -10 unless the wind is strong. But yes, I wish I'd have gone with the 40.

Fred61 · Feb 1, 2014

ihookem said:
Coal reaper, no I'm not happy with my EKO 25 in a way. It is easy to use but if I would have went with an EKO 40 I would only hve to load it twice a day. It was only 500 bucks more at the time too. I don't even mind going outside at 9pm when it's -10 unless the wind is strong. But yes, I wish I'd have gone with the 40.

Looks like the 25 may be a little small for your load however it is possible that you could run into a new set of problems with excessive idling with the 40.

heaterman · Feb 1, 2014

Loading a Garn.....Assuming wood of average quality, a full load will elevate water temperature 30-40*. Top it off after an hour and you'll get 45-55* rise.
The beauty of your heating system is that you can probably heat your house with 100-110* water which allows a lot of time between firings.
Depending on your heat loss and the ambient conditions, you're probably looking at a single 3-4 hour burn once a day.

You have a perfect setup for a Garn. Outbuilding already there, low temp heating system in place.....
I would be knocking on your door if you were in my area.

Tank71 · Feb 1, 2014

heaterman said:
Loading a Garn.....Assuming wood of average quality, a full load will elevate water temperature 30-40*. Top it off after an hour and you'll get 45-55* rise.
The beauty of your heating system is that you can probably heat your house with 100-110* water which allows a lot of time between firings.
Depending on your heat loss and the ambient conditions, you're probably looking at a single 3-4 hour burn once a day.

You have a perfect setup for a Garn. Outbuilding already there, low temp heating system in place.....
I would be knocking on your door if you were in my area.

What type of system are you running? Don't think you have mentioned that yet.

Tank71 · Feb 1, 2014

mike van said:
Hi Tank - A year ago. I was at where you are now - I didn't research every brand or model out there, you'd never be able to pick one. I picked the Garn Jr, the 1000 gal model. Had they not come out with this one, I'm not sure I'd have done the 1500 one. You asked about dislikes, and the only one I can mention is the price. I know all these gassers are pricey, initial cost, hook up, plus the building. I wanted the fire out of the house, I'd been 15+ years with a Harman, trying to clean a chimney that wouldn't be cleaned, up on the roof every few weeks. At least one chimney fire every year. 9 cords of good wood last season. I liked the rugged simplicity of the Garn, the firebox that could hold a small cow, and the fact it could plumb into our old boiler [through a HX] like the Harman had. What I like the most is the wood it takes - The pic shows what I've been feeding it. some really good size pieces, some I've thrown in have been 12" dia. unsplit, they View attachment 126085 burn down to a fine ash. I haven't had any wood bridge in the box, no unburnt ones. This was all put up a year ago, half cord pallets, just covered on top. I've run slabs from my mill in the Garn, pine, hemlock, etc., all dried like this. At 6 AM today with 150 degree water I loaded up 50 - 60 pounds of slabs, mostly hemlock, it was gone in 1 hour, the water back up to 188, and the blower off by itself. Now, at 2:30, the water is at 160, demand is low though today as it's up to 40. There were a few showers and 2 loads of wash though. Gotta like that free hot water. A word about the smoke [or lack of] My Harman made smoke like I was burning tires in it, bad. The wood I use now is put up the same way, but now I get light blue smoke for 5 minutes, smoke so thin you can see through it. It'll turn to steam on real cold days, like a huge dryer vent for a half hour or so - After that, there's no sign it's running [other than a warm house. Some friends thought we were burning oil. That'll be the day. A lot of visitors have checked out my bldg & Garn, the most used words are "holy sh--" when they first see it. I'm happy, wife's happy - Propane & oil went to how much?

If you don't mind me asking what was the cost for your Garn?

Boil&Toil · Feb 1, 2014

Tank71 said:
Garn. One of my questions is how long does it take to make the fire and put enough wood in the unit to bring the water temp to where you need it?...What I don't want is to babysit a fire for an hr to make sure there is enough wood to get it to temp.

No babysitting required, IME - work has a Garn - I think the 2000 gallon version. If there are coals, loading takes 3 minutes, tops - twist the fan timer to 3 hours, rake coals forward, toss in wood, close door, walk away. If paranoid, add 2 minutes to look at the exhaust temp gauge and give the fire enough time to move it before walking away. Lighting adds a couple of minutes more, at most (there's more reason to hang around and look at the gauge, as not having hot coals mean you have to be sure the kindling actually lit, but the fan draft helps with that.) No babysitting at all once it's actually lit.

How much it goes up with how much wood depends on your heat load and wood as well as the size of tank. Since that is only lit during heating season and is attached to a large building that nearly always has something calling for heat, the temperature rise per load of wood is more like 20-30 degrees on a typical load. From what I have been told, the instructions are NOT to overload the firebox - work's procedure (which I know is overly cautious on temperature) is not more than 1/2 full of wood, and not to fire if over 150F. If you come back in 90-120 minutes and add more wood, you get more rise, and you don't have to build a fire (often you'll have some coals even 3-4 hours out.) I have no idea what it cost, circa 2006 when installed.

To get back to your question, I can't say that it's made me want one terribly much; I think I prefer my boiler pressurized even if the mass storage is not, and I prefer my mass storage (at the open kind) not to be steel, unless it's stainless. But I'm also the kind of crazy that's considering turning a crappy old Tarm creosote generator into a home-built gasifier - just add castable refractory and threaten it with Dick Hill's plans...

mike van · Feb 2, 2014

The Garn was 11 thou Tank, plus some extras, freight, HX, plumbing. As for the temp rise, I see 50 to 60F rise on a load of good hardwood. I know the book said 30 to 40, but much of the book was written for the 1500/2000 models. There is no sitting by the fire to monitor it, after a few weeks of running it, it pretty straight forward. Once you have a tank of hot water, you're not going to let it get cold anyway. The unit is 7 ft long, 5 wide and 5 ft tall. Pretty compact I feel for what it does. A 1000 gal propane tank is 16 ft long just to compare. Free Garn water testing every year also. As for starting the fire, 5 minutes or so. A full load is gone in 2 to 2.5 hours, and reloads are 12 hrs apart, so I never have coals. You need dry wood, not kiln dried [I don't own a moisture meter] a small amount of kindling, and a Bernzomatic torch. No matches, no paper. I did a Garn Jr thread a few weeks ago, you can find some more info there. I know there are options with separate storage, I looked into it briefly. The modular tank looked good for getting into a tight basement 'till I saw the cost of it.

GENECOP · Feb 2, 2014

Discount stoves.net is blowing out the last few Greenwood 100 's ........$3,000.......That's a great deal, it's a $7,000 unit....No warranty, but the never really was with Greenwood anyway.....it's a good Boiler despite some bad press....

flyingcow · Feb 2, 2014

know if I ask which boiler is best everyone will tell me theirs is. So I am going to take a different angle.

What do you like about your boiler? simple to operate, throw in kindlin, light and fill fire box and walk away.

What do you dislike about your boiler? (Try and be honest)

Cost? But it works well

What would you change about your unit now that you have it installed and have been using it? Maybe bigger unit, i did not do a load calc. The boiler keeps up, just would like a bigger firebox.

What options do wish your boiler had that a different brand has? Lambda, but it's not needed. Just like to have some more bells and whistles.

A boiler + storage will be about the same $$$'s as a Garn.

I have baseboard heat, so It's nice when I can light a match and have 165 thru the BB in 45 mins. With your in floor you don't need that.

Tank71 · Feb 2, 2014

flyingcow said:
know if I ask which boiler is best everyone will tell me theirs is. So I am going to take a different angle.

What do you like about your boiler? simple to operate, throw in kindlin, light and fill fire box and walk away.

What do you dislike about your boiler? (Try and be honest) Cost? But it works well

What would you change about your unit now that you have it installed and have been using it? Maybe bigger unit, i did not do a load calc. The boiler keeps up, just would like a bigger firebox.

What options do wish your boiler had that a different brand has? Lambda, but it's not needed. Just like to have some more bells and whistles.

A boiler + storage will be about the same $$$'s as a Garn.

I have baseboard heat, so It's nice when I can light a match and have 165 thru the BB in 45 mins. With your in floor you don't need that.

Ok does everyone agree with flyingcow that you can build a boiler with storage for about the same price as a Garn? I am not doubting you flyingcow just trying to get a feel for what everyone else thinks.

henfruit · Feb 3, 2014

Yes you can .

maple1 · Feb 3, 2014

You can very likely do boiler + storage for less than a Garn if you're handy & can find some storage vessels close by. Finding reasonably priced storage would be the big variable. There are also lots of boilers to pick from with a range of prices. You can mix & match - and I like modularity.

Decisions, Decisions, which brand boiler to choose?

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