Is there a large enough stove?

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jatoxico said:
mind if I ask where the wood is coming from. Maybe somebody who knows better could guess but sounds like 10 cords/yr or more if you go boiler which is a lot to process whereas a stove might acting as a supplemental heat source might use 3/4 cords.
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Around here lots of people burn tamarack. You can buy it for $50 a cord. I have access to around 100 acres of woods that is mostly made up of pine and balsam poplar (both not ideal) but mostly everyone around here burns pine. Also the dnr will issue wood cutting permits for $25 for a max of 10 cords per permit.


mark cline said:
Hopefully your floor is insulated underneath too. A forced air furnace would add heat to your basement , making it a very usable space in the winter . Like for wood working etc. A side note , I don't know what your fire codes are , but in New York , the styrofoam needs to be covered with dry wall at a minimum for fire code.
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The floor seems pretty cold when walking on it with just socks on the feet, but like I said it stays fairly warm down there even though the existing furnace is not supplying it with heat. I do believe that it is code to sheet rock the styrofoam around here also. That is one of my summer projects.


HotCoals said:
but it could still save you a lot of coin. If it was me a big wood furnace(forced air) in the basement then maybe a stove in the area you are in most if you wanted it. Is your basement walk out..if not can you get the wood in easy enough through a window?
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The biggest part of me wanting to heat with wood is the money I will save. I can cut my own wood on state land for $25 for 10 cords of wood. Getting the wood to the basement is not a concern. I have windows and there is a door in the basement that goes outside with 4 steps so its sort of a walkout. I am building a garage this summer on that side of the house so I will have to walk through the garage to get to my wood pile.


Joful said:
On the wood furnace, I couldn't bring myself to do it. First, I routinely hear guys claiming they 20+ cords per year in those things, to heat places much smaller than my own, due to the enormous losses associated with outside furnaces and boilers.
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Talked with a guy at work and he has an outdoor wood boiler and really likes it but he said he burns a MINIMUM of 20 cords a year. I just don't see that viable and would be buying more wood that collecting it myself and that would mean not saving much money on heating costs.



begreen said:
Heating the 2400 sq ft in a well insulated house on one floor, I think a single large stove will make a major dent in the propane bill. If you haven't already started on stacking and drying your wood supply, time to have at it.
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I have about 2 cords of stacked wood (mostly pine and some popple) that has been covered for over a year that I can use if I replenish (its my dads woodpile that I helped gather for him but its only used for outdoor campfires so i can replenish with sub-par wood). I think that would get me ahead some and I was thinking I could cut pine early this and split it and it would be dry enough by the fall. My yard is very big and open so the sun and wind is plentiful in the summer time to help with drying.
 
As mentionned by other memeber, if you already have duct work, I would go with a indoor air forced wood furnace add on. The PSG Max Caddy could be on good choice ( might be short on btu in cold cold days ??) and it got the dhw coil option.
 
I would get a big coal stove to handle that job. Thats a serious amount of wood processing to handle a house that big.
 
JA600L said:
I would get a big coal stove to handle that job. Thats a serious amount of wood processing to handle a house that big.
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Well, I guess it depends on your priorities, and your reasons for heating with wood. You lose the ambiance of fire in your living room with a wood furnace, and a coal stove doesn't hold much romance for me. Besides, a single coal stove will heat the space no better than a single wood stove, the primary obstacle being movement of heat throughout the space. 4800 sq.ft. is not very big at all for modern construction, but unless you have an ideally open layout with a centrally located stove, you're going to need multiple heat sources.

I'd plan on two stoves (many, many, many people are heating 2400 sq.ft. with one stove), and wood usage around 7 cords per year. That is completely manageable, particularly if you just purchase a single log truck (typ. 8 cords) per year, delivered, and only have to deal with the bucking/splitting/stacking part of the the job. I waste much more time on felling, limbing, and hauling it home, than I do on bucking and splitting.
 
coldMN17 said:
Talked with a guy at work and he has an outdoor wood boiler and really likes it but he said he burns a MINIMUM of 20 cords a year. I just don't see that viable and would be buying more wood that collecting it myself and that would mean not saving much money on heating costs.
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Wow 20 cords. Another reminder why i dont want one of these wood eating machines.
 
Coldmn17
Not sure when your house was built. But, anything built in the State of Minnesota in the last 10-12 years had a heat loss calculation done on it as part of the building permit process. Not sure who the inspection authority is where you are. Public or Private but they should be able to give you the heat loss calculations to determine how many BTU's you need to adequately to heat that house. From your dimension you probably have a long ranch style house. You mentioned the lower level is insulated. I would also check to make sure the rim joist are adequately insulated. Spray foam is the best. Alot or air leaking at the rim on that large of a house. After you have determined that the "envelope" of the house is tight you have a good chance to make many options work.
If it were me, I would drive over to Tower to see the Kuuma furnace. From the looks of things they got a nice product. I would personally add it on the existing or put it in separately and heat the lower level and let nature (warm air rises) take over. I grew up in a 2000 sq. ft. ranch and we heated the lower level all winter with a old fashioned wood burner. The heated basement made the upstairs floors nice and warm. Warm floors help alot to make you feel good. Then I would let the existing furnace add supplement to the whole equation.
Let's face it. This year is unusual. This constant cold is not normal. But, it is nice to be able to handle it with a wood furnace. After a year or so, you can then look at the possibility of adding a wood stove upstairs for additional comfort and ambiance.
Good luck.
 
wkpoor said:
100K BTUs doesn't sound like enough furnace for a Minnesota house that big or even half that big. .
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The furnace is probably sized about right considering the gas usage so far
.
I have a similar sized 2004 house with 4200 sq ft on 2 floors, an open floor plan and a finished basement. It heats fine with a 100,000 BTU forced air LP gas furnace in Northern Wis. The furnace is 94% efficient and runs about 30% duty cycle (on-time) on cold nights of 0F to -15F. I saw 40% duty cycle on some -26F nights last year. This house has average 2x6 construction with fiberglass batts and a vapor barrier. It had a lot of air leaks that were fixed in 2011-2012 so current heating bills are about half the original numbers.

The info below is from before I fixed it.

15F outside temp needs about 20% furnace run time to maintain 66F inside.
94,000 btu's (94% x 100,000) can raise the temperature about 4F per hour in this size of home.
The furnace runs about 20 minutes and then shuts off for a few hours (it used to run once per hour).
If I turn it down 4F it will gradually cool and come on about 5 -8 hours later while it's 10-15F outside.

Looking at what ColdMN has now he could gather some info and figure out fairly close how much heat he needs regarding a wood stove.

  • Record the existing furnace run time vs outside temperatures. This can be used to calculate approximate BTU's needed per heating degree day.
  • Turn down the furnace and watch the rate of temp drop in the house per hour. Record the outside temp at the time and the date.
  • Turn the furnace on and observe the rate of rise per hour. ie (15 minutes to go up 1F).

    Looking at how fast it heats and cools with the original furnace tells us if the furnace is sized right and how efficient the house is.

    Calculation example: If it runs 30% of the time at a certain temperature and is around 94% efficient then in this case it takes a steady input of 28,000 btu to keep up. (.30 x .94 x 100,000 capacity =28,000).
It's fairly easy to put a watt meter on the furnace blower or control lines and get exact run-time data but even just listening to the furnace run-time per hour would be useful.

I added some furnace run-time charts so you can see some actual furnace data for a similar sized house in a similar climate,
 

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One option (if the structure can support a retrofit) is a masonry heater with a hydronic heating tie in. Masonry heaters (westernized) can produce substantial and efficient heat, and with tie in to the boiler system, that heat can be used throughout the house. And then you can retain that heat storage inside the house rather than outside, where much more heat is lost on the unit itself. There are a couple guys in Fairbanks, AK that have gotten in well figured out, and have been installing these combo units. Also very clean burning.
 
Thanks for all of the helpful replies everyone.

Here is where I am at so far with my decision making. I am slowing leaning towards a large wood stove in the basement. We are planning on finishing off the basement and having our family room down there. I figured with leaving the basement open and being it is insulated already the wood stoves heat with help warm the floors upstairs and some heat will get up there. Even if I can save 30-50% on my propane bill I would be happy. I still haven't ruled out a wood furnace but I want the best of both worlds of having a wood stove that I can sit in front of and view the fire and be able to supply a good amount of heat.

I did some looking around locally at two different hardware stores that I knew carried some wood stoves. First place I looked carries Quadra Fire and they recommended the 5700 but did say it probably will not heat my entire house but would warm up my basement nicely and probably shave off some cost of propane. The second place I looked had a Harman TL300 which was highly spoke of there and one of the workers had one and said he really enjoys it. Anyone have any thoughts of either one of these?
 
Just to be clear, an outside wood fired boiler is not the same thing as a wood burning furnace. A quality wood burning furnace will be as efficient as a wood stove.
 
jotul8e2 said:
Just to be clear, an outside wood fired boiler is not the same thing as a wood burning furnace. A quality wood burning furnace will be as efficient as a wood stove.
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I completely understand and am very familiar with a outdoor wood boiler. This was a possible option, but cost (unit and install) and the amount of wood I would burn through with and outdoor wood boiler has turned me away from this option.

I would like either a wood burning furnace either added on to my existing duct work or have its own ducting system, or a wood stove. But, I have been leaning more towards a wood stove and the goal would be to heat my basement while taking the edge off upstairs and saving on propane costs but not relying on it to heat my entire house.
 
Based on your goals I would also take a look at the Kuma Sequoia, Enerzone 3.4 and the Blaze King King. There's also Regency's new big boy, the 4.4 cu ft. Regency 5100.
 
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"I am building a garage this summer on that side of the house so I will have to walk through the garage to get to my wood pile."


"I have about 2 cords of stacked wood (mostly pine and some popple) that has been covered for over a year that I can use if I replenish (its my dads woodpile that I helped gather for him but its only used for outdoor campfires so i can replenish with sub-par wood)."

Two thoughts:

- if you're going to build an adjoining garage, include a provision for wood storage. If not inside part of the garage area, then at least covered outside. You may not store all your wood there, but having the seasoned wood handy sure beats hauling it through the snow;

- you mention stacked wood. If it hasn't been split, it is very unlikely to be ready for burning.
 
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DanCorcoran said:
you mention stacked wood. If it hasn't been split, it is very unlikely to be ready for burning.
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It is split. Its been split for around 2 years and covered with tin. There is also around 2 more cords of wood next to it that has been there for around 2-3 years un split (covered) but they burn those big logs in their campfires during the summer.
 
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I work with a guy who heats his small rancher largely from a stove located in his insulated and finished basement. He knows he's losing a good amount of heat into one exposed block wall (adjacent to his garage slab), but it works for him with three walls and the floor insulated. Too many others here have complained that the majority of the heat they generate from their basement stoves goes into the basement floor and walls, and never makes it upstairs, so I'd be reluctant to go that route myself.

Another factor is whether your family is willing to sit in a basement on a nice snowy day. My parents bought a house when I was young, where the only two fireplaces were in the formal living room (not kid-friendly) and the basement rec. room. My dad did not mind at all sitting in the basement by the fire to watch a movie on a snow day, but my mom hated it. So much so that dad was soon at work building an addition to the house, so that we could move our family room above ground. He built a large fireplace in that new family room addition, so they were both happy. Food for thought...
 
Joful said:
My dad did not mind at all sitting in the basement by the fire to watch a movie on a snow day, but my mom hated it.
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My wife is on the same page that I am and wouldn't mind sitting down in the basement on a snow day. She is probably more excited to finish off the basement more than I am and turn it into a large living room. She already has a bunch of ideas for how she would like it laid out. She also likes the idea of having a wood stove to sit in front of and make it nice and cozy during the winter.
 
Take a look at the big Drolet stove - the HT 2000. I like the looks of that stove for the price. It and the Englander 30 can be had for about half the price of some of the comparably sized dealer offerings. They have different aesthetics, however.
 
jotul8e2 said:
Just to be clear, an outside wood fired boiler is not the same thing as a wood burning furnace. A quality wood burning furnace will be as efficient as a wood stove.
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Its not likely those folks sit around their outdoor boiler in the snow enjoying the view of the house size pile of wood they will go thru. No aesthetics there.
 
Seasoned Oak said:
Its not likely those folks sit around their outdoor boiler in the snow enjoying the view of the house size pile of wood they will go thru. No aesthetics there.
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Everything is a compromise with trade offs. I know lots of people with boilers both indoor and out. Many do complain about consumption however non complain about their house being too cold which is quite common with the aesthetically beautiful wood stove.
 
wkpoor said:
Everything is a compromise with trade offs. I know lots of people with boilers both indoor and out. Many do complain about consumption however non complain about their house being too cold which is quite common with the aesthetically beautiful wood stove.
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I dont think you could get cold with those elms going. How do you like em ,very interesting stove.
 
Seasoned Oak said:
I dont think you could get cold with those elms going. How do you like em ,very interesting stove.
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I liked the first one enough to buy another. Both do the job very well.
 
A little late here.... But there is a few indoor wod furnace tht have a glass door on them . Not as good looking as some fancy wood stove . But you coul heat the entire house and have the furnace to sit in a corner of the basement living room and still have the cozyness of watching at the fire
 
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I figured I would revise this old thread of mine and let everyone know where I am at. I am set on putting a wood stove in the basement where the living area will be located once it is all finished off. I will be keeping the basement mostly open but will be blocking off some of it keeping it the heat from traveling into those and trying to keep it rising upstairs. My house seems to be very well insulated. I have burned around 700 gallons of propane and that is my only heat source. Others in the area have been using alot more than me and have smaller houses.

My plan right now is to put a large stove in the basement and try the best to push the cool air down into basement letting the heat rise and one day possibly doing another smaller stove upstairs. I do have vents cut in the floor as I already have stated that are "suppose" to be tied into the cool air return system but it has not been done because of the cost the HVAC guy wanted to charge to finish it off.

Next I will have to decide on what stove is best. I have checked with dealers locally and one has Harman and the other has Quadra-Fire. Another place around three hours away sells Regency. I do live in the middle of nowhere northern Minnesota so there isnt a whole lot of options unless purchasing online or driving.
 
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