Newbie here seeking help picking new heat source

m67tang · Feb 12, 2014

I'm looking to upgrade my wood stove (cheapo us stove) with a real wood heating machine.
I'm debating a top end soapstone, maybe Woodstock Progress, or similar. Versus a high end wood furnace, looking at Kuuma Vaporfire.
My house is a ranch 1350sq. Ft. With full basement, that I also want heated. My full time furnace is heat pump.
I'd rather have heat without needing electric. Not sure if I can use a woodstove to heat as a primary source?
I'm not sure this is the right place to ask such a question? Really just need advice about heating my whole house with a woodstove and keeping it somewhat even throughout.
My Dad has a new Buck insert I don't like, needs fed constantly, but lots of heat.

Not looking to start a "who's got the best stove" thread. Just discuss stove vs furnace.

I'll sum it up saying, I love wood heat, and I want more.
Thanks for any available help

begreen · Feb 12, 2014

Sounds like the Buck may not be run correctly if needing constant feeding. Modern stoves don't run like the old ones.

Does 1350 sq ft include the basement area? Are the basement walls insulated? How will the heat get upstairs?

stoveguy2esw · Feb 12, 2014

ok bro,

1350 SQFT this is not counting the basement? or is it ( I doubt it as that's pretty dang small if this include basement)

now , is the basement finished? or do you look at block or concrete walls? (this matters)

just getting a feel for the space. now, remember an "add on wood furnace" in most cases relies on the indigenous whole house furnace with its much more powerful air mover to distribute the heat to the house

m67tang · Feb 12, 2014

Total house is about 2700 sq ft. If I choose a wood stove it will be in the basement that's where the chimney is.
I think my Dads Buck has draft trouble. I told him to call Buck and start asking questions. I don't want to derail my own thread with that issue.
It's just about me choosing a new wood heat maker for my house.

m67tang · Feb 12, 2014

House is not insulated in the basement. But very good insulated on main floor.

begreen · Feb 12, 2014

2700 sq ft is a large area to heat with a stove. About a third of the heat the stove produces will be lost to through the walls of an uninsulated basement. That makes a stronger case for a wood furnace if the walls aren't going to be insulated any time soon.

m67tang · Feb 12, 2014

begreen said:
2700 sq ft is a large area to heat with a stove. About a third of the heat the stove produces will be lost to through the walls of an uninsulated basement. That makes a stronger case for a wood furnace if the walls aren't going to be insulated any time soon.

OMG
I did not now this! I'm learning already.
I plan to finish the basement, but did not consider heat loss out the concrete walls.

1ruralmailman · Feb 12, 2014

on top of that,if you are truly well insulated,i would assume that means basement celling as well,which will not help with heat transfering to the upper floor .there are many threads on hear trying to figure the best way to get heat from the basement stove to the main living floor. i think your case is heading towards an add on furnace.

begreen · Feb 12, 2014

Correct. Insulating just means the walls. Insulating the basement ceiling would be counterproductive.

m67tang · Feb 13, 2014

The one thing I don't have is basement ceiling insulation. This is why my little wood stove will currently heat my house so long as temps are above 20f degrees. I was only thinking a larger more powerful stove might heat the whole house much better to a lower outside temp. I know heating from center basement location is still asking a lot.

m67tang · Feb 13, 2014

Could someone please explain radiant vs convection for me?

rideau · Feb 13, 2014

If a "little" stove will comfortably heat your home down to 20F outside, then I would think a large stove would do a nice job in just about any temperature.

I have a Progress Hybrid and am extremely pleased with it, and would recommend both it and Woodstock without reservation. Do you use your basement as a living space, or intend to in the reasonably near future? If so, then the basement is a sensible place to locate the stove, in my opinion. If you do not intend to use the basement as a living space, then (if you have room) I would give real thought to leaving the small stove in the basement and installing a stainless chimney in the house with the stove located on the first floor, centrally, and would lean toward a Fireview for size, rather than a PH. I had a Fireview before the PH was made, and found it to be an excellent heater. It would easily heat your upper area. For that matter, a Keystone would likely also do so. They are significantly smaller than the PH. If heating from the basement, I'd definitely go with a PH.

If you definitely cannot/do not want to heat by mean of a stove placed on the first floor, then if you got the PH and found you could not heat the home satisfactorily from the basement, and really need an upstairs stove, you could at a later date install chimney and move the PH upstairs. It has much lower rear clearances than a Fireview, so although larger and requiring more space in front of the glass, it takes the exact same installed place as a Fireview. It is an easily regulated, very efficient stove, so you can burn it with smaller fires if you were to install it upstairs and not require it's full firepower. It, however, is significantly more expensive than a FIreview or Keystone, and overkill for your upstairs, so if initially installed upstairs I would go, as stated, for the smaller stoves.

I found the cost of a chimney install in my home paid for itself in a few years.

My basement is uninsulated concrete block. Admittedly, my stove is not in the basement. However, on all sides six feet of the basement is underground. I have good insulation under the slab floor. My basement stays a comfortable 50 degrees or so all year round, whether it is 100F or -30F outside. I cannot believe that the amount of block exposed outside does not influence heat loss through the block. I don't believe heat loss through a block wall can be as simple a formula as everyone states. I would expect an underground cement block wall to be a much better location for a whole home wood stove than an exposed cement block wall. Mother nature does a good job of insulation from temp swings and wind.

m67tang · Feb 13, 2014

I just did some research here about radiant & convection type heat. Now I see I've been asking the wrong questions.

Highbeam · Feb 13, 2014

All stoves make both radiant and convective heat. Some are designed to get more out of one form than the other but they all make heat and you aren't losing heat by choosing a convective vs. radiant or the other way around. Don't get hung up on this aspect of the heater.

If I had a full basement that I wanted to heat from and I didn't plan to spend time down there then I would consider a wood furnace. That is, if you can live with the short reload cycles and the high purchase cost. If you like the idea of longer burn times and only want to load once per day then an ugly blaze king king with a thermostat and up to 40 hour burn times is an easier burner to operate but not ducted to the upstairs.

m67tang · Feb 13, 2014

rideau said:
If a "little" stove will comfortably heat your home down to 20F outside, then I would think a large stove would do a nice job in just about any temperature.

I have a Progress Hybrid and am extremely pleased with it, and would recommend both it and Woodstock without reservation. Do you use your basement as a living space, or intend to in the reasonably near future? If so, then the basement is a sensible place to locate the stove, in my opinion. If you do not intend to use the basement as a living space, then (if you have room) I would give real thought to leaving the small stove in the basement and installing a stainless chimney in the house with the stove located on the first floor, centrally, and would lean toward a Fireview for size, rather than a PH. I had a Fireview before the PH was made, and found it to be an excellent heater. It would easily heat your upper area. For that matter, a Keystone would likely also do so. They are significantly smaller than the PH. If heating from the basement, I'd definitely go with a PH.

If you definitely cannot/do not want to heat by mean of a stove placed on the first floor, then if you got the PH and found you could not heat the home satisfactorily from the basement, and really need an upstairs stove, you could at a later date install chimney and move the PH upstairs. It has much lower rear clearances than a Fireview, so although larger and requiring more space in front of the glass, it takes the exact same installed place as a Fireview. It is an easily regulated, very efficient stove, so you can burn it with smaller fires if you were to install it upstairs and not require it's full firepower. It, however, is significantly more expensive than a FIreview or Keystone, and overkill for your upstairs, so if initially installed upstairs I would go, as stated, for the smaller stoves.

I found the cost of a chimney install in my home paid for itself in a few years.

My basement is uninsulated concrete block. Admittedly, my stove is not in the basement. However, on all sides six feet of the basement is underground. I have good insulation under the slab floor. My basement stays a comfortable 50 degrees or so all year round, whether it is 100F or -30F outside. I cannot believe that the amount of block exposed outside does not influence heat loss through the block. I don't believe heat loss through a block wall can be as simple a formula as everyone states. I would expect an underground cement block wall to be a much better location for a whole home wood stove than an exposed cement block wall. Mother nature does a good job of insulation from temp swings and wind.

I'm starting to get some knowledge about this stuff now. So is the PH a radiant or convection stove? Does it have a fan? I do plan to finish my basement in the next couple years. One of my drawbacks on a kuuma furnace is I believe most all the heat will be upstairs, just like my heat pump. I cannot get good heat in basement with my furnace. Yet, a wood stove will heat basement and even my little wonderwood still heats the main floor good down to about 25f , depending on wind chill even lower.

begreen · Feb 13, 2014

No Woodstock stove has a fan or fan option. If you put in a wood furnace (look at the Caddy too) then there is no reason why it couldn't heat the basement too as long as you accept the heat loss (and burn more wood). The heating issue you are having with your heat pump in the basement is because it is uninsulated. The heat pump's output is significantly lower than a wood furnace's. The heat loss thru the walls is exceeding the heat gain.

A wood furnace like the Caddy will be putting out about 60,000+ btus/hr., a BK King @51,580 btus/hr. vs the maybe 36,000 btus/hr the heat pump is trying to put out at say 30F outside.

begreen · Feb 13, 2014

rideau said:
My basement is uninsulated concrete block. Admittedly, my stove is not in the basement. However, on all sides six feet of the basement is underground. I have good insulation under the slab floor. My basement stays a comfortable 50 degrees or so all year round, whether it is 100F or -30F outside. I cannot believe that the amount of block exposed outside does not influence heat loss through the block. I don't believe heat loss through a block wall can be as simple a formula as everyone states. I would expect an underground cement block wall to be a much better location for a whole home wood stove than an exposed cement block wall. Mother nature does a good job of insulation from temp swings and wind.

Dirt has a huge heat capacity and regardless of how much energy you pour into heating the basement, unheated walls and cement floors will stay at about 50-55 degrees. They suck up heat like a sponge. The air will warm up but the walls will stay cold. So yes, the basement can stay at a moderate temp if the sill and rim joist are tightly sealed, but bringing the basement temp up 20 degrees can take a lot more energy than taking an upstairs room up the same 20 degrees. The solution is simple, insulate the walls and ideally the floors too if you are going to be spending a lot of time there.

m67tang · Feb 13, 2014

I knew I found a place to learn! This is incredible. What a resource. I'm gonna check out the caddy too. Also take a look at the BKK.

jeff_t · Feb 13, 2014

I don't know about other furnaces, but my hotblast furnace kept my uninsulated basement in the mid 60s, just by radiant heat off the front of the thing and duct losses. It isn't like a regular furnace. No on/off, it is making heat all the time unless you let the fire go out.

Heating 1350 sq ft with a furnace should allow you to duct some of that heat into the basement. You would probably half to since you said upstairs is well insulated.

dave_376 · Feb 13, 2014

one important question no one asked yet was which us stove you currently have. We would need to know how big or small it is before anyone could speculate whether a Progress Hybrid will be large enough. My gut feeling is that a PH wont cut it, 2700 sqft is a lot of area for a stove that is rated for 2200 sqft especially since half of it is basement.

m67tang · Feb 13, 2014

My stove is a wonderwood. Thought I already put that out here, my bad. I have a 6" chimney flu and plan to stay that size. I know that too limits my options. So far I'm leaning Kuuma furnace. Even though I'd rather get a larger wood stove for when basement is finished. I don't really have room for a second wood stove upstairs so that too limits my options. Probly will end up realizing my only choice is the furnace. But I'd rather have a stove for looks, if it'll still heat the house. This year it's been really colder than average & my stove has run it's heart out, not really keeping up.
I put the little wonderwood in only expecting to leave it a few winters. So here I am ready to move on trying to find my right way. Lot of choices, lots of expense. Can't re do this for at least 5 years or more.

rideau · Feb 13, 2014

You did mention the Wonderwood earler.

I am heating over three thousand square feet from the first floor (basement not heated) with my PH. It is rated 2200 sq ft by Woodstock, but Woodstock is deliberately very conservative. I am located Zone 5/borderline Zone 4, just south of Ottawa, Canada. Very exposed, windy site with lots of windows.

I believe a PH would heat your home.

If you would prefer a stove and already have a 6 inch flue, I'd go for the PH. If you get it for the next burn season...arrange delivery for late September or early October, maybe. Burn it for next winter. If you feel it is not enough stove for you, you can return it for a full refund to Woodstock within six months of purchase. Then you could go with your second choice, a furnace.

But with a decently insulated 1400 sq foot home that is heated satisfactorily from the basement in temps to 20 to 25F with a smaller stove, I believe the PH would heat your home just fine. And it is a beautiful stove, an addition to a home.

m67tang · Feb 13, 2014

Yes the PH is gorgeous!
I did notice the 6 month money back warranty. Taking advantage of that might be my best bet. Thank you for pointing this out.

m67tang · Feb 13, 2014

rideau said:
You did mention the Wonderwood earler.

I am heating over three thousand square feet from the first floor (basement not heated) with my PH. It is rated 2200 sq ft by Woodstock, but Woodstock is deliberately very conservative. I am located Zone 5/borderline Zone 4, just south of Ottawa, Canada. Very exposed, windy site with lots of windows.

I believe a PH would heat your home.

If you would prefer a stove and already have a 6 inch flue, I'd go for the PH. If you get it for the next burn season...arrange delivery for late September or early October, maybe. Burn it for next winter. If you feel it is not enough stove for you, you can return it for a full refund to Woodstock within six months of purchase. Then you could go with your second choice, a furnace.

But with a decently insulated 1400 sq foot home that is heated satisfactorily from the basement in temps to 20 to 25F with a smaller stove, I believe the PH would heat your home just fine. And it is a beautiful stove, an addition to a home.

What burn times do you get with the PH when it's opened up to heat. Also, do you run wot for you home?

rideau · Feb 13, 2014

I wouldn't recommend the stove unless I believed you would not need to use the return guarantee. However, if you did need to, rest assured Woodstock is very pleasant about a return and very easy to work with. It is a great fallback, when you are fairly certain the stove will work AND is really your first choice.

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