Bought a Harman Today

HillofBeans · Feb 17, 2014

Hello,

I'm new to the forum and wanted to introduce myself. I live in Eastern Pennsylvania and just bought my first pellet stove. I've lived in a 2500 sq ft. colonial that was built 5 years ago. Since then, I've watched the price of propane go up and up. I stumbled upon this website as I researched the price of propane, trying to talk myself out of coughing up $5000.00 for a heating source that I knew little about.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SPA_DPG&f=W

It doesn't take a genius to see this trend aint turning around. It's what really forced me to act. I've read close to 100 threads on this site and others to help me understand how pellet stoves work and the benefits of ownership. If you're reading this, you have probably helped me get to this point in some small or large way.

Anyway, I priced out several models. I was very compelled by the Regency GCI60, but too many issues seemed to come up in my research. I love the contemporary look of the stove, but the way it feeds and the control board turned me off. I hate push pads. They scream "Future problem" to me. I ended up going with a Harman 52i insert.

I am in the process of ripping out an old and little used propane fireplace (for sale if you want it). Install of the new stove will be on Friday (2-21-14). I can't wait for the day that I don't have to freeze my ass off and listen to my wife complain about the thermostat setting.

Cost always seems to be of interest on these threads, so here it is: $5321.00 installed. I went with an OAK. The dealer actually recommended it (which I've come to learn doesn't always happen because they make little $$$ for the hassle). Dealer also included a ton of free pellets after I bought my first ton (which are included in the price I mentioned above { $259.00}). If you deduct those pellets, the price is more like $5060.00, which I think is fair. I'd be interested to know if any of you think I got fleeced.

Overall, I think I did pretty well. I met a dealer (from Alburtis, PA for those you looking) who I like and learned a lot from. Comparable prices on this unit and other makes of similar performance were close or higher. Everyone seemed to get in this factoid ( prices will go up 3% in April, as they do every year.) Not sure if that's true or not, but it was time to act anyway. The unit itself ended up costing me 3650.00 after a 250.00 rebate. 600 for the install. I have a feeling that I'll be getting a few bucks back, as he included some piping that will probably not be used in the install.

One question I do have relates to the size of piping. One dealer priced out 4" pipe. The other 3". Why the difference.

Thanks to all of you who take the time to help out newb's like me. I'm sure I'll be asking you some questions sometime very soon.

Dave

Bioburner · Feb 17, 2014

One dealer may figure that if 4 inch is used the possibility of ash build up over the season wont matter as inserts are harder to clean and access or the length is right on edge of no go for 3. Good luck, we need to see pictures. With the price of propain still high you will get some return on investment yet this season

alternativeheat · Feb 17, 2014

Congratulations on your new purchase, enjoy the heat ! That's a beautiful insert.

I won't comment on pricing because dealers and locations make a difference in this. Not so much on the stove price but install and install materials, if the OAK is DT piping ( part of the vent pipe) or a separate pipe etc. In the long run, more than likely you didn't get fleeced any more or less than I did or someone else did someplace else in the country or the world, even if the prices seem different.

Generally on an insert install where the pipe goes to the top of the chimney at least around here, they would use or suggest using 4" vent pipe. What needs to happen is what is in the install instructions that come with the stove. So say it's a short run relatively speaking, the instructions may allow for 3" vent pipe but a dealers preference would be 4". Various bends and couplers enter into the equation as well. Again, around here and if the liner is going to the top of the chimney ( all dealers would suggest that here), it's automatic to use 4" vent pipe. I did mine that way which is free standing with 25' up the fireplace chimney for instance.

Enigma869 · Feb 17, 2014

I paid a bit less than that (including installation) for my P68. That said, don't drive yourself nuts over the price. You'll be VERY happy with a pellet stove. My only regret is that I didn't purchase one years ago. Welcome to the club, and I can attest to the fact that your wife will get off your case, and fast. My wife is ALWAYS cold, so I couldn't imagine life without this heat monster in our family room.

boo boo · Feb 17, 2014

Congratulations on your stove you will love heating with pellets. It is a bit more work than writing a check for propane but the heat is very enjoyable and the savings is worth it. My p43 is heating my 1800 sq ft colonial home @73 right now. Yours should be fine

Lake Girl · Feb 17, 2014

Congrats on the new stove and welcome to the forum

I hope the dealer you are working with is the one that said he was using 4" pipe... As to the price, hard to compare an insert to a free standing stove. Insert going into a space were there was a propane fireplace means you also have a zero clearance cabinet added to the price (don't necessarily need that for a masonry chimney). Make sure you have a surge protector and CO detector. Looking forward to pics when the install is done

HillofBeans · Feb 17, 2014

alternativeheat said:
Congratulations on your new purchase, enjoy the heat ! That's a beautiful insert.

I won't comment on pricing because dealers and locations make a difference in this. Not so much on the stove price but install and install materials, if the OAK is DT piping ( part of the vent pipe) or a separate pipe etc. In the long run, more than likely you didn't get fleeced any more or less than I did or someone else did someplace else in the country or the world, even if the prices seem different.

Generally on an insert install where the pipe goes to the top of the chimney at least around here, they would use or suggest using 4" vent pipe. What needs to happen is what is in the install instructions that come with the stove. So say it's a short run relatively speaking, the instructions may allow for 3" vent pipe but a dealers preference would be 4". Various bends and couplers enter into the equation as well. Again, around here and if the liner is going to the top of the chimney ( all dealers would suggest that here), it's automatic to use 4" vent pipe. I did mine that way which is free standing with 25' up the fireplace chimney for instance.

Good to know. I emailed the dealer with the question, so hopefully I'll get an answer tomorrow. The unit will be installed in the corner of the living room. Home builder cut the outside corner of the room and put the fire place in on an angle. I hate the set up, but have to work with it. The unit will exhaust out the back of the wall. No chimney. Probably a very short run. Thanks for the knowledge.

HillofBeans · Feb 17, 2014

Lake Girl said:
Congrats on the new stove and welcome to the forum I hope the dealer you are working with is the one that said he was using 4" pipe... As to the price, hard to compare an insert to a free standing stove. Insert going into a space were there was a propane fireplace means you also have a zero clearance cabinet added to the price (don't necessarily need that for a masonry chimney). Make sure you have a surge protector and CO detector. Looking forward to pics when the install is done

Forgot to mention that the zero clearance cabinet was $310.00. Added cost stinks, but in the long run it's relatively immaterial. Would you assume the installer would provide the surge protector or is that something I will need to take care of myself? CO detector is already plugged into the wall from when we moved in. I'll probably invest in one for the upstairs. Thanks for the advice.

Dave

Lake Girl · Feb 17, 2014

You have to provide the surge protector ... many here use a Tripp Lite. Keep us posted...

The Grintch · Feb 17, 2014

Congratulations you picked a great stove!

The price is fair, but the heat and $avings will be seen for years to come!!

NHcpa · Feb 17, 2014

HillofBeans said:
Hello,

I'm new to the forum and wanted to introduce myself. I live in Eastern Pennsylvania and just bought my first pellet stove. I've lived in a 2500 sq ft. colonial that was built 5 years ago. Since then, I've watched the price of propane go up and up. I stumbled upon this website as I researched the price of propane, trying to talk myself out of coughing up $5000.00 for a heating source that I knew little about.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SPA_DPG&f=W

It doesn't take a genius to see this trend aint turning around. It's what really forced me to act. I've read close to 100 threads on this site and others to help me understand how pellet stoves work and the benefits of ownership. If you're reading this, you have probably helped me get to this point in some small or large way.

Anyway, I priced out several models. I was very compelled by the Regency GCI60, but too many issues seemed to come up in my research. I love the contemporary look of the stove, but the way it feeds and the control board turned me off. I hate push pads. They scream "Future problem" to me. I ended up going with a Harman 52i insert.

I am in the process of ripping out an old and little used propane fireplace (for sale if you want it). Install of the new stove will be on Friday (2-21-14). I can't wait for the day that I don't have to freeze my ass off and listen to my wife complain about the thermostat setting.

Cost always seems to be of interest on these threads, so here it is: $5321.00 installed. I went with an OAK. The dealer actually recommended it (which I've come to learn doesn't always happen because they make little $$$ for the hassle). Dealer also included a ton of free pellets after I bought my first ton (which are included in the price I mentioned above { $259.00}). If you deduct those pellets, the price is more like $5060.00, which I think is fair. I'd be interested to know if any of you think I got fleeced.

Overall, I think I did pretty well. I met a dealer (from Alburtis, PA for those you looking) who I like and learned a lot from. Comparable prices on this unit and other makes of similar performance were close or higher. Everyone seemed to get in this factoid ( prices will go up 3% in April, as they do every year.) Not sure if that's true or not, but it was time to act anyway. The unit itself ended up costing me 3650.00 after a 250.00 rebate. 600 for the install. I have a feeling that I'll be getting a few bucks back, as he included some piping that will probably not be used in the install.

One question I do have relates to the size of piping. One dealer priced out 4" pipe. The other 3". Why the difference.

Thanks to all of you who take the time to help out newb's like me. I'm sure I'll be asking you some questions sometime very soon.

Dave

NH quote...
52I. insert $3599. Works out to 10% off MSRP.
Install Labor. $550
Rail system. $139
25' chimney pipe $475

I'm pretty handy and my son is a RPI grad, but I will have professionally installed for insurance and warranty purposes. Without hesitation, the dealer did not recommend OAK. I have researched, and I'm on the fence... I like the idea of venting from the fireplace clean out ( remove the cover plate) and will pull air from unfinished basement. I have a fairly tight modern home, but room is all glass and am concerned with draft sucked from windows through the room to the unit. This said, I have concerns with downdraft and dryers, fans, etc ....that may pull air from unit in to the house. Anyway, I'm looking for an august install so have time to decide. This is only one quote and I have at least 2 other dealers to get quotes. Very much looking forward to next winter!

newf lover · Feb 17, 2014

They never seem to hesitate when they say you don't need an OAK. Ask them why the manual says this
Outside Air:
Hearth & Home Technologies recommend attaching
outside air in all installations, especially lower level and
main floor locations

cory127 · Feb 17, 2014

Just posted a similar situation! Curious to see how the 52i does heating your house. I have a similar size and am trying to decide between a P68 and the 52i.

boomhour · Feb 17, 2014

Congrats on the new stove . If anything, this winter has proven a battery back up should be your next order of business. I'm sure someone will chime in with the right setup for your stove.

HillofBeans · Feb 17, 2014

boomhour said:
Congrats on the new stove . If anything, this winter has proven a battery back up should be your next order of business. I'm sure someone will chime in with the right setup for your stove.

Sounds expensive. Might be a "down the road" purchase. Dealer warned me to watch what generator I hook up to it. Something about screwing up electrical system.

By the way, should the power go out while running the stove without a backup, can anyone recommend a protocol? Can I expect to be "smoked out" of my house? Dangerous?

Lake Girl · Feb 17, 2014

NHcpa said:
I'm pretty handy and my son is a RPI grad, but I will have professionally installed for insurance and warranty purposes. Without hesitation, the dealer did not recommend OAK. I have researched, and I'm on the fence... I like the idea of venting from the fireplace clean out ( remove the cover plate) and will pull air from unfinished basement. I have a fairly tight modern home, but room is all glass and am concerned with draft sucked from windows through the room to the unit. This said, I have concerns with downdraft and dryers, fans, etc ....that may pull air from unit in to the house. Anyway, I'm looking for an august install so have time to decide. This is only one quote and I have at least 2 other dealers to get quotes. Very much looking forward to next winter!

Get off the fence ... install the OAK when liner installation is done = cheaper than going back later to install. What else is in the basement? Dryer, furnace? The whole point is you want to avoid a negative air situation which would develop if air source is being used by multiple appliances. Outside air is just that - outside...

tjnamtiw · Feb 17, 2014

If your exhaust is going right out the back of the fireplace, I fail to see why you would need 4" pipe....... Of course, either size for that short of distance wouldn't make much difference in price except for adapters to go from 3" to 4".

alternativeheat · Feb 18, 2014

HillofBeans said:
Sounds expensive. Might be a "down the road" purchase. Dealer warned me to watch what generator I hook up to it. Something about screwing up electrical system.

By the way, should the power go out while running the stove without a backup, can anyone recommend a protocol? Can I expect to be "smoked out" of my house? Dangerous?

I almost went straight out the back of my fireplace ( old fireplace will never use it again as a fireplace, didn't mind the hole). However a call to Harman set me straight and we installed all the way to the top of the chimney. If you have no chimney to go to the top of I suggest a 3 or 4' rise once the venting is outdoors. The you don't have to worry about back draft if the power goes out. We had a power outage Sat night, first time since the stove went in. no problem, the flame just burns uninhibited till it's out. So glad I went vertical.

Harman has a horizontal install listed in the install instructions, it's their least suggested way. If you do that, you just about must use OAK and the inlet pipe need to be below the outlet pipe outdoors. But seriously, put in a vertical rise outside, 3 ' should work. You will just have better draft if run a couple of ft of horizontal and then up 3' or so.

What I've done for generator power is power the main heating system. In a power outage I run oil and it kills me. But I'm not changing out my 5500 watt generator really soon to put n a 2000 with pure sine wave when half the house can run on the 5500 to include my tenants kitchen work station, his refer and some lights over there. His heat is on our oil heat as well. So I may get a power inverter with pure sine wave and hook that to my boat battery that I keep indoors in the winter and a charger to that, then the charger plugged into the gen or a live outlet. As I said, about half my house runs on generator in a power outage. And that gen is easy on gas too, it runs pretty close to 12 hours on 4.5- 5 gal of gas. This will be an experiment though so I'm not advocating running and doing this.

alternativeheat · Feb 18, 2014

cory127 said:
Just posted a similar situation! Curious to see how the 52i does heating your house. I have a similar size and am trying to decide between a P68 and the 52i.

Given the choice in that size house I'd go with a P61 or P68 for the added insurance that it will do the job on severely cold nights. Day in and day out otherwise, the 52i should be fine. Much depends on the layout and insulation factors.

Inserts are perfect for when you want to take a useless fireplace or like the OP, a little used and expensive to use Propane insert out and put in a beautiful looking and functional insert/stove like the 52i. 2500 sq ft is the upper limit for the 52i, if the house were older it might struggle. For a P68 2500 sq ft is upper middle road, plus you get a fair amount of radiant heat off both it and the P61. Sure to use more pellets than a 52i though.

tjnamtiw · Feb 18, 2014

alternativeheat said:
I almost went straight out the back of my fireplace ( old fireplace will never use it again as a fireplace, didn't mind the hole). However a call to Harman set me straight and we installed all the way to the top of the chimney. If you have no chimney to go to the top of I suggest a 3 or 4' rise once the venting is outdoors. The you don't have to worry about back draft if the power goes out. We had a power outage Sat night, first time since the stove went in. no problem, the flame just burns uninhibited till it's out. So glad I went vertical.

Harman has a horizontal install listed in the install instructions, it's their least suggested way. If you do that, you just about must use OAK and the inlet pipe need to be below the outlet pipe outdoors. But seriously, put in a vertical rise outside, 3 ' should work. You will just have better draft if run a couple of ft of horizontal and then up 3' or so.

What I've done for generator power is power the main heating system. In a power outage I run oil and it kills me. But I'm not changing out my 5500 watt generator really soon to put n a 2000 with pure sine wave when half the house can run on the 5500 to include my tenants kitchen work station, his refer and some lights over there. His heat is on our oil heat as well. So I may get a power inverter with pure sine wave and hook that to my boat battery that I keep indoors in the winter and a charger to that, then the charger plugged into the gen or a live outlet. As I said, about half my house runs on generator in a power outage. And that gen is easy on gas too, it runs pretty close to 12 hours on 4.5- 5 gal of gas. This will be an experiment though so I'm not advocating running and doing this.

I figured since it was a gas insert that it probably was not a real fireplace with a real flue system. Kinda like the other recent posts. Just a studded out box and a pipe for the gas fumes. I'd put some vertical in there too.

On the generator issue, I also have a 5500 generator that I would run 12 gauge extension cords into the house to the ref's and other essentials but I've been thinking about 'T'ing off of the lead to my clothes dryer (220) and plugging into it during an outage. Kill the main breaker and then just turn on the individual breakers that I truly need. Good idea about the boat battery and charger. I'll use my solar batteries and PSW inverter for the stoves. I DID read somewhere that it is not recommended to plug into the dryer 220 line but never could find out why. Is that what you do?

HillofBeans · Feb 18, 2014

tjnamtiw said:
If your exhaust is going right out the back of the fireplace, I fail to see why you would need 4" pipe....... Of course, either size for that short of distance wouldn't make much difference in price except for adapters to go from 3" to 4".

Dealer made a mistake. Said he'll use 4" at no cost to me. #winning!

alternativeheat · Feb 18, 2014

tjnamtiw said:
I figured since it was a gas insert that it probably was not a real fireplace with a real flue system. Kinda like the other recent posts. Just a studded out box and a pipe for the gas fumes. I'd put some vertical in there too.

On the generator issue, I also have a 5500 generator that I would run 12 gauge extension cords into the house to the ref's and other essentials but I've been thinking about 'T'ing off of the lead to my clothes dryer (220) and plugging into it during an outage. Kill the main breaker and then just turn on the individual breakers that I truly need. Good idea about the boat battery and charger. I'll use my solar batteries and PSW inverter for the stoves. I DID read somewhere that it is not recommended to plug into the dryer 220 line but never could find out why. Is that what you do?

On the Gen through the cloths dryer line you would be backfeeding. Back feeding is illegal and linemen have been killed from this, not mention you can overload the circuitry or the Gen this way. Much better to put in a very fool proof transfer switch. Now everyone shutters over the transfer switch install. Go to Reliance Controls web site and they have very very good videos on how to wire these in. Once done your house is safe, the Lineman is safe and your Gen will perform as rated . Best of all it passes an insurance inspection.

iceguy4 · Feb 18, 2014

Lake Girl said:
Get off the fence ... install the OAK when liner installation is done = cheaper than going back later to install

I cant agree more

newf lover said:
They never seem to hesitate when they say you don't need an OAK. Ask them why the manual says this
Outside Air:

Personally this might be a deal breaker for me... the dealer is more concerned with HIS profits ...then your "situation" Even if your house is as "loose as a goose", it may get "tightened up " at some point down the road and as Lake girl said "cheaper than going back later to install"

NHcpa said:
Very much looking forward to next winter

shut up

LOL

EDIT:
"no pic's...it didn't happen"

alternativeheat · Feb 18, 2014

tjnamtiw said:
If your exhaust is going right out the back of the fireplace, I fail to see why you would need 4" pipe....... Of course, either size for that short of distance wouldn't make much difference in price except for adapters to go from 3" to 4".

When I was considering the 52i and going straight out the back the dealer said they would use 4", in part because right at the stove a 90 would be required. Assume a vertical would be used even if short outside , then you need a T or a second 90. 4" just assures less resistance, ends any doubt for little money.

DOLLARBILL · Feb 18, 2014

Congratulations youve bought the Best ,thats just my opinion ! now your staying warm and not getting ***** on the price of fuel !

Bought a Harman Today

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