morso 5660 hard to use

bovine0001 · Feb 17, 2014

I had a Morso 5660 installed last winter and I have enjoyed and despised it too. My setup is as such:

2 story house, with woodstove downstairs.
gas insert in upstairs, seperate flue
4" air vent in wall adjacent to woodstove
the stove is ducted through masonry chimney
chimney topped with wind vane type cap

My problem is that even with a hot fire going, smoke will still come out when I SLOWLY open the door.

I do have some wicked draft problems, namely my house is pretty airtight and if a fan is on upstairs, I will have a reversed draft in the stove. Twice, when I forgot to light a little paper at the flue to correct the direction of the draft, smoke came out of the air intake of the stove. I find it amazing, but I have been able to solve this problem by being careful with starting a fire and typically, if the coals are hot and not smoldering, there is no effective smoke to enter the room when I open the door and add more wood.

Obviously, I would like to stop ANY smoke entering the room and be able to open the door WHENEVER I would like.

I feel like the problem is the draw or draft up the duct is weak, so that even with adequate air supply to the room and no other fans going, it still does not draw well.

I hope this is not a flaw of the stove and would hope there is a way to correct my draft issues.

begreen · Feb 17, 2014

Welcome. Is the insert connected to a full 6" stainless liner to the top of the chimney? When was it last cleaned?

oconnor · Feb 17, 2014

In addition to begreens question, be aware that basement installs with external flues often have issues with smoke spillage. Try opening a window in the room when you reload and see if that makes a difference.

mass_burner · Feb 17, 2014

welcome, I also have a 5660 and let me tell you this model takes a bit of learning in terms of smoke escaping. First of all, I have never had any issue when lighting, my stove is in my living room. That being said, the Morso doesn't like to opened while burning. The flush mount design I believe is to blame. Its best to load, light, latch the door and don't go back in until reload. The quicker you can master this process, the happier you'll be. As you have found, once a red-hot coal bed is established, you can open and reload without incidence. One tip: before opening the door to reload, open the air to full, unlatch the door and crack it to briefly for a few seconds to remove any smoke near the top opening. Then open fully and reload.

I don't quite understand your statement about being able to "open the door WHENEVER I would like". Other than starting, reloading, why would you want to open it?

bovine0001 · Feb 17, 2014

wow, so many replies. Thanks.

Begreen, It should be a 6" stainless duct. I had discussed the use of a stainless, flexible duct, but I see there was a "Saf-T Liner" manual with the papers left by the installer. I suppose I will have to get in there to see what the installer actually did. I have not cleaned it yet, but has barely been used through this season.

Oconnor, even with the air vent, I need to open a door? Holy crap! I was trying to avoid it, not only because it is annoying, but also leads to cold air in the room.

Mass_burner, You are spot on and I think you did a better job describing the process I follow as well. I sometimes wonder if the top of the door opening was an inch lower, if smoke would not come rolling off catalytic grate (sorry, I don't know the jargon) right into the room. In terms of opening the door when I would like, the most common instance would be if I want to add some more wood prior to going to bed and don't want to wait until the flames are burned down to hot coals or the fire is dying and needs to be prodded a bit.

Thanks again.

oconnor · Feb 17, 2014

The vent will bring in make up air but isn't going to equalize the relative low pressure in the basement to the outside.

Sounds like you are dealing with stack effect issues that get worse with fans upstairs etc.

bovine0001 · Feb 18, 2014

oconner, My downstairs is mostly above ground. one wall is underground and the opposite wall, where the fireplace/stove is, is above ground . The bottom floor is barely a daylight basement as maybe only 20% is below ground. My house is on a steep hill. I don't know if that is enough to create a low pressure zone. I guess I don't quite understand how a basement would have a lower pressure zone. I feel it is likely a bit cooler, not too much, than upstairs but is that enough to create the lower pressure?

If I am dealing with stack effect (which I need to look up), how does one solve it? I have even considered adding a chimney fan or duct fan to solve this.

Thanks

mass_burner · Feb 18, 2014

bovine0001 said:
Mass_burner, You are spot on and I think you did a better job describing the process I follow as well. I sometimes wonder if the top of the door opening was an inch lower, if smoke would not come rolling off catalytic grate (sorry, I don't know the jargon) right into the room. In terms of opening the door when I would like, the most common instance would be if I want to add some more wood prior to going to bed and don't want to wait until the flames are burned down to hot coals or the fire is dying and needs to be prodded a bit.

When I have reloaded under those conditions, a few small puffs can escape, but since your going to bed anyway, what's the issue? I also keep a fan running on low in the farthest corner from the stove pointing toward the stove to spread out the heat. That air movement will dissapate a few small amount of smoke easliy. Other than that, I would say try to time your loads more precisely.

Hickorynut · Feb 18, 2014

Mass_burner and bovine 001, you are not alone. I have the same situation with a lopi freedom unless it is really cold out and the draft is really strong, Sometimes when we are leaving for awhile and the fire is down some where I would love to top it off with a piece, I don't/can't unless I want a llittle smoke

mass_burner · Feb 18, 2014

Hickorynut said:
Mass_burner and bovine 001, you are not alone. I have the same situation with a lopi freedom unless it is really cold out and the draft is really strong, Sometimes when we are leaving for awhile and the fire is down some where I would love to top it off with a piece, I don't/can't unless I want a llittle smoke

I don't notice any difference in the stove's behavior in relation the outside temp and wind. I get no smoke leakage issues if I want to open and add a big split. Its only if its early in the burn cycle and the door is opened more than about 6". The trick is doing the cold setup properly. Once the stove has been burning for more than an hour or so, i can open and add a split if i wanted to, but i rarely need to.

blazincajun · Feb 18, 2014

bovine0001 said:
...My downstairs is mostly above ground. one wall is underground and the opposite wall, where the fireplace/stove is, is above ground...
If I am dealing with stack effect (which I need to look up), how does one solve it? I have even considered adding a chimney fan or duct fan to solve this.

Thanks

Outside chimneys do have problems and some of them can be adjusted so that the woodstove can be correctly used.
Here is a link that simply describes the stack effect and ways to overcome it. http://woodheat.org/all-about-chimneys.html

Hickorynut · Feb 18, 2014

mass_burner said:
I don't notice any difference in the stove's behavior in relation the outside temp and wind. I get no smoke leakage issues if I want to open and add a big split. Its only if its early in the burn cycle and the door is opened more than about 6". The trick is doing the cold setup properly. Once the stove has been burning for more than an hour or so, i can open and add a split if i wanted to, but i rarely need to.

Yeah mass burner, further along on the burn it isn't really visible smoke, just that wood burning smell. Definitely, you don't want it in the house though. I am different in that I can really tell a draft difference depending on the outside temp, say single and teens vs. thirties through fifty. You learn to make it work and be content.

blazincajun · Feb 18, 2014

By the way I assume that you open your bypass before opening your stove's door? Just checking

oconnor · Feb 18, 2014

Blazincajun beat me to the best link I know to explain chimney issues. Good to see the knowledge is getting around.

bovine0001 · Feb 20, 2014

blazincajun said:
By the way I assume that you open your bypass before opening your stove's door? Just checking

Bypass? I presume this is something that allows direct airflow to the duct, allowing stronger draft. I do not have one. Seems like an oversight by Morso.

I read the website listed above and I see a couple problems that could cause my stack effect: The stove store offered a stainless steel flexible duct that was not insulated and I think this makes up the majority of the ducting in my chimney, with probably only the Saf-T liner being at the stove to duct junction. This could lead to the duct being too cold, I guess. That said, I have a hard time believing this is a problem later into a fire when it is piping hot. I still need to access my chimney and duct and see exactly what size duct I have to make sure I do not have a restriction.

Am I right to presume that after a fire is burning well, the draft should be strong enough to deal with a cold chimney and negative pressure issues of a downstairs stove, except if there was a restriction in the duct?

mass_burner · Feb 20, 2014

bovine0001 said:
Bypass? I presume this is something that allows direct airflow to the duct, allowing stronger draft. I do not have one. Seems like an oversight by Morso.

I think he means the air lever at the bottom. That's the only air inlet I have and have never had a draft issue. On the 5660 its impossible to completely shut the air off, even with the air lever closed completely.

blazincajun · Feb 20, 2014

bovine0001 said:
Bypass? I presume this is something that allows direct airflow to the duct, allowing stronger draft. I do not have one. ...

I thought you had a cat when you were trying to figure the jargon out

bovine0001 said:
... I sometimes wonder if the top of the door opening was an inch lower, if smoke would not come rolling off catalytic grate (sorry, I don't know the jargon) right into the room. ...

bovine0001 said:
... I read the website listed above and I see a couple problems that could cause my stack effect: The stove store offered a stainless steel flexible duct that was not insulated and I think this makes up the majority of the ducting in my chimney, with probably only the Saf-T liner being at the stove to duct junction. This could lead to the duct being too cold, I guess. That said, I have a hard time believing this is a problem later into a fire when it is piping hot. ...

I don't know what to say, until all recommendations are met from the guidelines listed in heat.org, there will always be some doubt. Outside chimneys and their performance are impacted by winds, drafts from other buildings, height, temperature, location and other influences. Who knows, could be a faulty heater or just an unusual year.

bovine0001 said:
... Am I right to presume that after a fire is burning well, the draft should be strong enough to deal with a cold chimney and negative pressure issues of a downstairs stove, except if there was a restriction in the duct?

I don't necessarily believe that you could presume that. There could be some other factors like those listed above. I guess if there is a disconnect somewhere along the chimney that may contribute to your problems as well. If you add wood while the fire is still actively burning there may be just too many gases for the opened door to overcome. Just add wood after all the wood has been consumed by flames. Have fun!

bovine0001 · Feb 24, 2014

So, i checked out my duct, it is 6", insulated and I can see no obstructions or restrictions in the line. I feel like i could have stack effect problems, but don't think i can fix them any better than I have and feel like I have met the recommendations of woodheat.org. I feel like this stove design is also a part of this problem. The baffle is slanted to direct the smoke towards the door, rather than the back of the stove and duct. This feels awfully silly. I would guess if folks had a nice positive pressure in that room and a super good draft, they would not see this problem. Also, the top of the door frame is level with the opening over the top of the baffle to go to the pipe. Smoke goes up, slants towards the door off the baffle, and skips the opening over the baffle and out the the door it goes. If smoke is going to be directed at that space, that framing should be lower to block some of the smoke from entering the room. I don't think Morso did that because would not be as pretty. honestly, if I could figure out how to temporarily place some steel in the top of the door frame to effectively lower it, I would and if it worked, I would then see if one my welding buddies couldn't attach it permanently.

oconnor · Feb 24, 2014

The start of wisdom is calling things by their right names. A duct would move heated air inside a home. What you are referring to is a flue.

I can guarantee you that something else is going on. Your issue is insufficient draft. Could be stack effect, but based on my read of the posts, it is more likely wood moisture content, technique (not getting the stove hot enough) or both

mass_burner · Feb 25, 2014

bovine0001 said:
So, i checked out my duct, it is 6", insulated and I can see no obstructions or restrictions in the line. I feel like i could have stack effect problems, but don't think i can fix them any better than I have and feel like I have met the recommendations of woodheat.org. I feel like this stove design is also a part of this problem. The baffle is slanted to direct the smoke towards the door, rather than the back of the stove and duct. This feels awfully silly. I would guess if folks had a nice positive pressure in that room and a super good draft, they would not see this problem. Also, the top of the door frame is level with the opening over the top of the baffle to go to the pipe. Smoke goes up, slants towards the door off the baffle, and skips the opening over the baffle and out the the door it goes. If smoke is going to be directed at that space, that framing should be lower to block some of the smoke from entering the room. I don't think Morso did that because would not be as pretty. honestly, if I could figure out how to temporarily place some steel in the top of the door frame to effectively lower it, I would and if it worked, I would then see if one my welding buddies couldn't attach it permanently.

if you have bad pressure and draft issues, does it really matter which stove your running? also, if you have that much smoke running toward the front off the steel top plate, there's something not right in the firebox. and if there is, why would you want to open the door?

as a 5660 owner, I have no smoke issues unless i have opened a colder stove where the wood has not been burned enough. i definitely wouldn't go altering the design of the stove. I have 2 inserts, and the other is more forgiving about when I can open the door and smoke seepage. but the 5660 just takes a bit more patience at the start. once a fire is going and coals are established you should have no smoke issues on reloading, I don't.

morso 5660 hard to use

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