Pellet boiler in conjunction

chken said:

Okay, I figure if I switched over to a pellet boiler, I could burn between 7 and 8 tons to replace my oil use. Based upon oil prices and bulk pellet prices, I figure that would save me around $1500. Seeing as everyone has different pellet needs, some burn more and some less, how long would I need to break-even if burning 7 to 8 tons saves me $1500?

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EXCLUDING the fact that most of keep things warmer because we burn pellets...I figure 1 ton of pellets equals 120 gallons of heating oil my figures for this year are as follows....11 tons of pellets cost me on avg 200/tn = $2200.00 11 X 120 =1320 gallons...@ $ 380/gal (its closer to 4.00/gallon now) =$5016.00....I saved $2816.00 just this year.

chken said:

For all of you who put in Biowins, Kedels and Harmans, what was your payback period? Or did you calculate your break-even by the number of tons of pellets you burned, and if so, how many tons did you have to burn to break-even?

Also, I'm assuming all of you who piped in your pellet boilers/furnaces in serial and parallel had an extra flue to use?

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Don't forget Pinnacle! When I bought mine in 2008 oil was approaching $5.00/gallon, so my payback period would have been between 4-5 years. I jokingly said when I bought it, "watch oil go down to $2.00/gallon", which it did. However, it wasn't all about saving money, but getting off the dino juice and doing a little bit for our environment. I save anywhere between $1000 - $1500 a year, depending on the price of the pellets I buy, and the price of oil. Taking an average figure, my payback will be 7-8 years.

chken said:

Okay, I figure if I switched over to a pellet boiler, I could burn between 7 and 8 tons to replace my oil use. Based upon oil prices and bulk pellet prices, I figure that would save me around $1500. Seeing as everyone has different pellet needs, some burn more and some less, how long would I need to break-even if burning 7 to 8 tons saves me $1500?

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You can spend 10K installed to 20K+ installed, so it is impossible to answer this.

Dana B said:

What kind of symptoms would a boiler exhibit if it there an inadequate supply of comubustion air?

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Incomplete burn, sooty (more than usual), need to clean chimney more often. Same as if you had air infiltration into the system.

Dana B said:

My level of understanding of the mechanical/plumbing/appliance aspects of heating a home pales in comparison to many of the posters on this website but i think that we all understand is that you can have the latest and greatest, most expensive heating appliances and equipment but if you have not properly air sealed and insulated your home then you're just throwing your money away.

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Dana B said:

I don't have one and I'm assuming I'm getting enough combustion air as the boiler has been running without issue.

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You're pulling air from somewhere.

sinnian said:

Incomplete burn, sooty (more than usual), need to clean chimney more often. Same as if you had air infiltration into the system.





You're pulling air from somewhere.

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Is it not pulling air from the basement itself?

I have a barometirc damper on the unit and when Marc from Windhager was at my house checking up on the boiler he said that he noticed it was opening a good amount indicating a very strong draft. Is an overly strong draft a sign of a combustion issue?

iceguy4 said:

So your not using an OAK because your rim joists are foamed? why not remove it and re-foam it with a can to "touch it up"

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Not sure why you assumed that. I don't use an oak because I was advised against it.

I would NOT have spray foamed the joists, and just had the batts of insulation in there, had I known that I was going to get a wood burning appliance in the basement, as the appliance would have negated most of the draft caused by the air filtration.

BTW can you show me a picture or better yet a video of you holding your hand on the glass of your PB105, and then the stack ~ since of course it is so well insulated.

sinnian said:

Not sure why you assumed that. I don't use an oak because I was advised against it.

I would NOT have spray foamed the joists, and just had the batts of insulation in there, had I known that I was going to get a wood burning appliance in the basement, as the appliance would have negated most of the draft caused by the air filtration.

BTW can you show me a picture or better yet a video of you holding your hand on the glass of your PB105, and then the stack ~ since of course it is so well insulated.

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Are you implying that all of the cold air coming into the basement through the rim joists would have been consumed by the combustion process of the boiler and not have contributed to the stack effect in your home? I find that difficult to believe. I don't know about your house but in mine I could feel the cold gushing in through some of the rim joist bays.

Dana B said:

Is it not pulling air from the basement itself?

I have a barometirc damper on the unit and when Marc from Windhager was at my house checking up on the boiler he said that he noticed it was opening a good amount indicating a very strong draft. Is an overly strong draft a sign of a combustion issue?

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No, having a strong draft is good. However, if your basement is sealed tight like it is, and like mine is, you are pulling air from upstairs which somewhat defeats the purpose since you just heated that air. It is somewhat of a Catch-22. I would not have sealed my joists had I known. I was advised against an OAK due to the issue of, "what happens if it gets plugged". My bulkhead is right next to my pellet boiler, so not much of an issue.

I too was advised against using an OAK by the pellet boiler distributor. I don't regret having the rim joists foamed though. My first floor floors are signifcantly warmer now and even if my boiler is drawing some warm air from the floors above the basement as you say, I've not noticed it in the actual warmth/performance of the home and boiler.

Dana B said:

Are you implying that all of the cold air coming into the basement through the rim joists would have been consumed by the combustion process of the boiler and not have contributed to the stack effect in your home? I find that difficult to believe. I don't know about your house but in mine I could feel the cold gushing in through some of the rim joist bays.

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Mine wasn't gushing, as it has/had batts, and they used those foam pads between the foundation and the sill. So while there was some air infiltration when I had an energy audit done, it wasn't horrible. The insulation contractor just explained it to me as though what air was coming in was creating a draft effect for the rest of the house going up. The pellet boiler would have when burning (which is a LOT this winter) stopped that draft to an extent. I also wouldn't have spent that grand

sinnian said:

I was advised against an OAK due to the issue of, "what happens if it gets plugged".

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That sounds like a valid reason not to use an OAK....why doesn't the person(who advised you) apply the same logic to the chimney?

iceguy4 said:

EXCLUDING the fact that most of keep things warmer because we burn pellets...I figure 1 ton of pellets equals 120 gallons of heating oil my figures for this year are as follows....11 tons of pellets cost me on avg 200/tn = $2200.00 11 X 120 =1320 gallons...@ $ 380/gal (its closer to 4.00/gallon now) =$5016.00....I saved $2816.00 just this year.

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Thanks, as I currently run a freestanding pellet stove, I did consider in the "warmer" than with oil factor, in doing my estimate. And, I did my math similar to yours, but I adjusted down, because the differential between pellets and oil does fluctuate. Oil is mostly $3.80 here, though some places are $3.99, but earlier this season in Nov., I got oil at $3.37 and my tank still had oil from last March at $3.22. So, I was trying to be conservative.

Dana B said:

I think there are far too many variables that are unique to each person's situation to give an accurate number:

1. how much is the boiler going to cost?
2. Professional install? How much will it cost?
3. Do you need a liner dopped down? What will it cost?
4. What are the cost of pellets in your area? Will the remain stable over the next 5 years?
5. How well insulated and air sealed is your home? Are there any cheap/cost effective improvements you can make to your home that will shorten the payback period on a pellet boiler?
6. Will next winter be as cold as this winter? The colder and harsher the winter the more you will spend on whatever type of fuel you use so even if switching to pellets you will be saving more as you spend more on pellets.
7. Will you be using the pellet boiler for DHW? If not could you possibly use it for DHW for DHW to save more?


I think a safe bet is to say that you're looking at a minimum payback period of five years for a best case scenario. More likely a few years more than that though.

By the way what figure did you use for oil = pellets when determining how many tons you'd need?

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Of course, too many variables is correct, but having read a number of threads over at the boiler forum, I got the sense that people were reluctant to say how much their installation cost, so I thought it might help me in thinking about payback and break-even periods, which tries to factor in all those variables into one neat number.

Just to get an idea of how others approached such a large financial decision. It seems like the answers so far are veering towards a 7+ year payback, but I didn't really know if their pellet needs were in the same ballpark as mine. I always assume payback is faster the more pellets you need, so I threw out there, my guesstimate for pellets is 7 to 8 tons, based upon my current oil usage over the last 4 years, and how my usage changed with my freestanding pellet stove. I'm guessing most people with boilers were using more than 7 to 8 tons, which means their break-even estimates of roughly 7 years, probably means longer for me.

As for all of your excellent questions, one problem is my house is a bit unusual which makes comparisons hard. That's why I was trying to figure out how many tons of pellets people were burning in making their estimates.

Of course I used 120 gallons per ton as my btu equivalent.

chken said:

Of course, too many variables is correct, but having read a number of threads over at the boiler forum, I got the sense that people were reluctant to say how much their installation cost, so I thought it might help me in thinking about payback and break-even periods, which tries to factor in all those variables into one neat number.

Just to get an idea of how others approached such a large financial decision. It seems like the answers so far are veering towards a 7+ year payback, but I didn't really know if their pellet needs were in the same ballpark as mine. I always assume payback is faster the more pellets you need, so I threw out there, my guesstimate for pellets is 7 to 8 tons, based upon my current oil usage over the last 4 years, and how my usage changed with my freestanding pellet stove. I'm guessing most people with boilers were using more than 7 to 8 tons, which means their break-even estimates of roughly 7 years, probably means longer for me.

As for all of your excellent questions, one problem is my house is a bit unusual which makes comparisons hard. That's why I was trying to figure out how many tons of pellets people were burning in making their estimates.

Of course I used 120 gallons per ton as my btu equivalent.

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Prior to the pellet stove, how many gallons a year of oil were you using?


I paid a flat fee of 3K back in 2008 for installation ~ included all plumbing (parallel) and venting, with installation.

sinnian said:

Prior to the pellet stove, how many gallons a year of oil were you using?


I paid a flat fee of 3K back in 2008 for installation ~ included all plumbing (parallel) and venting, with installation.

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Under 800 gallons year-round, which works out to about 6.5 tons of pellets, but based upon having a free-standing stove this year, I realize I will likely be heating warmer than in years past, so thus estimated 7 to 8 tons.

Wow, 3k in 2008! That's about the time I last looked for a pellet boiler. I saw MeSYS had a pellet boiler display at the Fryeburg fair, and back then they had something that looked like a Janfire pellet injector attached to what looked like a Buderus. I went to my local dealer/dist, J&S oil, and they told me it was like 8k to 10k, a bit more than what I was ready to pay back then for what seemed like new tech. I didn't want to buy something that would be orphaned in a few years since I had never seen a bulk pellet delivery truck. Now, of course, with more options and a better understanding, I'm starting to think about it again.

ontario star said:

Hello,
I have a 2,500 sq ranch with a finished basement. I have a propane boiler system that works at 80%. I was thinking of getting a pellet insert to put in the fireplace on the first floor however, after some research I am thinking of getting a pellet boiler to use for the whole house. My question is.... ( I am a new homeowner and pretty ignorant about a lot!!) do they make the pellet boilers to work in conjunction with my propane boiler so that I can leave for the weekend or a week without having to worry about feeding pellets? Thanks....

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I have a pellet boiler and and an oil boiler connected in parallel to a 100 gallon Triangle Tube DHW tank. Both boilers are separated by check valves and the pellet boiler has priority. I connected the T-T contacts on the oil boiler's aquastat to the snap switch on the thermostat of the DWH tank and can simply adjust the temperature at which the tank switch fires up the oil. It's very simple and works flawlessly. no manual valves and all automatic.

In Europe pellet boilers are commonly used in conjunction with a fossil fuel fired boiler, either oil or gas. My understanding is that the fossil fuel boiler is used under very cold temperatures. I don't know if it runs separately or makes up the difference where that the pellet boilers cannot. But there's no reason why they cannot run independently when needed. If you're afraid of running out of pallets when your away, think of using a bulk storage and automated delivery system.

chken said:

For all of you who put in Biowins, Kedels and Harmans, what was your payback period? Or did you calculate your break-even by the number of tons of pellets you burned, and if so, how many tons did you have to burn to break-even?

Also, I'm assuming all of you who piped in your pellet boilers/furnaces in serial and parallel had an extra flue to use?

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My initial calculation was something like 10 years since I already burned wood.... 4-5 cord a year + 300 gallons of oil or so to heat my downstairs and DHW year round.

If I was burning oil alone, my ROI would be more like 3 years.

As it turns out, I will be getting a better payback than I initially calculated due to higher efficiency of the boiler than I was expecting, and some other improvements. I blew 15 bags of insulation in my attic and installed new windows upstairs in the maine living space of my raised ranch this year which tightned things up exponentially since the windows were half heartedly chinked with a little fiberglass initially. They are now sealed with foam and the air does not move through the house like it used to. I also installed a dehumidifier heat pump for summer time DHW which costs me about $0.75/day in electricity. I purchased 6 tons of pellets this year thinking I would be over the top just a little. Here we are in March and I've only used 3.5 tons since late September start up. The boiler will be secured most likely in May. My new calculated ROI for all my work this year is about 6.5 years and a massive learning experience on how to do my next house even better.

SmokeEater said:

I have a pellet boiler and and an oil boiler connected in parallel to a 100 gallon Triangle Tube DHW tank. Both boilers are separated by check valves and the pellet boiler has priority. I connected the T-T contacts on the oil boiler's aquastat to the snap switch on the thermostat of the DWH tank and can simply adjust the temperature at which the tank switch fires up the oil. It's very simple and works flawlessly. no manual valves and all automatic.

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I did the exact same thing, only difference I guess is I did put flow checks in later since I was loosing 7*F an hour on my 80 gallon HTP Superstor tank. I realized it was drafting up the stack of the offline pellet boiler (oil boiler has a Riello burner with a hydraulic damper shut off). Installing the flow checks changed my offline tank temperature drop from 7*F to 2*F/hr with no zones calling.

As far as your last question that I forgot to ask, chkn... I have a seperate flue already. I had an upstairs and downstairs wood stove with it's own chimney so I removed the downstairs stove. It's legal to have 2 appliances with the same fuel source on the same flue, but my insurance company did not like it. They were happy with me putting an 8" plug in the thimble upstairs, taking a picture and sending it to them. I leave the plug in there with the stove still in my living room. If the power goes out I just remove the plug.

Big bonus about the BioWINs and the Harmon's is they are rated for direct vent. The Kedel is rated for powervent using an induced draft fan to balance the draft. It has a curve pre built into it that you can manipulate from low, mid, and high fire to change the fan speed to keep a slight negative in the firebox. I am looking to do that set up for my grandmother since she does not have an extra flue.

chken said:

Under 800 gallons year-round, which works out to about 6.5 tons of pellets, but based upon having a free-standing stove this year, I realize I will likely be heating warmer than in years past, so thus estimated 7 to 8 tons.

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I used about 800 gallons per year, and now typically use about 5 tons, but always buy 6. I just bought another ton (so that'll be 7 total) ~ just in case ~ but this has been an unusually cold winter.

I also bought and had installed an electric hot water heater (50 gal) which is used as storage when I am burning pellets, and is my source for DHW when I am not. That way I can just the oil and pellet boilers down. I didn't notice a difference in my electric usage. This spring/summer I think I will replace it with a hybrid since I run a dehumidifier down in the basement anyway.

DZL_Damon said:

As far as your last question that I forgot to ask, chkn... I have a seperate flue already. I had an upstairs and downstairs wood stove with it's own chimney so I removed the downstairs stove. It's legal to have 2 appliances with the same fuel source on the same flue, but my insurance company did not like it. They were happy with me putting an 8" plug in the thimble upstairs, taking a picture and sending it to them. I leave the plug in there with the stove still in my living room. If the power goes out I just remove the plug.

Big bonus about the BioWINs and the Harmon's is they are rated for direct vent. The Kedel is rated for powervent using an induced draft fan to balance the draft. It has a curve pre built into it that you can manipulate from low, mid, and high fire to change the fan speed to keep a slight negative in the firebox. I am looking to do that set up for my grandmother since she does not have an extra flue.

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Thanks for all the info. My biggest difficulty is the venting, as the south side of my house has a full-length deck, while the north side is over 15' from my utility room, and the vent would have to go thru the home theater, which is hardly ideal. So, my only choice is to use the existing oil boiler flue, which is too bad since I'd like to do a serial setup like many have done in this thread. Particularly since my Buderus is not that old at 10 years. The existing old flue when I bought this house 40 years ago had 4 appliances, an oil DHW, oil furnace, coal furnace, and a kerosene cast-iron cookstove!

sinnian said:

I used about 800 gallons per year, and now typically use about 5 tons, but always buy 6. I just bought another ton (so that'll be 7 total) ~ just in case ~ but this has been an unusually cold winter.

I also bought and had installed an electric hot water heater (50 gal) which is used as storage when I am burning pellets, and is my source for DHW when I am not. That way I can just the oil and pellet boilers down. I didn't notice a difference in my electric usage. This spring/summer I think I will replace it with a hybrid since I run a dehumidifier down in the basement anyway.

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Yep, I already have a Geospring heat pump hot water, that I plumbed in serial with my existing indirect DHW tank.

So I did study my south side deck area, and I realize with a little create adaptation of my utility room, I could put in a pellet boiler direct vent 12" from the deck, far enough from the ground and far enough from any operable windows. That would allow me to keep my existing Buderus oil boiler, and pipe it in serial.

Any of you New England PB105 owners with the external 1500lb hoppers qualify for the $5000 or $6000 rebates in ME/NH/VT? Has anyone tried the HF60?

It does not appear it would work for the Efficiency Maine Rebate.

They JUST published known, approved boilers on Friday: http://www.efficiencymaine.com/docs/Eligible-Pellet-Boiler-Criteria-and-List-2-28-14.pdf

They do say additional units may be available though. Call and ask, they are nice folks there.

sinnian said:

Don't forget Pinnacle! When I bought mine in 2008 oil was approaching $5.00/gallon, so my payback period would have been between 4-5 years. I jokingly said when I bought it, "watch oil go down to $2.00/gallon", which it did. However, it wasn't all about saving money, but getting off the dino juice and doing a little bit for our environment. I save anywhere between $1000 - $1500 a year, depending on the price of the pellets I buy, and the price of oil. Taking an average figure, my payback will be 7-8 years.



You can spend 10K installed to 20K+ installed, so it is impossible to answer this.

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Just happened to be on Forest Ave, so I thought I'd drop in to Evergreen to learn a bit more about the Pinnacle. Well, it's a PapaJohns now. Funny thing is there's a Revision Heat office right behind where Evergreen used to be at 1037 Forest, and they carry Kedels. Say they sold 40 this year.