Job creation from a 1%er

jharkin said:

It would mean a lot more money right back into the system buying the products and services you sell. People at the bottom spend every dollar they make and save almost nothing.

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I've seen you echo this sentiment several times, and it's flawed logic. Yes, folks at the bottom might spend every dime they make, but they're still spending a hell of a lot less than me. I spent more on home improvement last year than someone making minimum wage will even make in a year, all money directly back into the economy. Hell, I spend more on my combined utility bills than some people make per year. Al Gore spends more on jet fuel each year than you'll make between now and you're retirement. Folks at the bottom might not be saving much, but they're certainly not spending much either.

Now, to add another bit of unsupported claim to the fray, I'd argue that those at the top of the ladder are adding more to job creation at the local level (I have at least one contractor working at my house almost every week), than those at the bottom of the ladder (who are spending a larger percentage of their money at mega-corp WalMart and McD's). How many stone masons, carpenters, and painters is someone making minimum wage going to support?

Joful said:

I've seen you echo this sentiment several times, and it's flawed logic. Yes, folks at the bottom might spend every dime they make, but they're still spending a hell of a lot less than me. I spent more on home improvement last year than someone making minimum wage will even make in a year, all money directly back into the economy. Hell, I spend more on my combined utility bills than some people make per year. Al Gore spends more on jet fuel each year than you'll make between now and you're retirement. Folks at the bottom might not be saving much, but they're certainly not spending much either.

Now, to add another bit of unsupported claim to the fray, I'd argue that those at the top of the ladder are adding more to job creation at the local level (I have at least one contractor working at my house almost every week), than those at the bottom of the ladder (who are spending a larger percentage of their money at mega-corp WalMart and McD's). How many stone masons, carpenters, and painters is someone making minimum wage going to support?

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And Ive got more money invested into my radio control flying "toys" than a minimum wage guy earns in a year....

But what are we proving here?... other than the fact you could buy and sell me, and in turn I could buy and sell somebody on minimum wage.

Sure its in my best interest for me to shut up and go along, since right now wage inequality disproportionately benefits me just as it does you (I saw the writing on the wall when engineering was going overseas and did the mercenary jump to management track as my friends got laid off) but long term is constantly increasing inequality good for the health of our society? Does the CEO of my company really need to make 50x what I make, or could he be just as happy at a mere 5x what I make? (and at a company like GE its more like a 500x ratio to the line employees)
Is it really good if we end up with 99% of the population living in project housing while 1% of us live on 50 acre country estates? Sounds like a recipe for an American spring someday...

Rome had the answer for that I guess... Bread and Circuses... Gladiator games... today we call it welfare and reality TV.


[ Dont take this as a personal attack Joful... I have a lot of respect for you, just a point we disagree on. ]

jharkin said:

[ Dont take this as a personal attack Joful... I have a lot of respect for you, just a point we disagree on. ]

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No problem, or offense taken, Jeremy. You know I intentionally throw these little jabs out for just that effect.

jharkin said:

Does the CEO of my company really need to make 50x what I make, or could he be just as happy at a mere 5x what I make? (and at a company like GE its more like a 500x ratio to the line employees)
Is it really good if we end up with 99% of the population living in project housing while 1% of us live on 50 acre country estates?

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I think these are different issues, and on these I think we agree. Very few CEO's are worth the salaries they make. However, there's not a direct line from here to there, when bringing this into a debate on minimum wage, without dragging in a whole bunch of people in between. These guys aren't the 1%, they're the 0.001%.

BTW... I'm not even a 1%'er. Currently hovering around 4% - 5%..

Joful said:

No problem, or offense taken, Jeremy. You know I intentionally throw these little jabs out for just that effect.

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hahahaha I know, I should admit I do it a lot too. Bomb a thread then watch the fireworks...

Ehouse said:

Eliminate all "thresh holds", "brackets", and other hard demarcation lines and go to a sliding scale with income "to the penny", and subsidy "to the penny". All you need to know is at what income the subsidy (or Tax for that matter) begins and ends. Picture a nice smooth set of intersecting curves in an hour glass shape. The node at the waist represents point of end subsidy/begin tax. Eliminate internal resentment and save a ton of money.

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that sounds like socialism to me. If we all make the same wages,,,,I am going to quit and join the unproductive people. Every other worker will too. Why bust my butt to give it to other people while they sit on their butts?

When the workers get tired of supporting the non-workers,,, and join them,,it is all over. It won't be long now!

Store up some food and get some wood cut before you can't buy any gas!

Doug MacIVER said:

staples just announced closing 255 stores. 10% of their brick and mortar. the goes how many jobs with a fraction added due to internet sales, answer center probably in suburban city, take your pick india, china ??? not even min wages can save or preserve jobs.

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If only they had read this thread! Then they could have doubled the wages of the workers there and stayed in business! Their profits would have increased! My god why didn't we tell them! Why! Why!

ironpony said:

more like 19.50/hr 30% front load

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That depends on the benefits.

Todays BIg business model is buy products for pennies from slave labor countries,import them at a 3% tariff, and sell for huge markups to american consumers. Interrupt that model and they quickly go under.

This back & forth is fun to read.

I sure would appreciate someone telling me what is so valuable at the bottom that we should work so hard to get there?

I have seen what I would consider close to the bottom in my travels. Folks from Haiti can be quite enlightening on just what being near the bottom is like, parts of the Dominican as well, throw in some areas of Mexico while I am at it.

From their descriptions of what being near the bottom is like, I know that I want nothing to do with it. So still I remain curious as to what is there (at the bottom) that anyone would want to be there. Gotta be something real good if we are willing to give up all that we have compared to them to get to where they are.

We have members that can comment on China & India & what it's like there for the average Joe. Bangladesh is close to them & I would consider them to be at the bottom currently, however with so many (seemingly) wishing to get down there & compete with Bangladesh in terms of wages, well they may have some fierce competition for the bottom rung soon.

Gotta be something real good at the bottom to justify all this effort to get there. Anyone care to share what they hope to find at the bottom? Genie in a bottle?, free booze & cigs?, all the houses made of Ginger bread? Or is it what I imagine, a life of total squaller with virtually no opportunity.

Nowhere in this thread has anybody said we're asking for the bottom (except for you). We just have differing ideas on how to make the country prosper.

As far as I'm concerned, doubling the minimum wage would be a sure step in the race to the bottom

Frozen Canuck said:

We have members that can comment on China & India & what it's like there for the average Joe. Bangladesh is close to them & I would consider them to be at the bottom currently, however with so many (seemingly) wishing to get down there & compete with Bangladesh in terms of wages, well they may have some fierce competition for the bottom rung soon.

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Ive been to both countries 3 times each. My dealings over there are with well off middle class professionals, and even what they deal with I would not like to live. Ive seen the living conditions of the poor there, but only from a car window. We dont want to go there. not even close.

We have a lot of high school dropouts to employ here in america. As a job creator myself, iv found just as often my employee may make more than i do ,if everything dont go as planned. I like to pay by the job lately instead of by the hour. It s amazing how little some can do in an hours time. Everything changes when its pay for results.

jharkin said:

We dont want to go there. not even close.

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Agreed & a large part of the reason I see no logic in the lower wage side of this discussion. We can see what lower wages leads to = lower living conditions. Are we not supposed to be elevating or a the very least maintaining what we have?

Frozen Canuck said:

This back & forth is fun to read.

I sure would appreciate someone telling me what is so valuable at the bottom that we should work so hard to get there?

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Its our Govt and their trade policies,that have wages racing to the bottom. That force americans to compete with corrupt, impoverished countries you describe. THose decisions are way above our pay grade. Why is it Happening? I suppose the 1% ers here in america have so much money thay can bend and craft govt policies to benefit them and not the other 99% .

The fact that Bangladesh has both lower wages and a lower standard of living is not proof that lower wages cause a lower standard of living.

Frozen Canuck,, you certainly are obsessed with this bottom thing. Like was mentioned,,no one else is but you,,,,,but hey! If thats what you want to pretend is happening, lets look at that.

Since you know so much about people "on the bottom" in other parts of the world,,,you should know they are poor. We'll compare them to the minumum wage guy in the US.

Some of those poor people "on the bottom" around the world live in a hut,,, and that is all they have. Hmmm,,, done with them already.

Min wage people in US have:
cell phones
cars
homes
toys
support children
color tv
radio's
stereos
mp3s
different colored shoelaces
candles
gloves
food
bicycles
tape measures
internet
computers
guns
beer
cigs
hats
expensive drugs
cheap drugs
pocket knives
shoes
socks
cable
fingernail clippers
sofa
bed
pay for haircuts
pets they don't eat
heat
air conditioning
motorcycles
showers
soap
x box
patio chairs
tents
more childrens toys
car seats
welfare
free education
free emergency room care
Canadians trying to get them raises

i could go on and on and on and on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

maybe we are far from "on the bottom" here? Maybe you see a non existing problem?

jharkin said:

Ive been to both countries 3 times each. My dealings over there are with well off middle class professionals, and even what they deal with I would not like to live. Ive seen the living conditions of the poor there, but only from a car window. We dont want to go there. not even close.

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Same here,those people dont like their situation any more than we like ours. Iv seen the living conditions close up ,as in living with people in 3rd world countries for months at a time. In those countries the rich rule openly with an iron fist. Here in america they do it from cover.

Razor face is right on that one. 3#rd world poor have nothing. Really nothing. Iv been there. Your sick in a 3rd world country and you just might die.
Unless you have relative or friends to help you your screwed. Govt only helps thenselves there.
Edit razorface,they do have fingernail clippers and soap(on your list) .Most expensive possession is usually a reloadable cell phone. May not have a minute load all the time though.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against the rich. Many of us aspire to be just that. I do have a problem when some of the 1% in collusion with lawmakers (many of whom are in the 1%) tilt and manipulate the playing field so that they are the only group prospering in the country,as its been for the last 20-30 years.

Frozen Canuck said:

I sure would appreciate someone telling me what is so valuable at the bottom that we should work so hard to get there?

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Frankly, I never understood the question. Bottom of what? I make more each year, and plan to continue doing so. Am I in a race to the "top"? You can have the bottom, whatever it is.

Joful said:

Frankly, I never understood the question. Bottom of what? I make more each year, and plan to continue doing so. Am I in a race to the "top"? You can have the bottom, whatever it is.

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The race to the bottom is responding to the idea that to be competitive with 3rd world labor our labor here at home has to get cheaper (i.e. lower wages). To be honest at this point the thread is so convoluted I'm not sure who or even if anyone actually said that

Joful said:

Frankly, I never understood the question. Bottom of what? I make more each year, and plan to continue doing so. Am I in a race to the "top"? You can have the bottom, whatever it is.

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I agree, upwards one more year then I am cashing out. Heading to ST Croix retired, 54, should give me a few good years on the beach. It will be a slightly lower standard of living but the money will go far.
Maybe I am voluntarily moving to the bottom?? make room at the top for the young guns.

jharkin said:

The race to the bottom is responding to the idea that to be competitive with 3rd world labor our labor here at home has to get cheaper (i.e. lower wages). To be honest at this point the thread is so convoluted I'm not sure who or even if anyone actually said that

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One of the recent presidents had said the world will be equal or something like that, no one realized it meant we were going down, not them coming up.
Although with 3rd world country wages slightly increasing there is less value in going over there.