Bioburner
Moderator
Northern Minnesota got pretty cold when the Manitoba blew the NG line to the US. Still no propane in the tank farms around me. A lot interest in southern properties.
Wood Pellets or Natural Gas - Supply issues
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Bioburner
Moderator
From what I read that a rupture occurred close to a valve station. Frost heave creating problem like its doing down here to things with this record cold?
Winnipeg is having a big problem with frozen water lines right now ... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-s-frozen-water-pipe-list-hits-new-high-1.2564455
SmokeyTheBear
Minister of Fire
Put'em down deeper and really insulate all tap lines . I wonder how water based heat pumps are working it that area.
If it's anything like my water line not good. Too much rock in my area to bury very deep. Less than 2 year old in line heat trace died. Not sure when it exactly died but finally froze enough to no longer be able to draw water about a month ago. Our temporary line with the external heat trace does not live up to the -50 claim. We've learned the hard way to wrap line around the pipe (you're not supposed to) and cycle frequently 
. I had to uninsulate sections to wrap closer together and add more heat trace to keep it going. Limping along and hoping we don't get any more -30s. Next water line will have internal and external heat trace like the old one. We replaced and moved to a more protected spot when the submersible quit after about 17 years.
Mind you heat pump lines are constantly cycling so as long as the pump doesn't fail... You'd have to know where the thermocline sits if using a lake loop as the water that is currently 8' deep is dang cold!
. I had to uninsulate sections to wrap closer together and add more heat trace to keep it going. Limping along and hoping we don't get any more -30s. Next water line will have internal and external heat trace like the old one. We replaced and moved to a more protected spot when the submersible quit after about 17 years.Mind you heat pump lines are constantly cycling so as long as the pump doesn't fail... You'd have to know where the thermocline sits if using a lake loop as the water that is currently 8' deep is dang cold!
SmokeyTheBear
Minister of Fire
Yeah that's fine in theory but when the entire area is really low in temperature the frost line drops and that heat pump is taking the last remaining heat outta the ground. Then best you have every bit of the tap lines well insulated and a secondary source of heat
I'd have hoped by now folks would not go for average winter conditions and add in a healthy safety factor.
Mother Nature doesn't give a rats behind about theory, design calculations, nor ones stash size.
I switched to Gas 2 years ago. Furnace was 20+ years old, tank and oil lines were 40+. So I gained pellet space where tank was, and eliminated a HUGE liability. Saving a ton with the gas hot water and heat all year. Pellets assist, and a great backup.
A properly designed system should not be a worry even in the coldest winter. Even if the frost line drops the system still will work not as well but it would still work. Most heat pumps cut out at 20F for inlet water temperature and should have protection to about 10-15F. Also this winter was not that bad keep in mind there was snow cover which actually insulates the ground. A bad winter for a heat pump would be brutal cold and no snow cover. The coldest our loop has gotten this winter has been 31.8 for a incoming water temperature they design for 30F. I suspect the ground actually is in the high 30s to low 40s at loop depth.
Woodman37
New Member
I live in east ohio in the heart of Marcellus and Utica shale areas. All the wells here are just starting to produce. Gas companies have almost every acre of land leased in my area. Still on my road we have no NG. I would love to have it for cooking and hot water. I still have two heating sources the add on central wood burner and the old stand by oil furnace. Also have a generator to run the wood burner if the power goes out. If NG ever becomes available here I will be all over it.
This can't be good.....looks cool but something about 60' flames pouring out of the earth seems like a bad idea...
You should see them at night! All of the gas wells (at least the horizontally hydro-fracked ones) get flared-off for maybe 3-5 days. I've heard that it's done to blow out all the loose "stuff" from the wells, allowing them to feed clean/pure gas into the pipelines.
Pellet-King
Minister of Fire
JustWood
Minister of Fire
Correct . They are also flared to reduce pressure at the well head so when they hook into mainline they don't blow valves/pipe.
This winter has been quite the experience ... been heating with oil and wood stove for years. Started building a new house last year and made a conscious decision to use a"greener" form of heating in the new house. Unfortunately our new neighborhood does not have any NG service so we are going to be using propane to heat the water for our radiant floor and domestic use (as well as cooking).
Also decided to try using a pellet stove a couple of months back to heat the basement while we were working on installing the radiant heating which worked good until the supply ran out and have not been able to find any in my area for the past couple of weeks.
Sure will be nice to move into the new house this summer and not have fill a oil tank any longer...but I am a little worried about this pellet supply shortage issue and the rising price of propane.
Also decided to try using a pellet stove a couple of months back to heat the basement while we were working on installing the radiant heating which worked good until the supply ran out and have not been able to find any in my area for the past couple of weeks.
Sure will be nice to move into the new house this summer and not have fill a oil tank any longer...but I am a little worried about this pellet supply shortage issue and the rising price of propane.
Bioburner
Moderator
Think you will be fine if dedicate some space for your pellet stash and buy early. Propain issue is going to hit the food chain hard here in Minnesota as we produce a lot of turkeys and pigs and they need some heat when young. Corn needs help in drying up here too. Had it on local news that homeowners average cost to heat was up 55% by propain, 10% by NG and the cold does not want to leave.
I will have plenty of space for storage in the basement as it will remain unfinished for the time being.
Seems that I will also have to stock up on Bio Bricks that I am currently using in my wood stove since my local Benny's has run out and does not know when they will get more.
Seems that I will also have to stock up on Bio Bricks that I am currently using in my wood stove since my local Benny's has run out and does not know when they will get more.
mrjohneel
Feeling the Heat
I heat exclusively with pellets but still use oil for hot water. But the oil burner is 35 years old and the chimney is damaged, so I'm taking advantage of the MassSave and National Grid program to convert from oil to gas. I can get a 0% interest loan for 7 years to help finance it. (I also want to gas into my house for a kitchen stove now that my kitchen renovation is complete.)
iceguy4
Minister of Fire
If it's anything like my water line not good. Too much rock in my area to bury very deep. Less than 2 year old in line heat trace died. Not sure when it exactly died but finally froze enough to no longer be able to draw water about a month ago. Our temporary line with the external heat trace does not live up to the -50 claim. We've learned the hard way to wrap line around the pipe (you're not supposed to) and cycle frequently
Mind you heat pump lines are constantly cycling so as long as the pump doesn't fail... You'd have to know where the thermocline sits if using a lake loop as the water that is currently 8' deep is dang cold!
Geez, never seen rock I couldn't get through (even bedrock)...How long a run...city water , how deep is it and how deep does it need to be?
SmokeyTheBear
Minister of Fire
Properly designed requires one to take in consideration what could happen in other than normal situations, for example do not depend on snow cover assume the temperature is going to be lower than it has been in the past.
Not all systems may be "properly" designed. Corners have been known to have been cut.
As for the winter around here while it has been chiller than some years it hasn't been record breaking cold every day (a fine pickle a lot of folks would be in if it had been).
I heard a comment by a weather forecaster and the only thing I could think of was well it could be 1816 and froze to death.
No city water here - draw directly from the lake. We're on a piece of bedrock but ran the line along an area where it drops off and back filled but can't remember the depth. 1-1/2" line with internal heat trace inside 6" pipe with expanded foam. Back to the drawing board...
Mt Bob
Minister of Fire
Probably going to need a recirculating system,but would not have to be closed as can be dumped back into lake,could be on a timer.
iceguy4
Minister of Fire
LG...I have never lived or dealt with the temps where you live. Down here even a slowly dripping faucet will prevent freezing. My guess the recirculating system would be the way to go. The heat tape you say is inside the pipe?as well as around? If that is the case,and the inside heat tape is made for that application, this is how I would approach your situation. I would install a recirculating system with the heat tape inside only. The tape would be for emergency use only (incase it froze.) I wouldent bother to try to insulate it....unless there are obvious areas where the depth is insufficient. I would monitor water temps on a regular basis and only run the recirculating system when temps required it. since the heat tape seems to have a lifespan by using it less frequently its lifespan should be improved. Have you considered a drilled well? BTW...do you consider the lake water potable?
tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
Everyone will switch over to natural gas about the time that the liquification plants get on-line to fill the tankers heading to Europe as He Who Shall Not Be Named promised. That strain on the supply coupled with the proliferation of new natural gas turbine generators for electricity to replace the 50% that WAS generated by coal will make natural gas for we peons too expensive to use.
Back to the furniture, shrubs, stray animals, and homeless for heat!
Back to the furniture, shrubs, stray animals, and homeless for heat!
iceguy4
Minister of Fire
Ouch...that's gonna leave a mark
Yes , I have a big fat picture of where NG prices are going to go.... up...up... and away
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