The reason I ask is that I was really liking what I heard about Vedolux boilers but now my wife is thinking about a pellet boiler instead as they apparently cost less... and there is also an energy rebate for them now. Well my question is, what types of issues, (if any) have those of you that have them or are familiar with them had with them? (Vedolux wood boilers) The reason I like them is they seem to be relatively simplistic in that they require just a natural draft. My wife is concerned about installation and maintenance if it 'breaks down'. Thus the argument for a pellet boiler which she claims might be serviced more easily since there are more distributors for them where I will be moving to (Maine). My own opinion is that 'servicing' for this type of boiler might be akin to servicing a high tech wood stove but I certainly could be very wrong and so I would appreciate any information along w/ any pros/cons for or against pellet boilers or this particular wood boiler. Maple 1, I know has a Varmebaronen, and is satisfied w/ it. Maple1, any feedback you could give would be appreciated.
Has anyone out there had a Varmebaronen wood boiler?
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maple1
Minister of Fire
Quick comments.
After what I have been through, I can honestly say that I would do the same thing over again with the same boiler, and the only thing that would make me consider a boiler with a blower on it (of any brand) is if I didn't have enough chimney for the natural draft unit.
I have only had one 'issue' with mine, that being an upper ceramic showing a crack after a few months of use. I have not done anything about it after a year+ later, it hasn't moved & is protected by a layer of ash. Service was a non-isse for me, as I bought the thing by long-distance from over 1000 miles away & nobody around here knows what a gasifier is. Unless there is some sort of catastrophic failure, there is just nothing to service - aside from replacing a ceramic if it comes to that. No idea what pellet boiler you're thinking of, and I have no experience with any of them - but no matter what you do, consider the service they will need & how often it has to be done & how hard it will be. Or, if you are looking at other wood boilers, same considerations. There is nothing that burns wood in any form that is easier to maintain/service/keep clean, than these things. You will have to live with that aspect for the life of the unit. Do lots of reading on here, there are lots of experiences to be read about.
After what I have been through, I can honestly say that I would do the same thing over again with the same boiler, and the only thing that would make me consider a boiler with a blower on it (of any brand) is if I didn't have enough chimney for the natural draft unit.
I have only had one 'issue' with mine, that being an upper ceramic showing a crack after a few months of use. I have not done anything about it after a year+ later, it hasn't moved & is protected by a layer of ash. Service was a non-isse for me, as I bought the thing by long-distance from over 1000 miles away & nobody around here knows what a gasifier is. Unless there is some sort of catastrophic failure, there is just nothing to service - aside from replacing a ceramic if it comes to that. No idea what pellet boiler you're thinking of, and I have no experience with any of them - but no matter what you do, consider the service they will need & how often it has to be done & how hard it will be. Or, if you are looking at other wood boilers, same considerations. There is nothing that burns wood in any form that is easier to maintain/service/keep clean, than these things. You will have to live with that aspect for the life of the unit. Do lots of reading on here, there are lots of experiences to be read about.
Thanks, Maple. That was kind of what I was thinking. They would have to ship it to ME from PA and then 'servicing' would be 'on my own'. I guess if a ceramic tile did need replacing, as long as you could order it would be something that a mason might be able to do? I've replaced tiles in my bathroom, but a boiler is a totally different thing. I hope you never have to find out, but what do you think? As far as what kind of pellet boiler, we are looking at them all. Hopefully someone here will give their thoughts/experiences on them as well. I'm not really researching any other wood boilers at present, but as you suggest, I will keep reading. The reason I am leaning toward a wood boiler is the easy availability of wood where I will be. Pellets would have to be delivered. Pellets may be a lot less labor intensive, but I don't mind cutting/splitting/stacking wood. Thanks again.
Clarkbug
Minister of Fire
Also have a Varm, but one with forced draft.
Just a few comments about my ownership. I have had a similar crack in my ceramics from the end of the first year, no issues with it. On my third year burning (come up on 20 cord), and will run them another year. That said, I bought a set of ceramics to put on the shelf, since I was driving through PA and didnt have to pay shipping. New install is do it yourself, no mason needed.
Your wife's concerns are valid, but your have picked the one boiler that pretty much eliminates everything that could go wrong. Unless your chimney falls over, its pretty simple to run, not much to go wrong. I would think a pellet stove will require more maintenance and potential for failure (if anyone is reading this from the pellet room, please dont hurt me!)
Also, that model boiler can have a pellet head installed in it, and will then serve as a pellet boiler. So you could have the best of both worlds if you really wanted to. Admittedly the parts would still be in PA, but my dealings with Smokeless Heat have been great, and I have no issues being several hours away.
There are some great pellet boilers out there, and others can guide you down that path. Really I would say you should figure out if you want to handle pellets or cordwood first, since thats a big part of the decision. It would help to know your heating needs also. 3 cord per year is a LOT different from 10 cord per year, as far as space, time, and effort.
Just a few comments about my ownership. I have had a similar crack in my ceramics from the end of the first year, no issues with it. On my third year burning (come up on 20 cord), and will run them another year. That said, I bought a set of ceramics to put on the shelf, since I was driving through PA and didnt have to pay shipping. New install is do it yourself, no mason needed.
Your wife's concerns are valid, but your have picked the one boiler that pretty much eliminates everything that could go wrong. Unless your chimney falls over, its pretty simple to run, not much to go wrong. I would think a pellet stove will require more maintenance and potential for failure (if anyone is reading this from the pellet room, please dont hurt me!)
Also, that model boiler can have a pellet head installed in it, and will then serve as a pellet boiler. So you could have the best of both worlds if you really wanted to. Admittedly the parts would still be in PA, but my dealings with Smokeless Heat have been great, and I have no issues being several hours away.
There are some great pellet boilers out there, and others can guide you down that path. Really I would say you should figure out if you want to handle pellets or cordwood first, since thats a big part of the decision. It would help to know your heating needs also. 3 cord per year is a LOT different from 10 cord per year, as far as space, time, and effort.
Thanks for your thoughts. I didn't know that you could rig the Varm for pellets. I'll have to talk to Smokeless Heat about it. My heating needs are kind of a guess right now as I'm just getting the structure up. It will be about 3000 sq ft. Essentially 30'x40' with a basement and loft. My wife is concerned about the storage requirements for a wood boiler. She seems to think it will take up too much space. The utility space I have for it is 13' x 30' which I feel should be sufficient. I also planned to store my wood there as well, but who knows, it could be pellets. I was thinking I might burn as much as 8 cord/year in ME, but that is just a WAG as you can't really predict the weather that much there. They are still getting sub zero weather there and so 10-12 cord might have been the answer this winter. I really don't have any idea about how many #s of pellets it would require for a winter if we went that route and the amount of space that they would take to store them. If you don't mind my asking, how much wood did you burn this winter and how much space are you heating? Sounds like you are averaging about 6-7 cord/year. I understand it was unusually cold for most of us on the East coast this year. I live in VA. I was thinking I would need to get the Vedolux 60 w/ about 600-800 gal storage. Does that sound about right to you? That is the estimate they gave me at Smokeless. If I do get one, I'll probably get some extra ceramic tiles. Maybe Smokeless can give some guidance for replacing them. Thanks for your help.
flyingcow
Minister of Fire
What part of Maine? Don't need to know the town but up north(above Houlton) central(Bangor) or south/coatsal
Also, whats your target fr R-values in walls and ceilings?
FWIW, i'm just bit south of Houlton, I think we're looking at -6f tonight.
Also, whats your target fr R-values in walls and ceilings?
FWIW, i'm just bit south of Houlton, I think we're looking at -6f tonight.
What part of Maine? Don't need to know the town but up north(above Houlton) central(Bangor) or south/coatsal
Also, whats your target fr R-values in walls and ceilings?
FWIW, i'm just bit south of Houlton, I think we're looking at -6f tonight.
What part of Maine? Don't need to know the town but up north(above Houlton) central(Bangor) or south/coatsal
Also, whats your target fr R-values in walls and ceilings?
FWIW, i'm just bit south of Houlton, I think we're looking at -6f tonight.
I'm trying to get R50 for the roof. I will have log walls- spruce. I am also about an hour south of Houlton. I've been following the temps up there. Pretty darned cold this year!
flyingcow
Minister of Fire
Well, we'll be definitely close to each other. FWIW, if you're buying wood figure about $200 processed and delivered. I paid $370 per 2 cord loads. It did stack up to close to 2 1/2 cord though. Processor tells me the price is going up to $200 a cord.
Tree length, if you can get it, is up to $120+ a tree length(weighted). I've bought 60,000lbs of tree length, 12 cord by weight. Stacked up to 10 1/2 cord. You might be able to find better deals from time to time, but IMO this is the market now. This might help with your decision between pellets and cord wood.
There is wood all around us, but the mills are sucking most of it up. I know of just two mills that are using well above 100 cord(each mill) per hour 24/7.
Also, will your chimney be inside the building or outside?
Tree length, if you can get it, is up to $120+ a tree length(weighted). I've bought 60,000lbs of tree length, 12 cord by weight. Stacked up to 10 1/2 cord. You might be able to find better deals from time to time, but IMO this is the market now. This might help with your decision between pellets and cord wood.
There is wood all around us, but the mills are sucking most of it up. I know of just two mills that are using well above 100 cord(each mill) per hour 24/7.
Also, will your chimney be inside the building or outside?
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Yes, this info is very helpful. I assume what you are getting is all hardwood. When you buy tree length, is it green or seasoned? And do you notice a difference in water content b/w tree length and precut? I would hate to buy a load of tree length and then not be able to use it for a year. They say you can use softwood w/ the gassers but I would definitely prefer hardwood. Pellets are typically from softwood is my understanding and so BTUs /unit volume might something to consider as well. Have you ever used softwood in your gasser? If so, what did you think? Our chimney will be inside. Thanks, neighbor.
I have used red pine and silver maple in my gasifier because I had it from tree removal. Anything will work as long as its dry. I actually like a mix of soft and hard. It seems to run well that way. The bad with red pine is it takes up a lot of space for its weight.
gg
gg
OK, thanks. It's good to know I can use either. Where I'll be living there is a lot of hemlock. I was thinking to dry wood out, I could stick some in the oven when my wife is baking bread to dry it out. Might be fatal. What do you think??
flyingcow
Minister of Fire
One thing we all forgot to mention......once wood is cut/split/stacked it needs to dry close to a year. This is very important, because a gasser needs dry wood. 18 to 24 months of drying and now you;ll get some really btu's from the wood. Also, IMO, there is no such thing as seasoned tree length. At least not as seasoned as it should be. I had some trees left over from a previous year. Cut it up and split it, still in the mid 20's on moisture content. But if stacked in an open area(from May to november) I have had wood dry down to 22/23% at best, it will work but later in the winter you'll notice a big improvement when the wood dries down below 20%. I burn all rock maple and beech.
Whats your time frame on having the house built and into it? Might be able to get 4 cord? all processed and delivered now for late fall early winter burning. At this time I don't know of anyone selling seasoned wood. Google Arthur York-firewood. He's located in Medway, and has been in the firewood business for yrs. He's not one I use, but is a reputable dealer. If someone wants to sell you seasoned firewood, go to buy a Moisture Meter. And talk MC content with them.
the general rule, no matter what you burn wood with, it should be seasoned a year, or at least 9 months. My gasser performs great when the wood is 18%. The amount of wood you'll need a day is more than an ovens full
.
Pellets?? Seems the pellet dealers/processors have been making a decent and consistent pellet. Much better than yrs ago. I'm just going by info from pelletheads around here.
Whats your time frame on having the house built and into it? Might be able to get 4 cord? all processed and delivered now for late fall early winter burning. At this time I don't know of anyone selling seasoned wood. Google Arthur York-firewood. He's located in Medway, and has been in the firewood business for yrs. He's not one I use, but is a reputable dealer. If someone wants to sell you seasoned firewood, go to buy a Moisture Meter. And talk MC content with them.
the general rule, no matter what you burn wood with, it should be seasoned a year, or at least 9 months. My gasser performs great when the wood is 18%. The amount of wood you'll need a day is more than an ovens full
. Pellets?? Seems the pellet dealers/processors have been making a decent and consistent pellet. Much better than yrs ago. I'm just going by info from pelletheads around here.
flyingcow
Minister of Fire
Also, what is your delivery system for heat? Baseboard?Radiant?,etc. Radiant floors or low temp emmitters work very well with a boiler and storage. How many gallons of storage you think you'll need?
Heat load calc? Others need to chime in, whats a good link for figuring a heat load calc. This will give you a good estimate of heat needed.
You say spruce logs? Going to leave them bare on the inside or insulate/walls?
Heat load calc? Others need to chime in, whats a good link for figuring a heat load calc. This will give you a good estimate of heat needed.
You say spruce logs? Going to leave them bare on the inside or insulate/walls?
The logs will be bare on the inside and I will have radiant heat in the floors. I'm not familiar w/ low temp emitters? Please enlighten me. Can/should they be used w/ radiant? In answer to your other question, I already have about 8-10 cord laying on the ground (under the snow). It was cut last summer. I will be cutting it up this spring. I may give Mr. York a call though as I doubt if it will be ready to burn this fall. A moisture meter sounds like a good idea. The house may be somewhat livable by spring, but it will be something like camping out. Still have lots to do, but I'm retiring so I'll have time to do stuff. As far as storage, I figure 600-800 gal. and the heat load w/ the gasser I intend to get were figured by the dealer based on the size of the house. He also recommended 800 gal. for storage. It's all way expensive but I figure it will pay for itself in the long run compared to heating oil or propane. My wife would kill me anyway if the hemlock didn't.
Clarkbug
Minister of Fire
The heat loss will be really helpful for figuring out what size boiler and storage will be optimum for you. But I see that you are looking to use radiant in-floor, which is an excellent match for storage, since you can run the temps very low but still get good output. (that is a low-temp emitter, one that is designed to output heat with lower temperature water) The user "floydian" here has a nice setup that uses one pump, a mixing valve that resets on outdoor air temps, and non-electric control valves. Its pretty slick, IMO. But thats just one way to go.
I have burned about 6 cords, and counting. My space that Im heating isnt valid to state, since it keeps changing (we are renovating, adding rooms that we are heating), plus we had a baby, changed the temp of the house, insulated, etc. So I wouldnt go based on my numbers that much...
The 60 should be plenty of boiler for you, and I would lean towards the 800 gallons if I had that much boiler. 1000 would be better, especially with radiant. You could start your boiler once and let it ride for a whole day, or multiple days during the shoulder seasons.
Smokeless Heat can sell you refractory, and tell you how to put it in, but I think its self explanatory, at least for this boiler. (take out the broken part, put in the unbroken part.)
Definitely think about a heat loss calc before you buy anything. Thats really going to help you more than we can for speculating on a good size for you. Its easy for strangers on the internet to spend other peoples money
Also, get cutting, splitting and stacking now! Dry wood is a must for gasification! And look at it this way, if you go pellets, you can then sell your nice seasoned firewood to someone to buy a few more tons of pellets
The heat loss will be really helpful for figuring out what size boiler and storage will be optimum for you. But I see that you are looking to use radiant in-floor, which is an excellent match for storage, since you can run the temps very low but still get good output. (that is a low-temp emitter, one that is designed to output heat with lower temperature water) The user "floydian" here has a nice setup that uses one pump, a mixing valve that resets on outdoor air temps, and non-electric control valves. Its pretty slick, IMO. But thats just one way to go.
I have burned about 6 cords, and counting. My space that Im heating isnt valid to state, since it keeps changing (we are renovating, adding rooms that we are heating), plus we had a baby, changed the temp of the house, insulated, etc. So I wouldnt go based on my numbers that much...
The 60 should be plenty of boiler for you, and I would lean towards the 800 gallons if I had that much boiler. 1000 would be better, especially with radiant. You could start your boiler once and let it ride for a whole day, or multiple days during the shoulder seasons.
Smokeless Heat can sell you refractory, and tell you how to put it in, but I think its self explanatory, at least for this boiler. (take out the broken part, put in the unbroken part.)
Definitely think about a heat loss calc before you buy anything. Thats really going to help you more than we can for speculating on a good size for you. Its easy for strangers on the internet to spend other peoples money
Also, get cutting, splitting and stacking now! Dry wood is a must for gasification! And look at it this way, if you go pellets, you can then sell your nice seasoned firewood to someone to buy a few more tons of pellets
OK. So how do I calculate my heat loss now? Is there a formula I can use? I know what my R factor for the roof should be. The walls are a little tricky as they are whole logs. I guess I could estimate using what I think the avg. diameter is. The gable ends are something I should be OK w/ since they are just lumber and glass. Triple pane windows. Do I just give it to an architect and let them figure it out? I concur, I need to cut, split and stack ASAP.
Coal Reaper
Minister of Fire
Nothing to add here. These guys got yah pretty much covered. But if you wanted a bit more reading youcan check out the thread in my sig. I have been going through about 4000#s per month, about six cord since the first of october. This included a decent bit of silver maple and pine. They only other comment i have is if i didnt get wood for free then i would just go with a pellet boiler and buy pellets.
Floydian
Feeling the Heat
Good morning, gimmegas.
A comprehensive heat load calculation is the foundation for properly designing any quality heating system. In particular you want a room by room heat loss calc to show you how many btu's you need in different rooms. This can vary quite a bit. These numbers are crucial as they will determine what type of radiant floor system you will need to deliver the required btus-this can be tricky and radiant floors max out at about 35 Btu/sq ft. The calculation will also determine things like supply temps and flow rates. You really don't want to guess with any of this.
Once you have the room by room calc, you can add them all up for boiler and storage sizing.
As far as the heat load calc itself, the real work is in adding up all of your exterior areas(ext. walls, ceilings, doors, windows,etc.) and most important, assigning the correct R values (or U factors) to these areas. From there it is simply using this formula:
Area / Rvalue X
T 
) = heat load in Btu/hr )
Or Area X Ufactor X T )= Btu/hr
I don't know what you design day temp is but IF it is -10 than your T would be 80, assuming 70 inside temp.
I am not knocking on your decision to go with log walls but brace yourself for a LOT of heat loss through your walls. Figure R 1 per inch, though spruce might be a tiny bit higher. Your triple pane windows are probably close to the same R value as your walls.
Then once you have your design heat load you can use the heating degree day method for estimating your annual heat load.
I agree with Clarkbug, don't buy anything until you have some reasonable numbers to work with.
If I had a high heat load and I had to buy cord, I would definitely be leaning towards a pellet boiler.
Good luck and let us know what you come up with after you've crunched some numbers,
Noah
A comprehensive heat load calculation is the foundation for properly designing any quality heating system. In particular you want a room by room heat loss calc to show you how many btu's you need in different rooms. This can vary quite a bit. These numbers are crucial as they will determine what type of radiant floor system you will need to deliver the required btus-this can be tricky and radiant floors max out at about 35 Btu/sq ft. The calculation will also determine things like supply temps and flow rates. You really don't want to guess with any of this.
Once you have the room by room calc, you can add them all up for boiler and storage sizing.
As far as the heat load calc itself, the real work is in adding up all of your exterior areas(ext. walls, ceilings, doors, windows,etc.) and most important, assigning the correct R values (or U factors) to these areas. From there it is simply using this formula:
Area / Rvalue X
T ) = heat load in Btu/hr )Or Area X Ufactor X
T )= Btu/hrI don't know what you design day temp is but IF it is -10
than your T would be 80, assuming 70 inside temp.I am not knocking on your decision to go with log walls but brace yourself for a LOT of heat loss through your walls. Figure R 1 per inch, though spruce might be a tiny bit higher. Your triple pane windows are probably close to the same R value as your walls.
Then once you have your design heat load you can use the heating degree day method for estimating your annual heat load.
I agree with Clarkbug, don't buy anything until you have some reasonable numbers to work with.
If I had a high heat load and I had to buy cord, I would definitely be leaning towards a pellet boiler.
Good luck and let us know what you come up with after you've crunched some numbers,
Noah
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flyingcow
Minister of Fire
Floydian
Feeling the Heat
This is true. Achieving an airtight log wall is a challenge to begin with. Even if the wall is reasonably airtight from the get go, there is a good chance it won't be after a few years.
This all ties in with a BIG variable I forgot to mention when it comes to the heat load calc. Air infiltration/exfiltration rates can add a lot to a heat load calc and unless you have a blower door test done you will have to guess at this part of the calculation. And as mentioned this could change a lot over the years.
Here is a decent online heat loss calculator that you can play with: http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm
Noah
Coal Reaper
Minister of Fire
Clarkbug
Minister of Fire
Depends on your architect... But Im gonna say to use the info that Noah gave you instead. At least that gets you in the right ballpark.
Thanks for the help w/ the formula, Noah. I will be using it for at least the rest of the evening, and maybe tomorrow too and the day after. I'll let you know what I come up w/. I know the logs will be a challenge, esp. as they dry. They are Scandinavian full scribe so I won't be chinking. They are red spruce so at R1.16/inch- I figure they are about 12' in diameter on avg. so that should be about R14 for the walls. I'm on it. Great info. I'm on it.Good morning, gimmegas.
A comprehensive heat load calculation is the foundation for properly designing any quality heating system. In particular you want a room by room heat loss calc to show you how many btu's you need in different rooms. This can vary quite a bit. These numbers are crucial as they will determine what type of radiant floor system you will need to deliver the required btus-this can be tricky and radiant floors max out at about 35 Btu/sq ft. The calculation will also determine things like supply temps and flow rates. You really don't want to guess with any of this.
Once you have the room by room calc, you can add them all up for boiler and storage sizing.
As far as the heat load calc itself, the real work is in adding up all of your exterior areas(ext. walls, ceilings, doors, windows,etc.) and most important, assigning the correct R values (or U factors) to these areas. From there it is simply using this formula:
Area / Rvalue X
Or Area X Ufactor X
I don't know what you design day temp is but IF it is -10
I am not knocking on your decision to go with log walls but brace yourself for a LOT of heat loss through your walls. Figure R 1 per inch, though spruce might be a tiny bit higher. Your triple pane windows are probably close to the same R value as your walls.
Then once you have your design heat load you can use the heating degree day method for estimating your annual heat load.
I agree with Clarkbug, don't buy anything until you have some reasonable numbers to work with.
If I had a high heat load and I had to buy cord, I would definitely be leaning towards a pellet boiler.
Good luck and let us know what you come up with after you've crunched some numbers,
Noah
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