Problems with new Jotul C550

A2Woodburner said:

Been firing now for just about an hour and 15 or so. Got up temp up to where it just touched 700...FINALLY! No blower turning on, though it did start up between 550-600. Now turned the fan on, and have closed the air intake flow to 1/4-1/3. Insert is stacked with 4 year old maple that is dry as death valley and weighs almost like balsa, but not that light. Got some semblance of flame thrower/gates of hell secondary, but only through maybe a third of the tubes. Now that it shut down a bit and blower on, temp is dropping like a stone and in just the 5-10 mins is down to 500. I can feel and smell that it is hot though, like really hot, as it should be. But again, no secondary burn as you both describe. We'll see how this lasts. I have to take off for a few hours around 6:30.

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A2W, I have to believe if the glass is clean that the wood is fine. I can get secondaries, but I have to induce them and they aren't self-sustaining, but they do seem to be the best theoretical burn, I suppose. I have never stuffed my 550 to the gills. And it is frustrating when 2-3 splits in the old beater downstairs gets the job done. I don't blame you one bit in your frustration. You are showing the patience of Job and real diligence towards solutions. I'm watching your progress closely. Here's a vid of some secondaries. At 3:20 there's a quick glimpse of the mini-"flame-thrower" out the tubes.



I have gotten some dramatic ones, and my favorite is called "The Dryer". Flame detaches from the logs and rolls horizontally at the window.

Thank you for posting that vid, Soundchasm. It looks much the same as mine and the fires I have going in this unit. Since yesterday, I have restocked from coals, 2 fires. It is taking just over an hour to go from 250 to 600-650. I can't really hang around to micromanage it to 700 or +. The damper is being played around a bit and is fine. Air intake is good. Everything is good. It is really very very hot. I can feel how blazing hot the insert is just getting near it. Even the Galileo on top of the hearth indicates it is really hot. Then I turn the blower on and it quickly drops to 400-500. House begins to heat back up once again, but here is the rub...Once house temp is up to 68, that is where it stays. It should be way into the 70s with this kind of output, etc. It was 63-64 when I started on it this morning. The stove temp is remaining steady at around 500. Before leaving for work, it may have been even pushing higher. House still a steady 68. It is going to be a long day/evening, so the nice bed of coals will more than likely be gone for the most part when I get home, but at least the insert is functioning now up to capacity. Still, this thing has been over promised and under delivered.

Thanks for your support. I will try to post up pics and movies soon so you all can see.

Sounds like you might just be "running out of gas". You have to pack as much of that firebox with fuel as you can. If you are always criss crossing then you are definitely not filling the firebox. There is a lot of air space when you load like that. You said you are burning 24/7, but do you need a match to get going again? If so, you are not really burning 24/7. Would love to see a picture of your "packed" stove.

rkofler said:

Sounds like you might just be "running out of gas". You have to pack as much of that firebox with fuel as you can. If you are always criss crossing then you are definitely not filling the firebox. There is a lot of air space when you load like that. You said you are burning 24/7, but do you need a match to get going again? If so, you are not really burning 24/7. Would love to see a picture of your "packed" stove.

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I haven't been criss crossing as much as may be eluded too. Maybe I haven't been clear enough about that. Most of my splits are too long to criss cross. It is only when I can. I was encouraged last year to stack as best as I can the firebox that way. When stocked full, it is probably 95+% of the time length wise, so there is really one big mass, as you advise.

I don't usually need a match to re light the fire. It all depends on how soon I can get home after work. Most of the time, there are coals left over, enough to put a couple pieces of fat wood down, with larger kindling on top of that in order to get things roaring, and pretty soon afterwards, move up in size from there. Once in a while, I need to get a match on it, but that is only when I have been gone from my house for 10-12 hours or more, and can't get there to monitor it and manage it back up again. I am 52, work full time and then some, and have no one else in my house.

I will do my best to take a pic/movie this evening after the day is done, and post it so you can see.

A2W, when my basement stove hits 500, it's t-shirt time. 75+ degrees and I crack a basement vent window to feed it. When the 550 hits 500, it's warm nearby the stove. My ceiling is a comfortable 80 degrees, but the room tops out around 68 as you describe. You've been over this top to bottom several times. I was hoping for a radical improvement since you've done everything I've read about and plan to do. In the big 550 thread, there were many who couldn't get the heat they needed out of the unit. Then there were the stories about insulation/blockoff plates saving the day.

In the mitigation department, I've been doing some calculations that indicate the unit will pay for itself in year four. If you are comfortable with it, a Sooteater will save you another $150-200 a year and also clue you into how you're burning and wood quality when you evaluate the amount and type of creosote. So if we have to start over, the only thing we've lost is 3-4 years. That's pretty bad, but not fatal.

I have taken comfort in the fact that you said your wood consumption was less than with your old insert (or a previous one). Thought you had a sentence about the auto-fan... There's a thing called a snap-disc behind the front grate that can be pushed up closer to sense heat quicker. I've gone with a timer to turn mine off 1, 2, 4 hours after I go to bed. The snap disc was very sensitive to the amount of ash in the stove.

Yeah. I should be achieving those levels of heat, as promised by salesman and Jotul rep, but it just isn't happening. Those heat numbers are what I used to have with my old unit. The auto fan is coming on now just fine, when it for some reason yesterday did not. Will have to go over that with the rep next week to have it checked out.

Thanks for the other ideas. I'll look into it.

I've read quite a bit of this thread and it is really hard to parse out what is going on. A2, the one thing that I see again and again is your reporting that the insert is not performing based on the temperature that your are reading in the house. The other data point that you refer to is the reading of magnetic thermostat. I think that you should really stay focused on the insert itself and the next thing to do is to order an infrared temperature gun with a laser pointer. You can get a nice one on Amazon for about $25. Then you can start getting some real data about how the unit is performing.

Also, I wouldn't pay any attention to when the fan comes on in auto. It senses on the bottom of the stove and is heavily influenced by the amount of ash in the stove. I routinely start my fan manually when I can SEE that the fire is cranking hot. Then I switch it to auto when I go to bed so it doesn't run all night.

AK13 said:

I've read quite a bit of this thread and it is really hard to parse out what is going on. A2, the one thing that I see again and again is your reporting that the insert is not performing based on the temperature that your are reading in the house. The other data point that you refer to is the reading of magnetic thermostat. I think that you should really stay focused on the insert itself and the next thing to do is to order an infrared temperature gun with a laser pointer. You can get a nice one on Amazon for about $25. Then you can start getting some real data about how the unit is performing.

Also, I wouldn't pay any attention to when the fan comes on in auto. It senses on the bottom of the stove and is heavily influenced by the amount of ash in the stove. I routinely start my fan manually when I can SEE that the fire is cranking hot. Then I switch it to auto when I go to bed so it doesn't run all night.

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Thank you for these tips. I'll carry through with them. IMO, it shouldn't have to be this complicated and one shouldn't have to go through all these hoops to have this, or any other wood insert or stove operate as it should. This much micromanaging and minute fussing that I read about from all of you, as well as what I am and have been going through is just not conducive to a good "user friendly" product, however that phrase is to be interpreted.

Attached is a pic of burn after repacking this morn at 4 AM. Also see vid.

Pic of chimney and roof line.

That looks like a lot of chimney

Bigg_Redd said:

That looks like a lot of chimney

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The masonry is actually only 11', and the added stack that looks so industrial is 4-5'.

A2Woodburner said:

Pic of chimney and roof line.

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For the love of Mike, how is this thing just not working? You've handled the outside masonry part with the insulation. Personally, I think the added stack looks very good. Maybe the problem was getting it in black. Wait, mine's brown...

Bigg_Redd said:

That looks like a lot of chimney

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B_R, make sure to post what your folks decide on as a replacement. Thanks.

Soundchasm said:

For the love of Mike, how is this thing just not working? You've handled the outside masonry part with the insulation. Personally, I think the added stack looks very good. Maybe the problem was getting it in black. Wait, mine's brown...

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Right! It's firing well, etc. and all that everyone has said blah, blah, blah...it just doesn't heat my house past 68. For instance, this morning it was 64, then down to 61 in about an hour and half when I re stoked it at 4, then when I left for work after fussing and micromanaging it, temp was either 65-66. That was 3 hours later! and I was mostly awake the whole time making sure stove temp was up near 700 and all that before turning the blower back on around 6 AM. Stove temp crashed back down to the 400, then crept back up by the time I left to around 500.

I havent read every page so I might have missed this......

If the stove is getting up to temp and getting secondary burns as it should maybe the problem is in the layout of stove in the house?

where are you taking these temp readings?
is the room warm where the stove is located?
do you have insulation?
Crawlspace under house?
A window open? (just kidding)

I agree with 12Pack. All good questions. A cold house doesn't mean a non-peforming stove. The stove looks like its working. I know that you said you put a bunch of money into energy improvements, but I think its time to question your expectations of the stove vs. what it takes to heat your house. Do you know the design heating load for you house?

It looks like your stove is at one end of the house. My 550 heats the room its in pretty well, but it doesn't magically send heat down to the other end of our house....I had to put in a second wood stove for that It does put the heat upstairs pretty well since it is at the bottom of the stairs and sends out very hot air that goes straight up to the ceiling and up the stairs.

12pack said:

I havent read every page so I might have missed this......

If the stove is getting up to temp and getting secondary burns as it should maybe the problem is in the layout of stove in the house?

where are you taking these temp readings? The house temp reading is on the house thermostat 24' away from the insert (open space).
is the room warm where the stove is located? The room the insert is in is warm.
do you have insulation? Yes. Have mega insulation.
Crawlspace under house? There is a sub floor underneath the room where the insert is (was an addition long ago).
A window open? Hilarious! (just kidding)

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Answers are in bold after the question.

AK13 said:

I agree with 12Pack. All good questions. A cold house doesn't mean a non-peforming stove. The stove looks like its working. I know that you said you put a bunch of money into energy improvements, but I think its time to question your expectations of the stove vs. what it takes to heat your house. Do you know the design heating load for you house?

It looks like your stove is at one end of the house. My 550 heats the room its in pretty well, but it doesn't magically send heat down to the other end of our house....I had to put in a second wood stove for that It does put the heat upstairs pretty well since it is at the bottom of the stairs and sends out very hot air that goes straight up to the ceiling and up the stairs.

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My expectations of this insert come from the sales guy, dealer, Jotul rep, and even Jotul North America. The old insert I had was more than adequate, though again, I KNOW you can't compare those old units to these high efficiency/high EPA standard inserts and stoves. I don't know the design of the heating load of my house. As stated many times, my old insert had no problem getting a 58 degree house up to 72-78 degrees (average) in maybe four hours max. There were zones in the house that didn't get hit those comfortable temps being on the other side of the house, but they still weren't below 66-68, and when the old insert was really cranking, I even had to practically crack a window.

Since day one, this thing has maintained a house temp of 62-68, and rarely gets to 70 or higher. So my expectations are inline for what this insert is designed for and what was sold as. In fact, this unit is built to heat a house 1000-1500 SqFt bigger than mine. And my small ranch has an open concept floor plan. There are very few walls, energy efficient windows (big ones facing W-SW), hardwood floors, a couple of ceiling fans, no cathedral type ceiling (though I wish), and finished basement.

Yes it heats the small room it is in well, though not as hot as one would think/expect. Further out though, it is marginal from what I was led to believe it would do and was more than capable of doing.

Soundchasm said:

B_R, make sure to post what your folks decide on as a replacement. Thanks.

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Will do. I'm pushing hard for PE Summit, but my old man thinks he wants a cat. We'll see I guess.

BrotherBart said:

I bet he is like my Dad was. He always said he would let me pick something out for him and then he would take the one next to it.

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This is exactly how he ended up with the 550 in the first place. I had done a lot of legwork when I purchased my stove and I thought a big PE would cut their wood consumption (less for me to cut every year) and heat their house better. Instead he came home with the Jotul. It works great but it just dosn't have the horse power to heat their big, draft old house.

When the temps are dropping off quickly once the fan comes on, is the air shut down? No stove setup is the same, so you can burn it exactly like someone else and get different results. Keep the air open and see what you get.

Also, you may need to reload earlier than others suggest, I know I do with my c450. Don't worry about getting secondaries, just worry about getting heat. Once you get heat, secondaries will come with refining when you decrease the air and by how much.

You are getting better temps as I read through the thread. Give it more air, reload on top of more coals, and wait on the fan until it's truly hot.

You are getting there. Don't stop now.

oconnor said:

When the temps are dropping off quickly once the fan comes on, is the air shut down? No stove setup is the same, so you can burn it exactly like someone else and get different results. Keep the air open and see what you get.

Also, you may need to reload earlier than others suggest, I know I do with my c450. Don't worry about getting secondaries, just worry about getting heat. Once you get heat, secondaries will come with refining when you decrease the air and by how much.

You are getting better temps as I read through the thread. Give it more air, reload on top of more coals, and wait on the fan until it's truly hot.

You are getting there. Don't stop now.

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The air is shut down for the most part. It is less than half to 1/4 open, depending on the wood being burned, etc. Right now, I have some maple that is so dry, it torches off like a furnace and the insert gets up to somewhere between 600-700 in about an hour with slowly shutting down the air intake incrementally. If I keep the air open, I lose all the heat up the stack.

I have been practicing all of your suggestions stated, and the bottom line is still this thing does little to heat my house adequately. If it weren't for the outside temps hovering in the mid 40s to 50s right now, my house would not be above 70 as it is indicating now. I am thinking it has to do with the fan and the overall power it may be lacking. Everything else seems to be working just stellar.

If they initially told me that it would heat my house to 68 and that is it, then I would have been better able to deal with this, and maybe not bought it in the first place. But it has been said time and time again that this should be blasting me out of my house and even in the dead of winter, I should be to the point of opening a window or two.

This is a product that has been over promised and under delivered. Period.

You are missing one piece - you are shutting it down too early. Regulate the air based on the thermometer. If the thermo drops, open the air back up. You need to heat the entire flue to get the draft increased to the point where the stove will sustain a burn with the air at 1/4.

Open the air up. Stop worrying about "the heat going up the stack". You should be able to get 700 degrees in 15 minutes if you cut it small enough and arrange it well.

With your set up, you need the flue to get hot and stay hot. That upper extension on your flue will cool really quickly - it's just liner sections right? If it's cold, it isn't going to help with the draft, and with the minimal heights that you have, you aren't going to get a good burn until the second or third load of fuel. Yes, you have enough chimney, but it isn't going to run like one connected to 30 feet of flue.

So, burn it quick and hot, air open. Forget about losing heat up the stack. You need air to make heat, and given your flue, you won't have the velocities inside the flue to maintain the fire with the air shut down.

Don't even be afraid of overfiring it - it sounds like you can shut it down quickly.

Hope this is helpful - I hate that you were sold something that isn't suited to your install. Good luck.