rich2500
Minister of Fire
I"m liking the advancements some stoves offer with the controllers,but mechanically I like it simple as possible.
Innovation in Pellet Stoves
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Tonyray
Minister of Fire
yes... mechanically simple means less to go wrong...
Imagine Electronic repairs on new cars today after waranty runs out..
A computer on wheels will be an expensive technical fix..
no more screw driver and socket wrench..
don't get me wrong.. I like innovation as much as the next person but,
I don't see where just because it can be an App, it needs to be..
I don't think it's cost effective to incorporate wireless monitoring apps in a stove
due to the lower costs of Pellet stoves as compared to 20k and up for Automobiles..
can always tack on a Grand or so on a car but would be much more noticable on a stove that generally is in the 3k range more or less..
"buy this Harman model which u can see from your phone how many pellets you have or raise the temperature and feed rate before you come home but this model will cost 2,000.00 more than a standard Harman...don't think they will have customers falling all over themselves to pay extra.
Like lot of Phone apps, the're really kewl but necessary? most are not..
Pellet stove is a device to keep us warm.. doesn't need to turn into a home video game just because it can.
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rich2500
Minister of Fire
Yeah I sure don't have a need to control my stove from my phone,heck I have never even used the remote for my stove,but my stove controller does have some nice features like timer,weekly programming which for the way I use my stove(supplement to oil burner) are nice features.If I used my pellet stove as my only soutce of heat, only shutting it down for cleaning then those features would be useless to me.
Enigma869
Feeling the Heat
My Harman dealer stated this was happening and that the stove would be able to be controlled by a smart phone app. I will say the only really frustrating thing to me about my pellet stove are the manual dials. It's the equivalent of watching a 12 inch black and white TV in 2014! Having a digital thermostat built into the stove is 20+ year old technology, so I'm not sure why it doesn't exist in pellet stoves. It certainly shouldn't be that difficult. I would be very happy to select a temperature and not guess at what I think the dial is reading! I also wouldn't mind a burn pot that somehow removed the ash from the lip of the burn pot, so the intense flame isn't directly on the glass in torch mode, causing the glass to become scarred, over time.
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RKS130
Minister of Fire
A Harman rep was at our local dealer earlier this year. He told me that next year they will have a new control board with a touch screen. I have no idea if it will have any substantive improvement, but the visuals, at least, will be new.
Enigma869
Feeling the Heat
It would be nice if those touch screens could be installed into the older stoves (for a price, of course), but that probably won't happen.
coobie
Member
Mt Bob
Minister of Fire
On off switch,one knob,no draft control,does not leave me much to do.But for you guys that like to tinker,I'll leave some links.-----http://www.fumis.si/en/about-fumis/fumis-combustion-controllers/fumis-alpha http://www.newpellet.com/web/cataloghi/electronic controllers for pellet stoves.pdf
RKBAGUY
Feeling the Heat
I'm inclined to agree with rona.
At a certain point in a product life cycle that the innovation ends because the form has caught up to, and in our case, surpassed the function. Think about the bicycle - pretty much unchanged for a hundred years. Yes, there have been incremental advances such as multi-speed gearing, brake lever shifters and quick-release pedals, even in materials like composites, but the basic form of the thing has stayed the same for a good long time now. I suspect that'll be the same of pellet stoves because the technology and advances we will see are going to be incremental - mostly aesthetic or convenience improvements - since the core functionality of keeping pellets burning and putting heat into a room have been achieved.
Mt Bob
Minister of Fire
Well untill I can haul 5 tons at a time (I'm building a tardis,not going well) I'll keep old faithful.But am considering a shoulder stove(smaller) and would want ignition by timer and t stat.
I like simplicity as much as the next person. However, if one reads these message boards, you'd know that many here obsess about pellets that burn hot, or pellets that burn well in their stove, or whether their flame is lazy, or whether it's time to clean. With a lambda sensor, half of the threads on this board wouldn't need to exist.
Mt Bob
Minister of Fire
Yep agree,but the problem(big one)is not like a boiler that is on or off,the programming/testing setup will be expensive,as installs,operating conditions pose a lot of problems.But heck,you are running one of the best setups on the market!
tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
I definitely think having an app to control your stove is just 'fluff' for those with more money than sense. HOWEVER, we may have stoves that can burn pellets and put heat in the room but the truth is that they do it very ineffiiciently. The manufacturers SAY that they get 80% but it is a 'grandfathered' number that is probably grossly overstated. Who wouldn't want a pellet stove that TRULY gets 90-95% efficiency like the best other heating furnaces? That will take some 21st century ingenuity in the area of heat transfer and better control of the burning process, both of which have been talked about above.
''Don't fix it if it ain't broke'' just doesn't cut it anymore. Also, after seeing over the past few years probably a thousand pleas on here, many from people who probably shouldn't have bought stoves in the first place, having one that TELLS you what's wrong would be a blessing to them and the repair man.
TonyVideo
Feeling the Heat
Software intellectual property is big as companies find ways to protect what they have developed. No open API on this. Protecting big business ventures is number 1 when companies start buying up properties. We need a startup that allow 1 stove to be put together as a kit. You want simple plug it in set one setting and go. You add capability to match your needs. You want a thermostat ckeck. You want a multi fuel pot check. Variable distribution fan check. Water jacket check. Choice of outside looks ckeck. Slide in universal control panel of choice check. Universal parts no matter options check. Efficiency or max btu check. One model with the options. Assembled in 15 minutes. Think outside the box. Inexpensive for simple but let's you grow with your needs and of good universal design. Can be broken down completely in 30 minutes for deep cleaning at years end. The only thing left after tear down is the backplane with oak and exhaust. Lift the hood so to speak and clean or break it down. A new disruptive product that will allow your average non technical person use it to meet their needs. It has to be an appliance that can be useful and understandable by the masses to gain universal acceptance and market share for true profitability. All of us here on this forum understand them but look at the number who are curious but haven't made the leap. It is a complex space heater as it sits to those outside this group. I think there is plenty of room for growth in pellet stove design and ingenuity.
tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
That sounds like a great plan EXCEPT these stoves require the GOVERNMENT TO SCREW THINGS UP FOR US ALL. They need to be UL approved, EPA approved, NFPA approved, local fire marshal approved, insurance company approved, and heaven knows what other agencies get their fingers into the soup! If we add piecemeal additional parts, it alters the stove and new approvals would probably be needed. It's not like building a computer from scratch although I sincerely wish it were!
The software COULD be made public domain. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people out there who have developed public domain products like Open Office who would take on such challenges. CUBLOC has a great line of programmable controllers and peripherals that offer their programming software for free as well as support. Contributors can submit their creations for all to use. There are many such sites. Stove manufacturers make their software proprietary because that particular coding is what was approved by all the agencies at great expense. They don't want you changing it and potentially compromising the safety or longevity of their product.
I myself have written code in CUBLOC to mimic the functions of my Quads just for a challenge but have not installed it. Not to say that I wouldn't in the future. It would also give me more information about my stove's functions for easier troubleshooting and adjustment. It can be done and done at a very reasonable cost.
RKBAGUY
Feeling the Heat
I don't disagree on any particular point, but you do more or less echo my view that the industry is pretty well beyond the basics and incremental embellishments are what we can expect. The increase in efficiency would be an analogue to using carbon composites in a bike - it enhances the basic design, but doesn't change its fundamental function. However we ought to be mindful that one shouldn't necessarily need an engineering degree to own a pellet stove and that experience is a great teacher. Heck, what in God's name would we do with all our spare time if we weren't here answering those thousand pleas from those who don't know what they're doing. As someone who didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground this past October, this forum has been a wellspring of information and the learning of it all is part of the fun. At least where I'm concerned.
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RKBAGUY
Feeling the Heat
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
I bought 2 1991 model Whitfields a few years ago, and see absolutely zero reason to look at anything new.
Forward thinking ????
Additions of more electronics, if that's the deal is not the answer.
You can change the shape slightly, but most companies have good designs that fit most applications.
The more you over think the plumbing, the easier it is to plug the drain.
KEEP IT SIMPLE
The drive to add more and more computers to everything has only resulted in higher failure rates and a once simple and trouble free device has become a useless POS, that requires far more service and WILL FAIL
Forward thinking ????
Additions of more electronics, if that's the deal is not the answer.
You can change the shape slightly, but most companies have good designs that fit most applications.
The more you over think the plumbing, the easier it is to plug the drain.
KEEP IT SIMPLE
The drive to add more and more computers to everything has only resulted in higher failure rates and a once simple and trouble free device has become a useless POS, that requires far more service and WILL FAIL
rona
Minister of Fire
The simple stove allows the owner to repair it with common off the shelf parts. Thus a service tech isn't needed. Along comes the computer board that has different software available. Ok I can install, the software via a computer but don't have a clue if something is wrong with the board.
Almost every stove made now has some kind of control board. Making it more user friendly certainly can't be a bad thing. There is a guy on Ebay making a living repairing almost every brand of board sold so exactly how reliable are they now? Innovation in a pellet stove is not just a control system. More efficient and most important less maintenance is what I look for. Government regulation! As long as they allow some P.O.S to hang out a window with a fiire burning inside I don't think you need to worry about the government messing things up. Not everyone is sitting at home all day with time to scrape a burnpot and empty an ashpan. Judging by the number of pleas on the forum for immediate assistance not everyone is as capable of working on a stove as others. A cleaner burning stove with less mess to clean won't make anyone unhappy.
Exactly, we're already past the point of no return now that every stove has a board inside, so why not make the boards a little smarter, to take some of the guesswork out of running the stove properly.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
The popular stoves did use common mosfet timers to run the feed motors.
There were two controls, a feed rate and a fan speed control.
The run function had a couple snap discs to either satisfy the presence of heat and keep the stove running after the initial start up. A one shot timer to allow start up with a cold stove, and a second timer to allow fuel feed (Heat settings)
These units were pretty much indestructible.
The reliability was excellent, and the failure rate was very very low.
The manufactures decided to place all the electrical; functions on a single control board, add fancy functions, auto lighting and diagnostic codes, and have these boards made in China for pennies.
Does the owner get a replacement part for pennies, NO, absolutely not ! ! ! ! ! !
A pellet stove is a heating device, once computers are added, it becomes a irritant, and from their it goes down hill.
Part of the problem is that some people should not be allowed to operate anything mechanical, let alone something that has fire involved with it.
The stove builders have tried to engineer the new stoves to the point that they are idiot proof.
Not gonna happen.
The old stoves worked well, very very well, and were easy to use and fix.
Once it becomes innovative, it becomes complex, then the cost goes up.
Do the new innovative designs make the house warmer quicker, NO.
Adding a computer to everything is not where we need to go.
I recently looked at a new Washer Dryer set, and it is all computer operated, plus you can get an APP for your smart phone to run it from.
The machine can be started while you are away and have things all done when you get home.
The machine will send you a text mssg when its done or if there is a problem.
I joked with the salesman that " You start the machine from the office 50 miles away and a while later you get a text " ( Water valve failure, house flooding, or balance fault, washer tearing laundry room apart)
Pellet Stove failure code, "Computer fault code 007 House on fire"
Old school is better here.
There were two controls, a feed rate and a fan speed control.
The run function had a couple snap discs to either satisfy the presence of heat and keep the stove running after the initial start up. A one shot timer to allow start up with a cold stove, and a second timer to allow fuel feed (Heat settings)
These units were pretty much indestructible.
The reliability was excellent, and the failure rate was very very low.
The manufactures decided to place all the electrical; functions on a single control board, add fancy functions, auto lighting and diagnostic codes, and have these boards made in China for pennies.
Does the owner get a replacement part for pennies, NO, absolutely not ! ! ! ! ! !
A pellet stove is a heating device, once computers are added, it becomes a irritant, and from their it goes down hill.
Part of the problem is that some people should not be allowed to operate anything mechanical, let alone something that has fire involved with it.
The stove builders have tried to engineer the new stoves to the point that they are idiot proof.
Not gonna happen.
The old stoves worked well, very very well, and were easy to use and fix.
Once it becomes innovative, it becomes complex, then the cost goes up.
Do the new innovative designs make the house warmer quicker, NO.
Adding a computer to everything is not where we need to go.
I recently looked at a new Washer Dryer set, and it is all computer operated, plus you can get an APP for your smart phone to run it from.
The machine can be started while you are away and have things all done when you get home.
The machine will send you a text mssg when its done or if there is a problem.
I joked with the salesman that " You start the machine from the office 50 miles away and a while later you get a text " ( Water valve failure, house flooding, or balance fault, washer tearing laundry room apart)
Pellet Stove failure code, "Computer fault code 007 House on fire"
Old school is better here.
tjnamtiw
Minister of Fire
We're all hung up on just the control board, for heavens sake. The most important point of my first post was EFFICIENCY! That's where we need the most improvement. Yes, some of that can come from controlling the combustion better but the biggest boost in efficiency is in the heat exchanger area. A stove with a few round smooth tubes just plain SUCKS as far as efficiency goes. Sure, if you're paying a penny a pound for your fuel (Snowy ), it's no big thing but for those who just paid $7 a bag for pellets, it means a lot. You may have just bought the latest greatest stove or you may have a 20 year old stove. Most likely they have the same lousy heat exchanger system. I believe the AE has a cast arrangement with fins to present more surface area (maybe I'm thinking of another one) but most have 50 year old technology.
A combination of a better, more consistent metering of pellets and air to achieve a constant burn along with a system to extract every possible btu would be the next generation of stoves. I could care less how they wrap them to look pretty as long as they give 90-95 % efficiency.
Of course, if you live in an area where you can get coal, like Maryland up into New England, you could get one of these, which was just posted on the nepacrossroads.com. This baby when both stokers are lit will put out 180,000 btu's! With fuel that costs less than $200 a ton if you pick it up, which most here do and it has around 15,000 btu's per pound.
Sorry, just couldn't resist! 
), it's no big thing but for those who just paid $7 a bag for pellets, it means a lot. You may have just bought the latest greatest stove or you may have a 20 year old stove. Most likely they have the same lousy heat exchanger system. I believe the AE has a cast arrangement with fins to present more surface area (maybe I'm thinking of another one) but most have 50 year old technology. A combination of a better, more consistent metering of pellets and air to achieve a constant burn along with a system to extract every possible btu would be the next generation of stoves. I could care less how they wrap them to look pretty as long as they give 90-95 % efficiency.
Of course, if you live in an area where you can get coal, like Maryland up into New England, you could get one of these, which was just posted on the nepacrossroads.com. This baby when both stokers are lit will put out 180,000 btu's! With fuel that costs less than $200 a ton if you pick it up, which most here do and it has around 15,000 btu's per pound.
Sorry, just couldn't resist!
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All great points, but you know, can we at least have a choice? Those who like simple, can keep buying what they like, and those who want a smarter stove can get one.
Tonyray
Minister of Fire
Harmans have the accordian style heat exchanger so there are NO WASTED SPACES in between..We're all hung up on just the control board, for heavens sake. The most important point of my first post was EFFICIENCY! That's where we need the most improvement. Yes, some of that can come from controlling the combustion better but the biggest boost in efficiency is in the heat exchanger area. A stove with a few round smooth tubes just plain SUCKS as far as efficiency goes. Sure, if you're paying a penny a pound for your fuel (Snowy
A combination of a better, more consistent metering of pellets and air to achieve a constant burn along with a system to extract every possible btu would be the next generation of stoves. I could care less how they wrap them to look pretty as long as they give 90-95 % efficiency.
Of course, if you live in an area where you can get coal, like Maryland up into New England, you could get one of these, which was just posted on the nepacrossroads.com. This baby when both stokers are lit will put out 180,000 btu's! With fuel that costs less than $200 a ton if you pick it up, which most here do and it has around 15,000 btu's per pound.
View attachment 130835
Sorry, just couldn't resist!
Every bit of the exchanger retains heat from 1 side of the stove to the other.
that was Smart Mechanical Innovation with no APP.
the best thing they could do for a stove is save people money...
If it's at all possible, More efficient enough that your pellet supply would last twice as long as it does now.
Anything else would be just more electronic fluff for the Digital Generation to play with..
Just cause they make an app doesn't mean it's needed...
just think of all the thousands of Phone apps everyone tries when they get a smart phone and end up maybe using or keeping a dozen or so.
The above Washer/Dyer App Snowy Rivers pointed out above is text book example of innovation gotcha's that could flood your house [just so's you can show people
how you can turn on your washer from 3 states over....ya know, 1st on your block to have it mentality etc.... No Offense pellet owners.. just my view of it all.
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