Rototilling/New Garden

So I have a tractor in my avatar. That's because I am more of a farmer than I am a city type rooftop gardener. When real farmers want to get a job done they use the best methods and tools. Best to them means most efficient, safe, legal. One that works on a large scale. No, you don't usually see farmers using guano or hand picking weeds. That's too slow and ineffective.

Appreciate the broad spectrum of advice. From the guy hand "plowing" by flopping the hand dug sod into a hand dug furrow, to the guy that hooks up a 3-8 gang plow and does this by the acre.

As I understand it, water is toxic as well. Drink enough and you die. Water toxicity?

I have been burned by the till and plant process. Seems all that does is expose the weed seerds to perfect growing conditions while spreading the live vegetation even farther. It almost makes it worse. Then you plant your seed and by the time the seed sprouts up, the weeds have a huge head start.

For crying out loud, you city folks aren't buying pre-planted seedlings are you?

Heck, I even tried burning the weeds from the garden one year with a weed burner. No dice. Roundup, I too buy the generic, is made for this and you might not like it but the food you buy has almost always seen roundup at some point.

I rototill and the worms love my garden, and the moles love the worms, and grubs, and I hate the moles.

I am trying out Straw Bale Gardening this year for a couple plants. Doesn't take much to get it going from what I have read.

http://modernfarmer.com/2013/07/straw-bale-gardening/

DevilsBrew said:

I am trying out Straw Bale Gardening this year for a couple plants. Doesn't take much to get it going from what I have read.

http://modernfarmer.com/2013/07/straw-bale-gardening/

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Someone here tried that last year and I was really impressed with the idea and their results.
I'm tempted to try it just for the fun of it.

Also you might want to check out wide row gardening. I have a book on it somewhere. It worked really well with beans and lettuce and root vegetables.

One example, I could plant one pack of lettuce seeds and never run out of lettuce by starting to cut when the leafs are big enough and just work my way across until the end, by that time the first cutting would be ready to cut again.

It is sort of like raised beds but not raised. It keeps the weeds down and less water is needed.

I would put down some clear plastic sheeting. The heat will kill the turf and start the weed seeds germinating. Then I'd make some additions (composted manure, peat, lime, deadly and delicious petrochemicals) till the top 6" and cover it again for the next round of sprouting until it was time to plant. I used to turn the soil but mixing up the microbes can be detrimental.

We do raised beds and I use grass clippings as a top mulch. It mats down better than straw/hay and we don't track the clippings into the house as much as when I used to mulch in place. I'm guessing it adds to the weed problem but by the time they take over it's mid-August and I've lost interest anyhow. I also use round up on the weeds or any plant I don't feel has a right to life.

flyingcow said:

DDT, too bad it got such a bad name. Overuse is why.

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Most places stopped using it because it stopped working. It's one of life's little wonders, but insects seem to be able to develop a resistance to poisons at the same time a patent runs out. It was already on the downswing before it was banned in the USA.

If you haven't tried it without the plastic, I think that you may be surprised. Newspaper or cardboard smothers the weeds under the compostables- less work, and- as far as my experiments have shown- better results. I am absolutely not a fan of Roundup, but I do agree that tilling is a great way to mix in/bring up long forgotten weed seeds.

I guess ignorance is bliss? Don't you ever buy any vegetables or food products that involve plants?

Highbeam said:

I guess ignorance is bliss? Don't you ever buy any vegetables or food products that involve plants?

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There's reasons for growing you own-

bholler said:

But why use chemicals in a small scale home garden when it is easy to do it otherwise.

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Because it is easier to do it with the proper amount of chemicals, obviously.

If the goal is a chemical free garden, organic you might say, then that is one thing. People often talk that talk but then complain of it being too much work to garden and just give up. How much guano can a guy shovel? to prevent using a little miracle grow? Some folks have the time and dedication to make it happen, that's great.

Can you believe that they put chlorine in drinking water?

Highbeam said:

Because it is easier to do it with the proper amount of chemicals, obviously.

If the goal is a chemical free garden, organic you might say, then that is one thing. People often talk that talk but then complain of it being too much work to garden and just give up. How much guano can a guy shovel? to prevent using a little miracle grow? Some folks have the time and dedication to make it happen, that's great.

Can you believe that they put chlorine in drinking water?

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I've done it since I've lived here. I know lots that have been organic for decades. On the 1000 sq ft scale- it's not more work at all! Less weeding, less watering with heavy leaf mulch- more produce than I can handle. I don't get the idea that it would be more work

We put in our first garden last year, it's about 20' x 50'. The previous owner left behind a large pile of black dirt, so we rented a Bobcat to move the dirt. Turned out that it was about the same price to rent a tiller attachment for the Bobcat as a walk behind tiller, so we got the Bobcat tiller too. Obviously overkill, but it made really short work of the tilling and did a great job.



We didn't put anything on the garden but water, and most everything we planted went crazy...especially the tomatoes, cucumbers, and squash. It wasn't planned, but we had so many cucumbers that my wife started canning pickles and selling them at the local farmers market.

bholler said:

Weather or not to till will depend allot on what type of soil you have. Ours has allot of clay in it and it packs very hard.

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2nd that.
Although I advocate no-till practices in general, some soils are just not suitable for growing as is. I've worked in clay so hard and tight that a large tiller merely bounced around on top of it. I had to place other materials on top to depth of about 9" and then till to get the clay broken up. The added material (compost) held the tiller down in contact with the clay.

semipro said:

I've worked in clay so hard and tight that a large tiller merely bounced around on top of it.

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In those cases, I've put on the subsoiler which is a single tooth ripper to break up the soil a bit first. Otherwise you may be better off waiting until the rains soften the clay in the fall.

Adios Pantalones said:

I've done it since I've lived here. I know lots that have been organic for decades. On the 1000 sq ft scale- it's not more work at all! Less weeding, less watering with heavy leaf mulch- more produce than I can handle. I don't get the idea that it would be more work

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You may not think it is more work but if that were true, farmers would all be organic. This type of thing scales well, if it is more work at 1000 SF it is more work at 100 SF, and it is more work at 1000 acres. Just imagine how much less work it would be and how much more production you could get with modern farming methods. Organic isn't about efficient production though is it?

1000 SF is a good sized garden. I suspect that most folks on this thread are in the 200 SF range.

Highbeam said:

You may not think it is more work but if that were true, farmers would all be organic. This type of thing scales well, if it is more work at 1000 SF it is more work at 100 SF, and it is more work at 1000 acres. Just imagine how much less work it would be and how much more production you could get with modern farming methods. Organic isn't about efficient production though is it?

1000 SF is a good sized garden. I suspect that most folks on this thread are in the 200 SF range.

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That's why I specified 1000 ft- its a decent, but not outrageous, home garden.
The same scale issue come up in crop rotation- it's not an issue for gardens this size when it comes to nutrients, as we tend to be intensive with the compost. (certain disease/pest prone crops may still like rotation- but you can't move them that far if your garden is only 25' x 40')

Highbeam said:

I read the link and as suspected it is from a crackpot environmentalist. Some people just take things too far. You know the type, birkenstocks, long matted hair, no deodorant, vegan, organic eating, and telling evryone else how bad they are.

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some folks do take things too far. but I find no need for any chemical application in my yard/garden to grow my gardens or have a healthy lawn and trees.

to the OP, as long as you mulch in your new garden, the weeds won't be an issue.

Keep in mind the original poster is talking about killing the grass on an area before tilling. This can usually done very effectively with one dose of Roundup, or if you want to avoid the more "toxic" surfactant additives you can use one of the cheaper generic forms of pure Glyphosate, like I do, which don't contain any surfactants. You spray once, the grass all dies, job done. You can continue from there with the endless job of managing other weeds naturally if you like, but if you don't get do something to get rid of all the grass before tilling it will be an ongoing battle you'll be hopelessly fighting for years.
I don't use herbicide around the garden either, not so much because I'm worried about being all natural, but because the stuff is so effective I'm afraid a small gust of wind will blow through while I'm spraying and kill something I don't want to die. I'm very careful using it around my lawn for the very same reason.
If Gyphosate was even a 10th as "toxic" as some of these reports make it out to be I should have been dead or very sick long ago. I had a leaky backpack sprayer I use to use and got soaking wet from the waist down many times.
I read one report where they fed a controlled group of rats, what would be the equivalent of 2 liters to us, of glyphosate every day for their entire lives, and continued feeding the offspring they had for several generations, and the only thing they found was the rats fed the gyphosate tended to be smaller then the control group that were not fed glyphosate. Funny thing is, if you did the same experiment with rats and Coke or Pepsi, you'd probably find the rats would be much bigger (fatter), but have more health related problems.

Also, follow the directions with these chemicals. Too many people double up. Not good.

By the time you spray, wait...you could have physically removed the turf completely, no grass/weeds issues. Removing turf is super easy and goes quickly once you get going. also a lot of guys don't follow directions, they figure if 1 dose is good, 5 must be better.

Adios Pantalones said:

Sorry, rototilling is only for those that hate their worms or have a tool they are dying to use.

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Worms rock!
If you're willing to stop the killing by tilling, add some organics, and let them have their way they will do amazing things for your garden.
I think some out there still believe the old adage that cutting a worm in half yields two worms -- not true BTW.