Unsure about local dealer, need advice on insert

Badastronaut30 · Apr 15, 2014

Not sure what to do at this point. I want to install a insert in my current 90 year old exterior wall masonry fireplace with 30 foot tall chimney. My house is 1800ish square foot, all plaster, minimal insulation besides attic. and 50% new windows. It has a clay flue and is not in the best condition. Assuming its poor condition by the junk that falls out every time I open or close the dampener. It also has a little bit of poor condition brick on top course that needs to be tuck pointed.

I was all set to install a lopi freedom. I went ahead and put money down on the stove to get a site inspection and thats when the red flags started to fly. During the process of looking and talking to sales guys at this particular store I asked several times about the insulated liner on my tall cold chimney. They all were saying its probably not needed but they will determine at the site inspection. I went along with it even though all my research on this site said I should have it. Assumed at inspection time insulation would be recommended by them. Well it wasn't. The stove guy told me I didn't need insulation in my set up and it was VERY VERY RARE for them to use insulation on any install. They want to use 5 feet of flex pipe and then run rigid the rest of the 25 ft or so. They also said they use no insulation or block off the area on top of the stove in the dampener, they said they just let some heat go up there to help warm the chimney pipe. (wtf??!!) I'm thinking either at this point the guy thinks i'm dumb or everything I have read on this page is wrong. So I went out and called another guy to the house. A certified chimney sweep from our town that also does relines. He then told me that rigid pipe in my tall of chimney was a bad Idea and no way he would ever install anything but a full length insulated flex pipe. He said if needed he would run it through a ovalizing machine to make it fit in my flue. I liked this guy but now i'm looking for advice.

I told the store about my 2nd opinion on the insulated liner and they questioned his credentials. I did not like this. I then told them how I called a bunch of other certified chimney sweeps and they all agreed insulated was superior. I pushed them to give me a quote for insulated install and they did. Went up about 300 for materials and install price is the same. I'm thinking they dont do a full flex liner install and rigid pipe can't be ovalized to make it fit with insulation on in most flues. My guess is at this point if I have company A come install stove and insulated liner they will get on roof and say sorry it wont fit. We have to go no insulation. At this point I will have paid for the job and most likely get screwed with no insulation since they will be on the roof. My other option is to have company B install a flex insulated liner and hope company A will hook it up without saying something is wrong with it and give me the run around. I dont know if i'm over thinking this hole thing but I dont know what to do. Just want it done right. Opinions?

My last scenario is the hearth pad. It's 13 inches and the lopi freedom in stock extended sticks out 7 inches. add ash pan and blower its almost out to the end of my hearth. My plan is to use a thin hearth board for a year or two until I decide to build new tile hearth. Dealer A said this is fine. Dealer B did not like that and was worried about combustibles. I would also required to have a mantel shield in extended mode . I'm now leaning to flush mount so more of the stove in on tile hearth but worried heat out-put will be to low in my un-insulated house. The room its in is 22x12 Long and narrow. My couch sits about 7.7 feet directly across from the fireplace. there are a few rooms off of the main living room but they are all slightly separated by 4ft doorways. I only want to burn say 50-40% of the time. Kinda recreationally but not so much its a full time job.
I enjoy it. my family always had a stove. I do have a super modern natural gas boiler but I hate being dependent on the man for the gas and service on the high tech boiler. Opinions?

webby3650 · Apr 15, 2014

Make sure that liner gets insulated and that the damper at least gets stuffed with insulation. A block off plate is best, but the insulation will do. There is no reason for rigid liner, I have no idea why they would want to do this? It's more expensive and much more difficult to install.
I added the flush kit to my freedom after a year or so. I could tell no difference in performance, either way its installed the blower does the work.

jeff_t · Apr 15, 2014

At this point, I wouldn't trust company A, and would looking over their shoulders through the whole process. You already know how it needs to be done, and so does the other guy.

How about the draft with 30' of insulated liner? That's really gonna suck.

Grisu · Apr 15, 2014

The way you describe your chimney, the first thing I would do is getting a chimney sweep you trust and have him do a cleaning (necessary anyway) and inspection. It is possible that just dropping a liner down there won't be enough with a deteriorating clay liner and brickwork. At that time you can ask him how much he would charge for installing liner and insert the way how it should be done and you want to have it done. If that price sounds ok, just buy the insert from the stove shop and have it delivered and then have the sweep install it. Why do you want to put up with a bad install? That insert is going to sit there for 20+ years. Another option would be to look for a different shop if you are not married to the Lopi Freedom (assuming there are not that many Lopi dealers in your place).

Extending the hearth with a stovepad is less than ideal although you don't really need an insulating board (Manual: "[Hearth] Must be non-combustible and at least .018" (.457mm) thick (26 gauge)"). Do you have a raised hearth or is it level with the floor? If it is at the floor level you would need to make sure that no ember can go between the pad and the floor maybe by tucking it under the insert. The question is also if your building inspector and/or insurance agree.

If you have enough room in the back of the fireplace I would put some Roxul in there to reduce the heat loss out of the back of the fireplace.

chimneylinerjames · Apr 15, 2014

An insulated liner is a must. I would not trust what that stove shop says either. If you insulate your liner, you know it will be safer and give you the best draft possible, less creosote build up, it has no negatives.

As far as installing the rigid liner, it is better. The smooth wall of a rigid liner will have less creosote build up and better draft. Yes it is more expensive and more difficult to install but it is superior. With that said, a flex liner will also do just fine.

begreen · Apr 15, 2014

Agreed, go with the insulated liner. I would also consider downsizing to 5.5" to compensate for the tall chimney. As for the hearth, the more the stove can extend out on the hearth the better it will convect naturally. If you have frequent and long power outages when the blower is off this could be important.

For the hearth protection, the front clearance is measured from the glass. A 12" extension may be sufficient and a thin hearth board will be fine. The manual requires ember protection only. It should be secured with a couple screws so that no gap can form between the original hearth and the board.

webby3650 · Apr 15, 2014

chimneylinerjames said:
An insulated liner is a must. I would not trust what that stove shop says either. If you insulate your liner, you know it will be safer and give you the best draft possible, less creosote build up, it has no negatives.

As far as installing the rigid liner, it is better. The smooth wall of a rigid liner will have less creosote build up and better draft. Yes it is more expensive and more difficult to install but it is superior. With that said, a flex liner will also do just fine.

Smooth wall will possibly have less build up. I clean dozens and dozens of each, and i can rarely see any noticeable difference in build up. With 30', good draft isn't gonna any issue at all.

Hogwildz · Apr 15, 2014

That dealer is a joke, but there is nothing wrong with rigid liner. I used double wall insulated and it is much easier to clean then the last 5' of flex at the bottom.
As already reinforced, get the liner insulated and install a block off plate.
Unless the shop was using insulated double wall, they are blowing smoke up your arse about never needing to insulate.
I bet they are figuring for uninsulated single wall rigid.

webby3650 · Apr 15, 2014

Hogwildz said:
That dealer is a joke, but there is nothing wrong with rigid liner. I used double wall insulated and it is much easier to clean then the last 5' of flex at the bottom.
As already reinforced, get the liner insulated and install a block off plate.
Unless the shop was using insulated double wall, they are blowing smoke up your arse about never needing to insulate.
I bet they are figuring for uninsulated single wall rigid.

Of course there is nothing wrong with rigid. I'm was just saying that its not necessary, since there is nothing wrong flex. It's lighter, cheaper, and easier to install. Easier/faster should make the labor cost go down. It could save him some money and still be a quality liner with a lifetime warranty. I've cleaned hundreds and hundreds of liners, I'm yet to find a flex liner that didn't come as clean as a rigid liner.

Badastronaut30 · Apr 15, 2014

I was just up on my roof. Yikes. Since no one else wants to go up there and look I figured I would. Two flues up there. one is capped with screen and that is the small one. 7x11. The other tile is 20x7ish. Both look like crap. Left side (larger) with no cap looks clean and from what I could see. the right (smaller) flue is blackish but it had a cap so I couldn't look straight down it. Like you guys said, I don't trust dealer A but I'm really digging the Lopi freedom. At this point they are not doing the install. I'm just worried about the run around I might get if they don't do the install and I have problems down the road. Dealer A did a freestanding install on a buddies house and there has been a red flag since I saw a few things about his install I didn't really like. One leg is off the ground on his stove (possible his floor is just unlevel) And his chimney pipe that sticks up almost 10 feet out of his house has no support arms coming off of it. I live near some large fancy houses and every single stove pipe I see that is over 5 feet tall has some support arms coming off of it. I think at this point I'm going to get one more local Mason/sweep to the house to get another estimate on stove install and chimney reline. At least then I will have a comparable estimate to the install of the other chimney sweep that was out.

The chimney sweep quoted me $1400 total for the insulated flex liner system. He didn't give specifics in quote what liner was Brand or thickness the liner was. He did specify its high temperature tested lifetime warranty if he sweeps it ever year. Should I find this out? He did specify 1/4 ceramic wool insulation. He also said additional 450 to hook stove up if it was in my house ready to go.

I'm leaning to the freedom in the flush mount at this point. If I decide after a year I need more heat I will move it out further and modify hearth then. My girlfriend wants a small cook top for tea kettle and so Do I but I might be able to rig up a steel plate that will sit on top of stove to hold small kettle.

Thanks again for the Help! I know lots of people with wood stoves but none of them have a insert so it hard to get info.

Kosmik · Apr 15, 2014

It's not necessary to them, because most people won't know the difference and they probably bill by the job (even if they 'itemize')...
So the more corners they cut, the more money they make.

I wouldn't use them, if possible. Giving off the 'screw you' vibe.
And screw the dealer, probably buy the insert cheaper elsewhere and get a competent sweep for the install? These guys sound like 'hack-job' central and if you can't trust them to install correctly the first time, can you trust them to fix the mistakes they made?

Perhaps install the liner yourself? Plenty people on here done it, you seem to have an 'eye' for chit work. Should probably do alright, beer is cheaper than contracted labor. (i.e. paying the contractor $30/hr/person when he pays them $12/hr). Lots of things are 'daunting' at first, till you do them once.

It's like the local dealer here...Hot tubs and stoves??? She don't know chit about either, except they both have a big markup when you sell one.

Grisu · Apr 15, 2014

Badastronaut30 said:
I don't trust dealer A but I'm really digging the Lopi freedom.

Have you looked at the Quadrafire 5100? http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/5100i-Wood-Insert.aspx?page=Overview
Costs a bit more but maybe you have a better dealer close by.

bobdog2o02 · Apr 15, 2014

I would do some research on other Lopi dealers near you. And not use dealer A.

http://www.lopistoves.com/dealer-locator.aspx

Badastronaut30 · Apr 15, 2014

bobdog2o02 said:
I would do some research on other Lopi dealers near you. And not use dealer A.

http://www.lopistoves.com/dealer-locator.aspx

My nearest other Lopi dealer is a about 1.5 hours away. Its in the same town my girlfriend is from and I go there often. I have called them a few times for opinions on the liner. They agreed insulated liner for our northern climate or deterioration chimney. Local Dealer A does do a one price per install. So I can understand why they don't want to insulate. More time less money for them. They don't clean the chimney so they don't give a rats about what it looks like. Makes sense why all chimney sweeps say insulated. I'm still pissed that they told me chimney sweep sounds not credible.....

Owen1508 · Apr 15, 2014

Hogwildz said:
That dealer is a joke, but there is nothing wrong with rigid liner. I used double wall insulated and it is much easier to clean then the last 5' of flex at the bottom.
As already reinforced, get the liner insulated and install a block off plate.
Unless the shop was using insulated double wall, they are blowing smoke up your arse about never needing to insulate.
I bet they are figuring for uninsulated single wall rigid.

IMHO I believe they were using 5' flex was to get past the offset/smokeshelf . Flex all the way is fine. I would rather take the opinion of the sweep. With what you've been describing the condition/question on the chimney I would get a full lvl 2 inspection to be sure all was/is safe and correct. With two flues you may have an unused breach, make sure it was sealed off properly.

bholler · Apr 15, 2014

Finally a thread where we all agree lol. I think rigid is a good liner but a real pain to install. That is why we don't use it but it is a good liner for sure. Regardless of liner type it should be insulated as everyone has said. If you are insulating there is no need for a level 3 inspection like owen said a level 2 will be enough. A level 3 involves confirming clearances everywhere that usually means tearing down walls or ceilings to do so. It is very expensive and intrusive and very few are done or needed. If you insulate the liner properly you get a zero clearance to combustibles so level 3 is not necessary. By th way I would have the liner priced out in heavy wall flex also I think that is the best liner available for this situation.

bholler · Apr 15, 2014

I just read that you say he quoted 1/4" insulation. That will not get you a zero clearance rating if you are insulating go with 1/2" it will ensure that your setup is safe. And yes you need to have the sweeps give you the specs on the type of liner to be used.

Grisu · Apr 15, 2014

bholler said:
That will not get you a zero clearance rating if you are insulating go with 1/2" it will ensure that your setup is safe

That will be tough if the chimney is only 7" wide (plus in bad shape so in places could be less). BeGreen's suggestion of using a 5.5" liner is really worth considering.

bholler · Apr 15, 2014

the op said that it was clay lined it might be possible to break out the liners and if that is not possible the sweep already said he was going to ovalize. I would do that before down sizing but a 5.5 would probably work fine with the height. But definatly use 1/2" with out that in an old house where proper clearances are very unlikely it could be unsafe.

Owen1508 · Apr 15, 2014

bholler said:
Finally a thread where we all agree lol. . If you are insulating there is no need for a level 3 inspection like owen said a level 2 will be enough..

Yeah I rethought that just after posting and edited it shortly after. i was really thinking about the double flue and a possible unused breach that may be just sheetrocked over. The sweep sould find out any concerns with a 2 you are correct.

good to see everyone is in line with this too.

Unsure about local dealer, need advice on insert

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