Do my numbers make sense for pellets?

bdud · Apr 21, 2014

I looking at getting pellets to fill my ~3.4 ton silo which automatically feeds my pellet boiler and I use in a Harman insert. I had the silo filled last year by Sandri and they pumped in 3.381 tons of New England pellets and I am down to ~ 80 lbs. I was considering buying 3 tons of bagged pellets and blowing them into my silo with a leaf blower (in another thread), not sure of final amount as the pellets might not reach far end of silo.
So I sat down and tried to work out, what would be the most cost effective.

Okanagan Gold, $289/ton, 8590btu/lb, ash 0.24%, delivery for me $75 for 3 tons.
Some math to work out btu's per $.. This is the part I would like someone to check..
8,590btu/lb x 6,000lbs(3 tons) = 51,540,000 btu's in 3 tons.
$289 cost per ton, x3 + $75 delivery, = $942
51,540,000 btu's in 3 tons divided by $942 = 54,713.375 btu's per $

Sandri delivery of New England pellets, $215/ton, 8,150btu/lb, ash 0.5%, delivery to me $255 for any amount
Same math as above but using the 3.381 tons they got in my silo last time...
8,150btu/lb x 6,762lbs = 55,110,300 btu's in 3.381 tons.
$215 cost per ton + $255 delivery, = $981.92
55,110,300 btu's divided by $981.92 = 56,125 btu's per $.

So if I look at the figures above the Sandri delivery comes out $40 more but I will have more btu's in my silo than the Okanagan Gold, 55,110,300 vs 51,540,000 btu's, so hopefully the pellets will last longer, I do not have to use my planned leaf blower / filler, cut and lift 6,000 lbs of pellets, etc, etc.
The downside of the New England pellets are more ash than the Okanagan Gold but I only cleaned my boiler with 4 tons of the New England pellets, twice.

Do my numbers make sense?

TimfromMA · Apr 21, 2014

Your arithmetic looks good.

hossthehermit · Apr 21, 2014

They charge $255 to deliver bulk pellets ?????????????????????????? :eek:

Kinda seems to me like that's defeating the whole purpose of buying bulk .......

bdud · Apr 21, 2014

I am ~90 miles away from them and they are presently the only bulk pellet delivery in MA.
I suppose it is the chicken and the egg. If people get bulk storage then companies will get the trucks, if people cannot get the bulk delivery they will keep using the bags..
MA is I believe using grant money to encourage bulk storage and delivery.

TimfromMA · Apr 21, 2014

For that price I'd buy bag pellets then load them into the silo myself.

Hoot23 · Apr 21, 2014

hossthehermit said:
They charge $255 to deliver bulk pellets ?????????????????????????? Kinda seems to me like that's defeating the whole purpose of buying bulk .......

Maine energy systems is $250 for bulk buy.

DZL_Damon · Apr 21, 2014

Hoot23 said:
Maine energy systems is $250 for bulk buy.

Bagged is always less. I believe MEsys is selling GWF which is often found for $200-220 around here bagged. I know its expensive to get the specialty truck to deliver, but didn't figure it would cost MORE than bagged.

Hoot23 · Apr 22, 2014

DZL_Damon said:
Bagged is always less. I believe MEsys is selling GWF which is often found for $200-220 around here bagged. I know its expensive to get the specialty truck to deliver, but didn't figure it would cost MORE than bagged.

I thought it would be less for bulk also. I've been trying to figure out how I can get a tractor trailer load delivered to my house. It would be split between 3 other family members and I have a loader with forks. No luck so far. The pellet makers I contacted only sell to dealers.

MCPO · Apr 22, 2014

Hoot23 said:
I thought it would be less for bulk also. I've been trying to figure out how I can get a tractor trailer load delivered to my house. It would be split between 3 other family members and I have a loader with forks. No luck so far. The pellet makers I contacted only sell to dealers.

OK, next step is to get a dealer to have a truckload delivered to your place. He ought to do that for a nominal fee .

bdud · Apr 22, 2014

DZL_Damon said:
Bagged is always less. I believe MEsys is selling GWF which is often found for $200-220 around here bagged. I know its expensive to get the specialty truck to deliver, but didn't figure it would cost MORE than bagged.

Bulk delivery does take longer for the driver than bagged, but for me when the bulk delivery is finished, the pellets are stored in the basement and I never have to touch or move them again. It also means I can get more pellets in my basement than if I stacked them in bags. I just wish the delivery was cheaper.
Sandri sells the bulk delivery pellets cheaper than the same ones bagged, $30 a ton. With some more of my silly math, a $100 plus for me there (3.4 tons) so in effect I am paying another $80 premium buying in bulk vs bagged if I could get the equivalent pellets delivered for $75 at $245 a ton.
The figures don't seem too bad, I save some of my hours and possible bad back.

TimfromMA · Apr 22, 2014

bdud said:
Bulk delivery does take longer for the driver than bagged, but for me when the bulk delivery is finished, the pellets are stored in the basement and I never have to touch or move them again. It also means I can get more pellets in my basement than if I stacked them in bags. I just wish the delivery was cheaper.
Sandri sells the bulk delivery pellets cheaper than the same ones bagged, $30 a ton. With some more of my silly math, a $100 plus for me there (3.4 tons) so in effect I am paying another $80 premium buying in bulk vs bagged if I could get the equivalent pellets delivered for $75 at $245 a ton.
The figures don't seem too bad, I save some of my hours and possible bad back.

There are 6 tons in this photo. I do not see how unbagging them and adding a storage silo will decrease the floor space used.

heaterman · Apr 22, 2014

All wood pellets are the same BTU/pound. A pound of wood is a pound of wood.
The variation comes in the density or weight/volume ratio. Hardwood pellets are slightly more dense so they take up less volume or "space" to provide a given number of btu's. Softwood pellets are slightly lighter per cubic foot and of course that means less btu's than the same volume of hardwood.

Corey · Apr 22, 2014

Math looks good, but WOW - is that the price they are getting away with up there? Pellets at 55Kbtu/dollar is almost $440 per cord of oak (24Mbtu) / $390 per cord of ash (21.6Mbtu) A cord of hedge (30Mbtu) would be worth almost $550 bucks!

I would expect those btu/lb numbers for pellets are averages... and if they are like any other advertized quantity, likely exaggerated somewhat. Given those two factors, it's likely the 'btu' benefit of either pellet brand is pretty much a wash. I'd probably go with which ever brand / delivery method suits your needs best.

bdud · Apr 22, 2014

Nice stacking.
I have never got more than ~2.5t in my basement before the silo, the unfinished part is not large. I also used to stack the bags on pallets with heavy duty wheels on the bottom as I was worried about damp and I have a water filter and many water /vent pipes above that area. The silo goes just short of the ceiling, lining 2 basement walls and forming a third and fourth wall to the ceiling. If the silo was not there I should get the 3+tons in there.
The silo itself has only a ~18"x24" door and there is no way I am getting in there and unloading the bags of pellets. I was testing blowing the pellets into the silo with a leaf blower using the outside fill hose and it worked. It did not blow the pellets in with the same force the bulk truck used. Pellets were going mostly half-way into my silo, some were hitting the back wall but not high. Maybe I could improve the leaf blower power or efficiency, but I was concerned with me blowing the pellets in I might get even less than 3 tons in my silo as they would all stack up at end the fill pipe comes in and the back would have a large empty space. That is when I sat down and had my epiphany to see what money and time I was saving by blowing in pellets myself, hence my post to see if my numbers made sense.
So to me I am giving up blowing in pellets with a leaf blower and I will get Sandri to bulk deliver my pellets.
P.s. I have 15' of 4" conductive clear suction hose and a male and female 4" hose connectors for sale with minimal use.

TimfromMA · Apr 22, 2014

BTW, Franklin is a nice town. I lived there for about 5 years. I moved a few miles north to Milford about 7 years ago.

DBNH22 · Apr 22, 2014

TimfromMA said:
There are 6 tons in this photo. I do not see how unbagging them and adding a storage silo will decrease the floor space used.

View attachment 131998

I count those bags stacked 15 layers high. Are you not concerned about the bottom bags getting crushed? I've spoken to reps at the mills who've said that pellets should not be stacked more than one ton. They may have been referring to palletized bags but weight is weight whether they're palletized or not. I've seen crushed pallets in bottom bags before and I stack mine no higher than 8 layers.

DBNH22 · Apr 22, 2014

heaterman said:
All wood pellets are the same BTU/pound. A pound of wood is a pound of wood.
The variation comes in the density or weight/volume ratio. Hardwood pellets are slightly more dense so they take up less volume or "space" to provide a given number of btu's. Softwood pellets are slightly lighter per cubic foot and of course that means less btu's than the same volume of hardwood.

Yeah I wouldn't trust the manufacturers claims with regard to the BTU value of their pellets. I think it's better to test them for yourself.

TimfromMA · Apr 22, 2014

Hasn't been a problem yet.

MCPO · Apr 23, 2014

Dana B said:
I count those bags stacked 15 layers high. Are you not concerned about the bottom bags getting crushed? I've spoken to reps at the mills who've said that pellets should not be stacked more than one ton. They may have been referring to palletized bags but weight is weight whether they're palletized or not. I've seen crushed pallets in bottom bags before and I stack mine no higher than 8 layers.

I`ve been stacking 15 high for years and never had crushed pellets, (yet ).Or at least I haven`t noticed.

TimfromMA · Apr 23, 2014

I wonder if it helps that my pellets are stacked on a carpeted floor.

bdud · Apr 23, 2014

Corey said:
Math looks good, but WOW - is that the price they are getting away with up there? Pellets at 55Kbtu/dollar is almost $440 per cord of oak (24Mbtu) / $390 per cord of ash (21.6Mbtu) A cord of hedge (30Mbtu) would be worth almost $550 bucks!

I would expect those btu/lb numbers for pellets are averages... and if they are like any other advertized quantity, likely exaggerated somewhat. Given those two factors, it's likely the 'btu' benefit of either pellet brand is pretty much a wash. I'd probably go with which ever brand / delivery method suits your needs best.

My but/dollar calculation includes the delivery charge so it is really is "as delivered btu/dollar".

DZL_Damon · Apr 24, 2014

heaterman said:
All wood pellets are the same BTU/pound. A pound of wood is a pound of wood.
The variation comes in the density or weight/volume ratio. Hardwood pellets are slightly more dense so they take up less volume or "space" to provide a given number of btu's. Softwood pellets are slightly lighter per cubic foot and of course that means less btu's than the same volume of hardwood.

Close, but not 100% true. Some species do posses higher btu/lb. However differences in btu/lbs between manufacturers usually has to do with ash content, moisture, and other factors (bark, etc).

I do at least 8 tests per year with 2 manufacturers.... their btu/lbs is close but does vary and differ.

Monica in France · Apr 25, 2014

As you say : nearly true. I came across a table a few months ago with all the different woods , I can't find it now , but I remember it varied by about 5% .

This side of the pond the humidity is taken into account in the net Calorific value displayed on each bag. The net value is basically the gross value minus the energy needed to evaporate the humidity.

DZL_Damon · Apr 25, 2014

Monica in France said:
As you say : nearly true. I came across a table a few months ago with all the different woods , I can't find it now , but I remember it varied by about 5% .

This side of the pond the humidity is taken into account in the net Calorific value displayed on each bag. The net value is basically the gross value minus the energy needed to evaporate the humidity.

Yes, same here. I get 3 energy values from my tests: As Received (the amount that's useful to the consumer), then moisture free, and moisture & ash free. If you're dealing with pellets of different moisture content you can compare the energy values based on moisture free and moisture/ash free.

alternativeheat · Apr 26, 2014

bdud said:
I looking at getting pellets to fill my ~3.4 ton silo which automatically feeds my pellet boiler and I use in a Harman insert. I had the silo filled last year by Sandri and they pumped in 3.381 tons of New England pellets and I am down to ~ 80 lbs. I was considering buying 3 tons of bagged pellets and blowing them into my silo with a leaf blower (in another thread), not sure of final amount as the pellets might not reach far end of silo.
So I sat down and tried to work out, what would be the most cost effective.

Okanagan Gold, $289/ton, 8590btu/lb, ash 0.24%, delivery for me $75 for 3 tons.
Some math to work out btu's per $.. This is the part I would like someone to check..
8,590btu/lb x 6,000lbs(3 tons) = 51,540,000 btu's in 3 tons.
$289 cost per ton, x3 + $75 delivery, = $942
51,540,000 btu's in 3 tons divided by $942 = 54,713.375 btu's per $

Sandri delivery of New England pellets, $215/ton, 8,150btu/lb, ash 0.5%, delivery to me $255 for any amount
Same math as above but using the 3.381 tons they got in my silo last time...
8,150btu/lb x 6,762lbs = 55,110,300 btu's in 3.381 tons.
$215 cost per ton + $255 delivery, = $981.92
55,110,300 btu's divided by $981.92 = 56,125 btu's per $.

So if I look at the figures above the Sandri delivery comes out $40 more but I will have more btu's in my silo than the Okanagan Gold, 55,110,300 vs 51,540,000 btu's, so hopefully the pellets will last longer, I do not have to use my planned leaf blower / filler, cut and lift 6,000 lbs of pellets, etc, etc.
The downside of the New England pellets are more ash than the Okanagan Gold but I only cleaned my boiler with 4 tons of the New England pellets, twice.

Do my numbers make sense?

So just to get this all straight, you are considering blowing in by hand and leaf blower, 3 tons of pellets into a silo to save $40. When that is done you will have less pellets and less BTU for your heating season and you did all that work? This to me would feel like some sort of torture ritual ! Plus by going with bags you will be short more or less about $60 worth of pellets won't you ?

Do my numbers make sense for pellets?

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