New Jotul Firelight 12

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I think the big question is whether this fellow is good at Jotul rebuilds? Seems like he is blowing a bit of smoke calling it an F600, $200 liner, and a silicon paint job.

(and thanks Joful for looking up that posting)
 
I think the big question is whether this fellow is good at Jotul rebuilds? Seems like he is blowing a bit of smoke calling it an F600, $200 liner, and a silicon paint job.

(and thanks Joful for looking up that posting)

What is wrong with silicon paint jobs? They looked well done in person. Is that the wrong kind of paint to use?

Agreed that he has said some sketchy things. He also didn't know the model number of the Jotul that was the biggest seller of all time (602). I mean he knew about the stove being the most popular, but didn't remember the model number. He had a lot of stoves.

What if someone had a used one, filled in a crack with JB-weld, and painted it over? I would never detect it.

I am getting some quotes on a new F600. Assuming a used but new-looking painted-by-this-guy F12 was $1600 or close to that, how much more should I want to pay for a new 600 from a real dealer?

I guess part of the answer is if you think the 600 is better than the F12 or not. Side loading vs top loading. $120 cats every few years vs no cats to deal with, etc.
 
What is wrong with silicon paint jobs? They looked well done in person. Is that the wrong kind of paint to use?

I just have never heard of this. Silicon paint brings up nothing in Google. All you get are silicone paints which are not necessarily very high temp. There are only a few stove paints on the market. Forest Paint's Stove Brite and Thurmalox are two well known brands. What paint brand did he use?
 
Silicone vaporizes around 800 degrees. No way it could be used for stove paint.
 
Sorry. Silicone.

I don't know what he used, but probably this:

http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-Paint-6230P-1200º-Stove/dp/B003SR2G4K

"Formulated with a unique blend of heat resistant pigments in a silicone polymer resin that provides excellent color retention and film integrity in working temperatures up to 1200°F (650°C), High Temperature Paint is designed for rapid curing and great working properties over ferrous metal surfaces, Ideal for wood, pellet, and gas stoves as well as stove pipes, engines, engine manifolds, and many other metal substrates that are subject to high temperatures, Fast Drying Silicone High-heat Paint, Can withstand temperatures to 1200°F, Maintains excellent color stability to 900°F and good color stability to 1200°F, Can be used on wood stoves, pipe, boilers, furnaces, radiators, ovens, engines, auto exhaust manifolds, heaters, mufflers, barbecues, etc, 12 Ounce Cans, Finish: Golden Fire Brown, Please NOTE: This is dark brown with a little bit of sparkle to it, SKU: TWST3770"
 
In addition to the F12, that I wrote that comment on, I owned and burned both an Oslo and a Castine for several years (I have owned and burned a pretty wide variety of stoves in my homes over the years). There is no comparison between the F12 and those Jotul secondary burn stoves. The non-cats are fine stoves within the genre, but the F12, which I have burned 24/7 for 17 seasons, is a better stove, hands down. My cats have lasted, on average, 7 years and were easily replaced in under 10 minutes. (I did try a Steelcat for under a month and it did not perform well). In return for this maintenance you get a stove with great burn controllability, relatively steady heat output over the burn cycle, long burn times, easy loading and a very large useful firebox (much larger than the F600).

I did own a rebuilt F12 before I bought the Progress that sits at the opposite end of the house (I am a 2 stove household) from the F12. All I can say is be very careful with rebuilt F12s. Mine was rebuilt by a reputable member here, but they just didn't get the rebuild right and could not correct it, even after a couple of tries. I won't bore you with the details, but I would want to see it installed and burning before I bought a rebuild. Also, inspect the cast iron very carefully as I have seen the consequences of overfiring resulting from leaving the ash drawer open too long when starting fires - not pretty. In particular, inspect the bottom of the stove - the cast piece that forms the bottom of the firebox.

Good luck, if you can find a good used example, you've got a keeper. It took the guy above (Joful) a while to find his second one, but I think he'd tell you it was worth the wait. I recommend this stove without reservation.
 
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This is newly rebuild and never burned in after the paint job. I don't see any way to see it burning before buying it.

What do I look for on the castings? Does anyone have a photo tutorial of stove defects to look for?
 
Here are a couple photos of cracked bases due to using the ash pan door as an air supply.

Jotul base crack.jpg Jotul base crack2.jpg
 
This is newly rebuild and never burned in after the paint job. I don't see any way to see it burning before buying it.

What do I look for on the castings? Does anyone have a photo tutorial of stove defects to look for?

I wouldn't recommend going down this path if you do not already know what to look for.

Many of these stoves have been damaged by overfiring caused by leaving the ash drawer door (say that 3 times fast...) open too long when starting the stove up. 12 years (minimum) is a big window for a mistake like this to happen.

If you do go ahead and take a look, be prepared to spend some time and go over every square inch of the stove carefully with a very bright light looking carefully for cracks in the cast iron. Once you have done this on the outside of the stove (including underneath the stove and in back of the stove), open the firebox and do this on the inside of the stove, inch by inch by inch, paying special attention to the bottom plate. Now remove the bolt at the rear of the stove that holds the cat flame deflector. Inspect the deflector for cracks, pull the cat out and inspect the area behind it and the cat itself. Now open the ash pan door, pull the pan out and inspect that area of the stove. Next, check the operation of the footpedal assembly and the manual damper assembly located on the upper right hand side and operated with the wooden handled hex wrench. I would probably spend an hour doing this, and I'm familiar with the stove!

Caveat Emptor!
 
This is newly rebuild and never burned in after the paint job. I don't see any way to see it burning before buying it.

What do I look for on the castings? Does anyone have a photo tutorial of stove defects to look for?


...and don't forget to look carefully for areas where the rebuilder may have tried to use stove cement and paint to hide those cracks!
 
I had watched Craigslist and other local sellers for about a year, trying to find an F12 in good original / used condition, while doing my research on new stoves. My preference was to find a new stove as nice as the F12 (in my opinion, of course), a catalytic stove with pretty iron outsides. Blaze King had been teasing the Ashford for more than a year, forever shifting their release date, and I got sick of waiting for them. I could not find another cosmetically acceptable catalytic stove of similar size with a top flue.

So, I just bit the bullet and plopped down $1500 for a "rebuilt" F12, from a guy who sounds a LOT like your seller. This guy had a seasonal job, and spent his off season rebuilding and reselling old wood stoves. Since there's not much $/hr in a business like that, he did the minimal amount of work on every stove, to make it pretty and get it out the door. Within weeks of bringing it home, most of the gaskets fell off, because he used clear cement on grapho glass gaskets. I pulled the front door and top load gaskets, and replaced with proper braided fiberglass and black silica gasket cement, and haven't had a problem since. The damper was out of adjustment, but easily fixed. The only thing I found that really bothers me is a crack in the iron top, under the top load door. It hasn't been a problem yet, but I'm on the lookout for a new top, as Jotul no longer sells that casting.

The Firelight 12 is a fantastic stove, but being older, a risky proposition for a first-time burner. We answer hundreds (thousands?) of posts here every year, from new burners having trouble with their stoves. Until recently, some of those trouble posts were my own. One problem with a newbie shopping used stoves is that you may miss critical details when inspecting a stove to buy, but the other problem is that there will be many questions about wood vs. technique vs. installation vs. a malfunctioning stove, when you have the inevitable beginner's troubles.

One thing you'll learn around here is a lot of folks swap their stoves out pretty frequently. Once you have the chimney installed, and catch the hang of this, you'll see it's not nearly as big a deal as the initial installation. Set up your hearth so that you're exceeding minimum hearth pad size, etc., and you'll have the flexibility to install any stove on there, down the road. Then get yourself a stove that's going to perform right out of the box, even if you think you'll be lusting for that Firelight 12 down the road. Get over the hump of the first two years, and you'll be in a good position to hunt down a better used stove.

BTW... I'm not sure I'd have bought the Firelight 12, if I didn't already have one at the other end of the house. A big part of my decision to go this way was interchangeability of parts. If one stove breaks, I can steal parts from the other to get it back up and running. One of my stoves is in the 4-story end of the house, the other stove is in a 1-story part of the house... guess which one I want to keep running? In any case, some parts for these older stoves are only stocked at Jotul headquarters (Norway), so it can take a few weeks to get things if something breaks mid-season. Having two of the same stove eliminates that issue.

... and before you ask, "what could break," search out my old post on a squirrel getting into my first F12. It destroyed my internal refractory, and shut me down for 6 weeks right in Jan/Feb of 2012.
 
Ok. Thanks for the advice. I am not sure I would know if stove cement was used to hide a crack. It does seem risky. He told me that new stoves are not as good because they use less pure cast iron and that the 35 year old stoves were better. I know enough to not believe that - though I did read that Vermont Castings may have gotten worse.
 
I offered less due to the unknown risk of hidden damage, the unknown quality of his paint, and the fact that the foot pedal was not working - but he said that his $1699 price was firm. So I am giving up on that and getting a new stove.
 
Check with stovelark to see if they have any F600s or model 12s. He is down in CT. Maybe consider a top-vented Jotul F55 instead?
 
Hello RS and BG, We don't have any used Fl 12s or used F600s at the moment- A Firelight F600 new in matte black now is about 2600 but Jotul does have an online coupon for 200 dollars until the end of May too.
FWIW, someone selling a used FL 12 for 1600 dollars I think is a crime- we would sell it used for 1000-1200 and offer a one season warranty as well- I think the OP would be much better off and happier if he went the used Oslo or new Oslo F500 if he wants a Jotul. If he has to have a top loader, the TL50 Rangeley could be considered, or maybe the front loading only F55 Carrabassett?? If he wants a big heater, the Oslo, Firelight or Carrabassett would be great choices. There are many more out there to consider too. I agree the Jotul cast line does have a great look to them and the extra 200 off right now makes Jotuls even more appealing.
About the FL comparisons The 12 cat was smaller than its present version internally, the cat housing took up firebox space so the present model is rated much higher in BTUs 83K vs 55K for the cat model. Jotul still has available parts for the cat model, albeit the prices for these parts are higher each year. I'm not a big fan of the Jotul cats and they did all swap to sec air tubes as soon as they could. If someone wants a big catalytic model, the blazeking ashford 30 should be looked at, its very expensive though.
A final thought- the FL 12 is still very popular here in CT we sell probably 50-60 rear burn plates a season and 20-30 andirons for that model alone, but the plain fact is the Oslo or Firelight F600 will perform better and heat more. If you are not looking for a top loading stove, I think they offer a better value. Good luck to you, I'm sure whatever you get, you'll like it if its a Jotul, they are just good performing day to day heaters. Get some good dry wood for them and they'll take it from there.
 
Thank you. I am not looking for a top-loader. I can't find a price near $2600. I called the local dealer. Nope. I called the dealer in CT that people said gave them good deals. Nope. I called the places in NH that people said gave good deals. Nope. No one.

The lowest anyone would go on an F600 was $2939 - the $200 coupon - $130 more. So that is $2600 + tax.

I don't see any hope of getting one for $2400 unless you know otherwise.

What I really want is a blue/black one - for - say - $2800. I can't get anyone to do that. Even with it being May. And even with the $200 coupon.

Moreover, there is no longer a tax credit, and all of the vouchers require not only an old stove to trade in, but also require professional installation, for which they charge ~$2200 for. Any good vouchers requires you to be "income qualified" (on welfare or other government assistance program).
 
Hello RS, I was off today, I will get in touch with you tomorrow with prices for the F600 in Matte black and Blue Black. IRT to the tax credits, they are not dead yet, supposedly congress will act upon them this month or next, hopefully will backdate all stove purchases till 01/01/14, we'll see. I will be in touch tomorrow.
 
Thank you. I actually just want a blue-black F600. I understand it is normally $370 more than a matte black one, and that is fine.

Good choice . . . the only regret I have with my F-500 is going with the cheaper matte black instead of blue black . . . fortunately, it's not a huge regret.
 
Going on the 7th season running my model #12 cat. -( original post of the best craigs list i ever found) Just ordered a new back-plate, and a new Jotul CAT (steel binding) - Do Not Use the Condar replacement for the model 12, in this model they expand and take out your refractory shelf that holds the cat in place. Cant speak for the other models they fit. Anyway, doing a full rebuild this year after 6 years of about 3 to 4 chords per year of moderately seasoned hard wood. I found a supplier for refractory ceramic fiber board on line that I am crafting a new shelf out of for my cat.

The stove has worked flawlessly and I would highly recommend the model 12 to anyone.

Anyway, good find and good luck with it.
 
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Where did you buy your Jotul cat, and what did you pay? Learned my lesson the hard way with Condar, on two chambers in two stoves, one brandy new.
 
Ebay! $119.00.
http://www.ebay.com/usr/lklick4goods
To be seen if it is a good deal. The seller has mixed reviews, but I figured I would take a chance.

Hard to find the jotul cats except through the dealers for top dollar.

That stinks about your chambers!!! Thats an expensive "oh sh#t moment"!
 

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yep. One of these days, heating with wood will start saving me money, instead of costing me money. So far, I'm still in the hole, quite a bit if you count the tractor upgrade.
 
Tractor and other boy toys can't be included. They are doing multiple jobs including saving on landscaping chores.
 
Well, let's see, then...

I've burned maybe 15 cords, each saving me approx. $500 in oil, so:

$7500 "saved"
- $1500 real saws
+ $300 unloaded old saws
- $150 PPE
- $100 chain grinder
- $200 spare chains
- $100 mauls, axes, wedges, sledge
- $1000 splitter
- $650 original stove rebuild
- $1500 second stove
- $400 first two cat combusters
- $3000 two chimney liners
=======
- $800

So, I'm almost out of the hole at $800 in the red, but I'm sure I'm leaving a lot out... such as the cost of actually getting and processing the wood! Good thing I enjoy the work.

This year, I'm looking at two new cats, to replace the two still good (but improperly designed) ones I own, and potentially another two sets of refractory. Grand total should be about $1700 for two stoves.
 
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