Summer DWH options

bdud said:

I use a Nyle Geyser water heat pump connected to a Caleffi 80 gallon water tank which supplies all the hot water requirements for our 5 adult house when not using the pellet boiler. No one has noticed the water not being hot. The water pressure with the more consistent temps with 2 showers running at the same time, is so much better than our old indirect coil in the oil boiler. A plus is also a cooler, dryer basement and the water condensate I pump out to a little herb garden growing outside.

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bdud,
I've just installed a Nyletherm. You don't have to worry about the condensate freezing when you pump it outside because you only use it in the summer? Do you have a recommendation on a pump? Thanks.

Also, another advantage of an add-on hpwh is that the total installation with tank can be shorter. The integrated units are pretty tall. However, the add-on does take up a little floor space.

I had a Nyletherm installed last Thursday and have barely gotten any hot water in the past few days. I have a 45 gallon Superstore but Saturday and Sunday morning the showers were both warm rather than hot and I've had hot water once or twice during the day which didn't last very long. I'm going to be emailing Tom some pics and my plumber is going to speak to him again. I'm hoping there's a simple tweak that will resolve this.

My suspicion is that the temp sensor is too high on the Superstor.
This is not a good location. It needs to be lower on the tank.
I spoke with your plumber that it might be the placement of the temperature control needs to be moved or the temperature is not being accurately read.
Please use my email [email protected]
Thanks,
Tom

velvetfoot said:

bdud,
I've just installed a Nyletherm. You don't have to worry about the condensate freezing when you pump it outside because you only use it in the summer? Do you have a recommendation on a pump? Thanks.

Also, another advantage of an add-on hpwh is that the total installation with tank can be shorter. The integrated units are pretty tall. However, the add-on does take up a little floor space.

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I only use my heat pump when I turn off my boiler, I might turn it off this week.
I used a Mars condensate pump I purchased at a heating supply house. I also have a supply tank for my pellet boiler and the overflow for that is also connected to the pump.
Inside it also has a float switch which activates if the pump fails or cannot keep up.
I wired this to my zwave water detector so it will shut off my house water supply if it trips.

Is there a supply list of materials needed to hook up the Nyletherm?

Thinking about getting one, but not sure of my plumbing skills...............

bdud said:

I also have a supply tank for my pellet boiler and the overflow for that is also connected to the pump.

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I can't say I understand that. Overflow???

I ordered a Little Giant pump off Amazon for $47. It doesn't have an overflow switch, as far as I know. Not that much condensate being generated at present.

sinnian said:

Is there a supply list of materials needed to hook up the Nyletherm?

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I don't have a list, but based on my experience, I'd make a list before going down to the store rather than what I did, which was create one in my head and make even more trips than usual. I still have stuff to return.
Plus, it makes a difference what you're hooking it up to.

velvetfoot said:

Plus, it makes a difference what you're hooking it up to.

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Just an electric HWH (which is already connected to the pellet boiler) ~ but would just be the standard through the drain installation for plumbing, and cheating off the HWH's electric.

velvetfoot said:

I can't say I understand that. Overflow???

I ordered a Little Giant pump off Amazon for $47. It doesn't have an overflow switch, as far as I know. Not that much condensate being generated at present.

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You should get a nice collection of water in the summer and a nice cool basement.
I believe it is a requirement in some states, MA included, that the heating system is a pressurized system. For my Windhager pellet boiler installation, which I believe requires a non-pressurized system, I have 2 'circuits' with a circulation pump for each. My existing baseboard heaters have one circulation pump, individual zone valves, indirect coil of hot water tank and indirect coil of a Turbomax storage tank, all pressurized to ~15psi. The other 'circuit' is the Windhager boiler, one circulation pump and the 110 gallons of the TurboMax storage tank with is fed by a supply tank with a ball valve and float, non-pressurized. If the tank overfills it has a pipe connection on it and this is what I also connected to the condensate pump.
In this picture, top left is this supply tank.

Okay, I got it, thanks.

Tom thanks for the quick response on here and through email. I'm sure it's just a matter of making the right changes for my system to get the Nyletherm operating correctly and optimally.

The unit has been running since late Thursday night and I have roughly 1/2 - 2/3 worth of water in the 5 gallon bucket that it's draining into. I have a cheap $10 digital thermometer/hygrometer sitting in my basement and the humidty has been reading in the high 50% to low 60% since then. I'm hoping that I will actually see an improvement in the dehumidification once the Nyletherm install is finalized.

I know Tom had told me that his unit does a pretty decent job of dehumidification in his home on the coast.

Does anyone else running a Nyletherm have before and after humidity level numbers? I live in southern NH about 40 miles from the coast and I'm thinking ideal humidity is going to be high 30% to low 40% I think I read it on a weather site that that is optimal indoor humidity for my area. Even if my cheap hygrometer is 5% off I think I'm still too high at the moment.

My basement might not be representative, since it has spray foamed walls to the floor. The summer I installed my Nyletherm I had the bright idea to open the basement window and let the basement air out.

I had built shelves around the basement perimeter using some pressed strawboard shelves that were painted white that I bought at HD.
The shelves started to sprout mold through the paint.

We had been working with Nyle to get the heat pump hooked up and do a TV program on it. Since the Nyletherm had to be converted to use with a non-electric tank and they had never done
that before, it took a while.
Once I finally got the unit from them with the wiring change, I fired up the unit, closed the windows and cleaned all the shelves with Lysol.
Since the unit is on a couple cinder blocks, I hooked the condensate drain to a garden hose to go halfway around my basement to a floor drain. I suspect in the dead of summer I generate a gallon or so a day of water.

The amount of dehumidification is going to be dependent on the basement and the water usage.

We might have some used condensate pumps with our stock. I need to check. We have about 1500 units that we are going through. About half are used. That will be another whole fun thing.....

Dana - humidity levels are tricky to understand and conditions may cause large differences. The trouble with relative humidity (RH) is that it is very dependent on the actual temperature. Given the same humidity level in the air (moisture per lb of dry air), the RH will increase signficantly as you reduce the space temperature. For that reason, many cooler basements may have high RH levels, even if the actual humidity level is not that high. Typically, with most AC's (or other refrigeration devices) moisture can be driven out of the air down to about 55-60 degrees. That produces a desireable RH level at 70-75 degrees, but will be much higher at lower temperatures (80-90% at 65 deg). Although a HPWH will remove moisture, it is also cooling simultaneously, so the net effect may not improve RH much. A dehumidifier works much better at driving down RH, as it doesn't cool the air (effectively heats the air, as a result of the process electricity).

Dana B said:

The unit has been running since late Thursday night and I have roughly 1/2 - 2/3 worth of water in the 5 gallon bucket that it's draining into.

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You should consider pumping this water out rather than leaving it in a bucket in the same room.
I have never really measured the humidity in my basement but aiming for 30 - 40% might be too low.
Anything in the 50's should be good and really this is not the hwhp's main purpose.
It sounds like you still have some fine tuning to do and it should then produce more condensate.
Are you running your house ac?
Our house is ~45% humidity at present and the a/c has rarely come on this year.

The 5 gallon bucket is just a temporary solution for drainage for the time being. I actually have to sink a sump pump in the basement and my plumber recommended placing it under the Nyletherm. I may do this.

I think when the hygrometer was reading 61% this morning the thermometer actually read 59 degrees. The basement does not feel dank but I would like to keep it dry enough for pellet storage and to prohibit mold, mildew etc etc I've never had mold mildew, issues in the past, at least that I could see. I have my rim joists spray foamed but not the walls.

We don't have central AC in the home. We have a few of the window style units which I don't like to turn on unless it's absolutely necessary because I'm cheap. However I do have two young children and I've never taken chances with their health so if it does get very hot their units are the first to get turned on while they're sleeping at night.

As for the amount of condensate being generated, we actually use relatively little hot water. It's usually my wife and I taking two showers in the morning and then doing dishes in the sink once or twice a day. The kids take a bath together two to three times a week. We generally use a cold/cold cycle for laundry. When my kids stain their clothing we'll fill up the sink as soon as possible with hot water and scrub it out. We also recently purchased a low flow shower head that does 1.5 gallons per minute. In troubleshooting the Nyletherm issue I actually timed my shower this morning. It's not something that I'd ever done before and I expected that I'd be in there for at least ten minutes as I shave in the shower in the morning. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that I got everything that needed to be done in just seven minutes. Tomorrow I'm going to be sitting outside the shower with the stopwatch timing the wife's shower. I'm sure she'll love that.

I came across this link that I found helpful: http://dpcalc.org/

Dana B said:

I think when the hygrometer was reading 61% this morning the thermometer actually read 59 degrees.

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At these conditions, your saturation temperature is just about 40 deg. It's going to be difficult for anything to remove much additional moisture with this low of a WB temperature. Not that you may or may not have a problem with mold/moisture in the basement, but if you did, the best way to improve the humidity condition is to warm the space.

I have a hpwh and at the present moment I am getting 1 1/2 gal of condensate removed from the basement at an average temp of 58*. In the summer you have to not think cheap and run hot h2o for everything. If you used to run a dehumidafier it's still free hot water. wash your clothes in hot. I actually brush my teeth in hot h2o in the summer. another thing is to bring in a source of heat like a freezer or beer fridge.

STIHLY DAN said:

I have a hpwh and at the present moment I am getting 1 1/2 gal of condensate removed from the basement at an average temp of 58*. In the summer you have to not think cheap and run hot h2o for everything. If you used to run a dehumidafier it's still free hot water. wash your clothes in hot. I actually brush my teeth in hot h2o in the summer. another thing is to bring in a source of heat like a freezer or beer fridge.

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1.5 gallons of condensate over what period of time? A day?

Yes, a day. I love that thing.

I don't get that much yet, but the summer is young. I did get a condensate pump, which has been sitting uninstalled for weeks.

So in the end, what is the total cost of materials for a set up on an existing 40 gallon indirect fired heater?

I'm hesitant to add it up for the Nyletherm. Not huge, but approaching a Geospring on sale including all the fittings, valves, tools, insulation, etc, nevermind a rebate that might be out there (LIPA?). You'd be dependent on it for all your hot water in summer? I'd look around for a good price on a Geospring for electric backup. That said, the Nyletherm is a nifty unit.

The Nyletherms are $365 delivered to your home. I just installed one for a local church. The fittings for tying to their tank was about $50 with PEX.
They had a volunteer electrician do the electric. It took me about 40 minutes.
The fittings and wiring would be the same for both units.

Most basements have a floor drain. I would prefer to not use a condensate pump unless really necessary. A unit sitting on a couple cinder blocks will provide enough elevation to drain to a floor drain with a garden hose connected to it.
My unit goes through about 40-50' and drains fine, 8" off the floor.

No rebates or tax credits for the Nyletherm.

But when the tank fails, the Nyletherm will still be usable. Unfortunately, the Geosprings and other all in one units become scrap when that happens.
Just sayin'.

I am still heating my water with wood BUT Thursday, as an insurance policy for my wife, I bought a 100 gallons of oil since the tank was on the letter "M" of empty.
That was $348.

Could of bought a Nyletherm!

Funny thing is the insurance policy failed.
I woke up this morning and the indirect circulator pump was running but the Wood Gun was below operating temp (140*) and switched over to the oil burner but the oil burner wasn't on and was down to 60*.

I hit the reset button and it tried to refire twice but wouldn't stay lit.
New load of oil must of kicked up some sludge and clogged the filter, fuel line or nozzle.

infinitymike said:

I am still heating my water with wood BUT Thursday, as an insurance policy for my wife, I bought a 100 gallons of oil since the tank was on the letter "M" of empty.
That was $348.

Could of bought a Nyletherm!

Funny thing is the insurance policy failed.
I woke up this morning and the indirect circulator pump was running but the Wood Gun was below operating temp (140*) and switched over to the oil burner but the oil burner wasn't on and was down to 60*.

I hit the reset button and it tried to refire twice but wouldn't stay lit.
New load of oil must of kicked up some sludge and clogged the filter, fuel line or nozzle.

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That post is almost everything that made me get rid of oil, all at once.

The simple high cost of it to start with, and a quite possible mis-fire when you do need it after periods of non-use. Throw in the periodic maintenance needed, and the potential liabilities with just storing the stuff - I'm some glad those days are over for me.

Even though I think I'd only be looking at no more than $100 in electricity to keep us in electric DHW for the months when I might want to not burn wood for it, it won't take too many hot humid days in a row here this summer to finally push me in the car for the 6 hour drive to Searsport, I don't think.