Geospring bad reviews

maple1 said:

He said it's in the drain.

If it's in the drain, it's only a restriction when you're draining the tank.

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I misread him, primarily because I think he is wrong. When adding a HPWH to an indirect system, such as an Amtrol Boilermate (likely the most popular indirect system of all time), there is usually a coaxial fitting installed at the dip tube, on top of the storage tank.

The primary problem here is that these systems are usually specified to run as direct systems, so adding them to an indirect system is always a kludge. What I've never been able to understand is why you could not just add it in series with the boiler, on the indirect side of the system. I'm guessing it's because they either don't deliver sufficient BTU's to work this way, or can't handle the potential heat from the boiler loop.

Joful said:

I misread him, primarily because I think he is wrong. When adding a HPWH to an indirect system, such as an Amtrol Boilermate (likely the most popular indirect system of all time), there is usually a coaxial fitting installed at the dip tube, on top of the storage tank.

The primary problem here is that these systems are usually specified to run as direct systems, so adding them to an indirect system is always a kludge. What I've never been able to understand is why you could not just add it in series with the boiler, on the indirect side of the system. I'm guessing it's because they either don't deliver sufficient BTU's to work this way, or can't handle the potential heat from the boiler loop.

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I don't think he was wrong. Pretty sure he has his tied to his drain.

There are lots of happy users of add-on heat pumps who have them hooked to indirect tanks - 'kludge' or not. They don't need to use coaxial fittings - I suspect those were intoduced to make installation easy for those tanks with drain ports. I would suspect the majority of installs don't use them, whether they have a drain port or not.

A series install on the boiler water side won't work well because HPHWs raise the temps of the water in stages, on multiple passes - no, they don't pump out the BTUs. Anyone expecting the heat generation capactity of a boiler or demand heater will be sorely disappointed. Although, some are adding HPWHs on to their hot water storage tanks to maintain their temps.

You should get one.

Seasoned Oak said:

What makes them so expensive. Is it just the fact that a poly tank cost so much more than a steel one? Home depot sells them but only carries 50 gal and larger. Way too big for me.

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I have no idea why they are so much more expensive than a standard steel hot water heater. Maybe because they are the only manufacturer.

I got mine because I saw what my parents have gone through. They have been through two steel tanked hot water heaters in the last 20 years. They are on natural gas so they have to use a steel tank. Since I am on electric I chose the Marathon. Do it once and do it right.

For the Marathon fans.....how old are the oldest units? Do we have data that they 'last forever'? Anyone dig through their internet reviews?

The two previous owners of my last house had been thru a new water heater every 3 - 6 years, for about as long as anyone could remember. Ultra, ultra hard water was to blame. When I bought the house, I noticed the brand-new water heater they had just installed a year earlier, and the PO told me to just plan on buying a new one every 4 years.

I installed a water softener, got the hard water in check, and never had a single water heater problem.

That's not the answer to everyone's troubles, but it is the answer to most water heater failures in the northeast.

maple1 said:

You should get one.

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I'd like to. I'm burning 1 gallon oil per day all summer for heating DHW, adding extra heat to the house which my AC systems must overcome, and then running two dehumidifiers in the basement. All summed, I could probably save close to $400 per month in summer, with a HPWH. However, I have hesitated making the switch for a few reasons:

1. Probably the biggest single reason, since really starting to learn about HPWH's a few weeks back, I've been in the middle of several other projects. We just completed a small expansion to the house, and are making preparations for our long list of summer projects (converting a barn to a heated shop, adding a second floor to the barn, planting 23 new trees, tearing out and rebuilding four windows on the house, rebuilding two old 1770's doors, renovating two rooms on our first floor, moving our office and den).

2. My boiler is as reliable as stone. It also has no trouble keeping up when we have three people showering at the same time as a clothes washer and dishwasher running.

3. Bad or mixed reviews on many HPWH units, such as the OP in this thread.

4. The perceived requirement for restrictive plumbing, such as this, from the Nyle install manual (again, think boilermate, not electric water heater):


I do see they publish an "alternate installation," shown with an electric water heater in the manual, and I see no reason why this shouldn't work with a boilermate:



However, I need to speak with someone at the manufacturer, to understand why this is the "alternate" plumbing, and not favored over the dip tube install. Seems to me this alternate scheme is the ONLY sensible scheme, but there must be a serious disadvantage in this scheme, for them to propose that restrictive coaxial diptube as the favored solution.

I think, but am not sure, that it is suggested that way to prevent cold water from 'short circuiting' thru the HPWH in periods of extended DHW use. If incoming water is cold from the well, the HPWH won't warm it enough with one pass, and the end result will be water that is not hot enough at the end use point. Using the dip gives more reserve capacity.

I think....

Makes sense, but I suspect there should be a dip tube already on either the hot or cold line to the water heater in that alternate install diagram. Moreover, the boilermates bring cold water into the bottom of the tank thru a diffuser, and take hot water off the top, so short circuiting should not be an issue under extended use with the alternate setup. I think...

woodgeek said:

For the Marathon fans.....how old are the oldest units? Do we have data that they 'last forever'? Anyone dig through their internet reviews?

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A friend of mine has had one for >10 years. Maybe even a little longer, I would have to ask him to be sure. The only issue he has had is a resistance element or two go bad. We both are on city water.

I had one go bad with my tank and they shipped me a new element and the tool to change it for free.

so, 10+ years. at least as long as a conventional tank with a heavy duty anode rod and a 12 year warranty.

Edit: and half the price:

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Residential-Electric/N-5yc1vZc1u1

woodgeek said:

so, 10+ years. at least as long as a conventional tank with a heavy duty anode rod and a 12 year warranty.

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No to start an arguement.

But I have never seen a conventional gas or electric hot water heater last over ten years. Our last one was 8 years old and it was starting to leak. I am on city water also.

I will pay double the price for a hot water heater any day of the week that I only have to install and mess with one time. Your time is worth $$$ also.

I have a conventional electric installed 1997, and showing no sign of troubles.

velvetfoot said:

I have the $238 model. With the Nyletherm assuming most of the heating duties, it will last forever.

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I believe standard electrical resistance HWHs can last a long time if maintained even under adverse operating conditions as evidenced by our 25 year old standard unit that's fed hard water.
We have to clean out the minerals, replace the lower element, and install a new anode every once in a while. I can see no reason for one of these units to develop a leak unless someone neglects to replace a worn out anode.
This is a great related reference site BTW: waterheaterrescue.com

I don't think it's a very common thing to replace an anode. I don't even know where I can buy one for mine - I didn't see any at the place where I bought the tank. I suspect it is an overlooked & neglected item for 90%+ of electric water heaters sold. 'Install & forget'.

(I'd have to drill a hole in a stair tread to get mine out - ooops...)

maple1 said:

I don't think it's a very common thing to replace an anode. I don't even know where I can buy one for mine - I didn't see any at the place where I bought the tank. I suspect it is an overlooked & neglected item for 90%+ of electric water heaters sold. 'Install & forget'.

(I'd have to drill a hole in a stair tread to get mine out - ooops...)

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They do make "flexible" replacement anodes. They look like a string of sausages.

Not to take this thread way off topic.

But in this day and age. Why are we even building electric hot water heaters out of steel that will eventually fail due to rust ?

I am pretty sure I know the reason they still build them out of steel. Too sell more replacements to folks who set and forget it.

King Gillette was a brilliant man.

sloeffle said:

Not to take this thread way off topic.

But in this day and age. Why are we even building electric hot water heaters out of steel that will eventually fail due to rust ?

I am pretty sure I know the reason they still build them out of steel. Too sell more replacements to folks who set and forget it.

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The steel gets attacked by galvanic action, and the anode rod prevents the galvanic action as long as it exists. The major difference between the 5 year and 12 year models is the mass of the anode. If you are ready to replace it every 5 or 10 years, an easy DIY job I hear, then a conventional tank should last a very long time. Assuming that the element swaps on the conventional and poly tanks are a similar hassle.

Didn't mean to be azz, just given the amount of love Marathons get around here, I was hoping for a long-term testimonial that might justify their cost and energy expense.

sloeffle said:

Not to take this thread way off topic.

But in this day and age. Why are we even building electric hot water heaters out of steel that will eventually fail due to rust ?

I am pretty sure I know the reason they still build them out of steel. Too sell more replacements to folks who set and forget it.

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Aren't the geospring HPWHs supplied with a stainless steel tank? I also think it is crazy to use thin mild steel lined with GLASS! to make a water tank. One little chip in that glass and the protection is gone.

I think the 'glass' they refer to is porcelain. Like an old bathtub.

woodgeek said:

For the Marathon fans.....how old are the oldest units? Do we have data that they 'last forever'? Anyone dig through their internet reviews?

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Marathon has only been making these plastic (actually some sort of wound laminate) tanks for "nearly 25 years". They based their design on the water softener tanks.

I installed an iron filter recently with a similarly constructed plastic tank and I love that it won't rust out. The marathon uses all brass, replacable nipples and the dip tube is not made of steel either, I've heard of them breaking off. The marathon does not use an anode rod of course so there is no risk of that foul reaction with iron or sulfur that makes that rotten egg smell, plus no need to replace it. The elements and controls are similar to a standard water heater. The value is with the tank material and confidence that it will not leak.

woodgeek said:

I think the 'glass' they refer to is porcelain. Like an old bathtub.

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I was flushing out my RV water heater and found some chips of the glass. It feels like a ceramic, bluish, like what chips out of a cast iron sink. Isn't that enamel? You've got to figure that the glass is added before the fittings are connected and that when a pipe is threaded into the tank that there is some spalling at the threaded bungs.

woodgeek said:

Didn't mean to be azz, just given the amount of love Marathons get around here, I was hoping for a long-term testimonial that might justify their cost and energy expense.

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No offense taken. I have always enjoyed your posts and point of view.

I am unfortunately part of the set and forget it crowd when it comes to DHW. So the Marathon is a perfect fit for me.

Joful said:

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However, I need to speak with someone at the manufacturer, to understand why this is the "alternate" plumbing, and not favored over the dip tube install. Seems to me this alternate scheme is the ONLY sensible scheme, but there must be a serious disadvantage in this scheme, for them to propose that restrictive coaxial diptube as the favored solution.

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It appears that in the "alternate" plumbing method that the water only would get one pass through the HP which only increases the temperature a minimal amount in one pass ~ HOW ON EARTH can they get hot water this way?