Newb looking for advice on new stove

dgwren · May 25, 2014

I've been lurking and reading on here for a couple of months, and I'm already on my way to becoming a wood hoarder. Last winter's experience burning green wood in an open fireplace convinced us that we need dry wood and a wood stove insert. I'm Oxford, MS, which may seem pretty far south to be worried about heat, but we had a real winter this time around and spent a LOT of money on electricity while still not feeling warm (heat pump). My house is about 2300 sq. ft. on one level (rough sketches included), built in 1973, and has lots of doors and rooms. The room that my hearth is in is a 24x12 kitchen, and it is connected to our living/dining room by a door and 3x6' opening above a kitchen counter. The living room is about 24x15' and has a 12' vaulted ceiling. The rest of the house has 8' ceilings. My fireplace is pretty big: 43X27", 25" deep at the bottom and 18.5" at the top.

Before a trip to a local Buck dealer, I was pretty much set on a mid-size non-cat heater, but the dealer said they have had very good feedback on the Buck 91, which is a pretty big catalytic heater. Their non-cat heater (Buck 81) of the same size is about the same price ($2450), so I don't think they were pushing a certain heater to maximize profit. These folks have been in business for 40 years, and they heat their house and their showroom with wood.

Anyway, I have some specific questions :

1. Would a Buck 91 drive us out of our kitchen while we freeze in other rooms? We have a little practice using fans to move heat/cold around our house.

2. Should we just get a smaller stove and resign ourselves to heating the rest of the house by other means? (while the electric strip on our heat pump makes our meter spin like crazy)

3. Does a catalytic heater need less in the way of chimney lining? The dealer said that only a starter pipe and a blockoff plate would be needed, and it should draw because of the high temp of the gases exiting the cats. (My flue is 14.5X10.5"). If we get the 81, it will cost about $500 more, at least, because of the definite need for a chimney liner.

4. Does the longer burn time and efficiency of a catalytic heater offset the headache of replacing the combustor? If it's $300 every 10 years, it may not be a big deal. I like the idea of a 10 hour burn without adding wood.

Anyway, I've already learned a ton on here, but I feel like I'm at an impasse in the decision process. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

BrotherBart · May 25, 2014

With that short of a chimney and the relatively cooler exhaust from a cat stove I would consider a liner a must. That cat needs a good draft pulling through it to work.

Heating that layout is going to be a real challenge, as you know. That big honker in that room it gonna have it right hot in there to heat the rest of the rooms, especially the master bedroom.

webby3650 · May 25, 2014

You definitely want to have a full liner install. That is a short chimney for any stove. It's odd that they recommended it for a non-cat and not for a cat. That makes no sense.

Did they explain to you that if you chose the block off plate and a short pipe option that every year the entire stove must be pulled out into the kitchen for cleaning? If its lined properly, the stove will never need removed for cleaning.

begreen · May 26, 2014

Have you considered an alternative location like the living room with a new and taller chimney?

dgwren · May 26, 2014

begreen said:
Have you considered an alternative location like the living room with a new and taller chimney?

We haven't considered another location, since we already have a masonry fireplace. I don't think that we want the added expense of making another spot safe for a wood heater.

begreen · May 26, 2014

My advice then would be to size the stove for the area that is to be heated. In this case that will primarily be the kitchen. Heat circulation could be improved by putting in a ducted fan that intakes from the end of the hallway near the MBr door and outputs into the kitchen. If that is done, a larger stove may be possible. The 80ZC would probably be my choice in Buck stoves for this location. As others have noted, a full liner from the insert to the chimney top (positive connect) is going to be essential as will be having a good supply of fully seasoned wood.

For further info download the Buck stove manuals from their website and note their flue recommendations. Look under positive connection. This is from the Buck 80 and 91 manual:

It may be necessary to positive connect this unit to enhance the performance, if any of the following conditions exists:

... 6. Chimney that does not exceed 12’

Grisu · May 26, 2014

I would also take a look at the catalytic Blazeking Princess insert. From many reports here, Blazeking's burn rate regulation exceeds the one of the Buck. If your hearth is deep enough you could also think about the Woodstock Progress Hybrid stove with the short leg kit. It won't need a blower and also has a cooktop if you have power outages sometimes.

I would also be careful sizing an insert/stove just because the last winter was exceptionally cold. How well insulated is your house? How much electricity do you usually use for heating in the winter? When you do a lot of cooking and backing in the kitchen does it get very warm compared with the rest of the house or does the heat travel?

Bigg_Redd · May 26, 2014

Here are some random thoughts

The Buck91 is a big stove with an oddly shaped firebox - that is to say I'm pretty sure a lot of it's 4cf firebox is not useable

Mississippi winters (with very rare exceptions) are mild. In spite of the Buck91's oddly shaped firebox I'm guessing it'll be too much stove 99% of the time.

As for blasting you out of your kitchen - that is a function more of your insulation than your stove.

dgwren · May 26, 2014

begreen said:
My advice then would be to size the stove for the area that is to be heated. In this case that will primarily be the kitchen. Heat circulation could be improved by putting in a ducted fan that intakes from the end of the hallway near the MBr door and outputs into the kitchen. If that is done, a larger stove may be possible. The 80ZC would probably be my choice in Buck stoves for this location. As others have noted, a full liner from the insert to the chimney top (positive connect) is going to be essential as will be having a good supply of fully seasoned wood.

For further info download the Buck stove manuals from their website and note their flue recommendations. Look under positive connection. This is from the Buck 80 and 91 manual:

It may be necessary to positive connect this unit to enhance the performance, if any of the following conditions exists:

... 6. Chimney that does not exceed 12’

I've resigned myself to having to line the chimney, so now I'm just trying to decide on cat/non-cat and model. I had not looked at the Buck Model 80, and it seems like it might be good option that is smaller than the 91/81. I've also been looking at the Model 74, but I it doesn't look like N/S loading would work very well. We only have a couple of dealers around here, so, unless I order online, there aren't many brands available.

dgwren · May 26, 2014

Grisu said:
I would also take a look at the catalytic Blazeking Princess insert. From many reports here, Blazeking's burn rate regulation exceeds the one of the Buck. If your hearth is deep enough you could also think about the Woodstock Progress Hybrid stove with the short leg kit. It won't need a blower and also has a cooktop if you have power outages sometimes.

I would also be careful sizing an insert/stove just because the last winter was exceptionally cold. How well insulated is your house? How much electricity do you usually use for heating in the winter? When you do a lot of cooking and backing in the kitchen does it get very warm compared with the rest of the house or does the heat travel?

I don't think my house is overly well insulated. The kitchen gets hot in the summer, but we never thought it was too hot in the winter, even with a roaring fire in the fireplace. I didn't check KWH, but we had one $390 electricity bill, and that was heating to 68 in the day and 62 at night with some help from the fireplace. I'll take a look at the Blazeking stuff, but I don't know if anybody around here carries their stuff.

Grisu · May 26, 2014

dgwren said:
I don't think my house is overly well insulated. The kitchen gets hot in the summer, but we never thought it was too hot in the winter, even with a roaring fire in the fireplace. I didn't check KWH, but we had one $390 electricity bill, and that was heating to 68 in the day and 62 at night with some help from the fireplace. I'll take a look at the Blazeking stuff, but I don't know if anybody around here carries their stuff.

The "roaring fire" did probably cost you more heat than it actually provided. Masonry fireplaces draw warm combustion air from the other rooms and send it up the chimney. That air will be made up by cold outside air being sucked into the house. While you get radiant heat in front of the fireplace, you actually cool down the rest of the house.

For an estimate of your heating load, we would need the actual kWh used. Let's say your rate is about 10 cents per kWh that would be 4000 kWh used. Now the heatpump makes things a bit difficult as usually its 3x more efficient meaning you would have used 12,000 kWh in heat. However, at low temps it works more like a standard electric heater meaning 1 kWh in equals 1 kWh in heat or 4000 kWh total. Let's take the mean and assume 8,000 kWh used for heat. That's ~27 mill. BTU in one month or 900,000 BTU per day. That would be a pretty substantial load; you would probably need to burn about 8 cu ft of mixed hardwood to get that kind of heat. A stove with a 3 cu ft firebox would not be too much. However, a lot of rough estimates went in there so take those numbers with caution. Plus: Was that the coldest month last winter? I would hope that winter was an exception and would not take it as a guideline. During a normal winter you may need quite a bit less than that.

Blazeking has a dealer locator on their website: http://blazeking.com/storefinder/embed.php Still, the closest one to you may well be in Kansas City.
Woodstock ships directly from the factory. If you don't want to do the install yourself you can always hire a sweep to do it for you: http://www.csia.org/search or http://www.ncsg.org/search Same would be true for any stove you may order over the internet.

dgwren said:
I've resigned myself to having to line the chimney, so now I'm just trying to decide on cat/non-cat and model. I had not looked at the Buck Model 80, and it seems like it might be good option that is smaller than the 91/81. I've also been looking at the Model 74, but I it doesn't look like N/S loading would work very well. We only have a couple of dealers around here, so, unless I order online, there aren't many brands available.

I have not seen the Buck models in person but in the website it says for those stoves they need an 8" liner which would be an added expense and also limit your choices if you want to change out the stove later. If you would like a N/S loading insert that also takes a 6" liner I would take a look at the Pacific Energy Summit. It's unique baffle system allows some of the longest burn times for a non-cat stove and does also provide strong draft even with a short chimney. I have its smaller brother the PE Super on a 13' flue and have no draft problems at all. You may need an oversized surround, though.

begreen · May 26, 2014

Good points on the larger Bucks, they are 8" flue. One minor correction on the Summit. The Pacific Summit's baffle design does not increase draft. The stove draws air a little easier. I'm not positive why but a guess is because the secondary air supply manifold is a direct shot to the baffle with no turns other than at the baffle. I think that the shorter more direct secondary path offers less resistance than in other stoves, thus it can work with a bit weaker draft. That said, I have seen only one case of actual use where I have seen this, but it is in a similar install situation as the OP's with a 90 going into a 12' chimney.

dgwren · May 27, 2014

Based on the helpful comments that I've seen so far, I think I'll look into a PE Super. There is a dealer about 150 miles from here (Jackson, MS), and I have an acquaintance who speaks well of them. With the Super and a full 6" liner, I wonder if I need a rigid pipe extension on the top of my chimney? Also, can 16" wood be load N/S with the Super?

Grisu · May 27, 2014

dgwren said:
Based on the helpful comments that I've seen so far, I think I'll look into a PE Super. There is a dealer about 150 miles from here (Jackson, MS), and I have an acquaintance who speaks well of them. With the Super and a full 6" liner, I wonder if I need a rigid pipe extension on the top of my chimney? Also, can 16" wood be load N/S with the Super?

The Super is a N/S loading stove that fits 18" to 19" splits. However, it only has a 2 cu ft firebox and will probably be at best a supplemental heater for you. For reference, my Super insert heats about 1300 sqft of a moderately insulated home in Vermont. When the outside temps go down into the single digits, I need to supplement some heat. It does not overheat our living room although our layout is not the most open one either. Given the size of your home I would go for the Summit. You can always make smaller fires in there when it is not that cold outside.

Bigg_Redd · May 27, 2014

dgwren said:
Based on the helpful comments that I've seen so far, I think I'll look into a PE Super. There is a dealer about 150 miles from here (Jackson, MS), and I have an acquaintance who speaks well of them. With the Super and a full 6" liner, I wonder if I need a rigid pipe extension on the top of my chimney? Also, can 16" wood be load N/S with the Super?

You're on the right track with the Super. All stoves are some sort of compromise. If you buy a stove with a historically low temp cold snap in mind you will have bought too much stove for the rest of the 99% of the time. If you buy a stove that works perfectly 99% you might have to wear a sweater during very rare cold snaps. Also, keeping a small fire going in a big stove is much easier in theory than in practice.

Extensions are a strange animal. My stove worked just fine with a too-short chimney, but worked way better once it was brought up to code.

You can load 18" N/S if you want. I cut 16" for easier reloads.

dgwren · May 27, 2014

Well, I checked into both the PE Super and the Summit. They were priced at $2685 (Super) and $3145 (Summit) with me picking them up, which is a 300 mile round trip. I assume it will take at least another $500 for a liner and other fittings. That's a bit more than I had hoped to spend. Are the PE inserts enough better to justify the cost over a Buck Model 85? The 85 is a non-cat stove with a nearly square 2.4 cu. ft. firebox that calls for a 6" flue, and it's available from a dealer about 50 miles away who gave me a quote of $1995 for the stove plus $1000 for installation and full chimney liner. That puts me a little over $3k for stove, installation, and delivery.

What do you guys think about a Buck model 85? I'm leaning towards paying for installation since I'm pretty new wood heaters.

Woody Stover · May 27, 2014

I'm only familiar with the Buck 91, but it's a quality stove and built like a tank. If you are handy, installing a liner isn't too tough provided the install is pretty straightforward. Everything I've installed sits on the hearth and is rear-vented into an existing masonry fireplace, not an option with a top-vent-only stove. With your layout, I would go with a stove with a blower, or insert, to help move the warm air. I would also want a quiet blower. With the stove back in the fireplace, you can top-vent if you have enough room to connect the liner with the stove in place. You can install a block-off plate to keep more heat in the room. If your existing clay liner is a straight shot up, you may be able to install rigid liner sections instead of a flex liner, which may be a little cheaper. Time invested now researching all your options will increase your chances of being happy with your choice for a long time to come.

Grisu · May 27, 2014

dgwren said:
Well, I checked into both the PE Super and the Summit. They were priced at $2685 (Super) and $3145 (Summit) with me picking them up, which is a 300 mile round trip. I assume it will take at least another $500 for a liner and other fittings. That's a bit more than I had hoped to spend. Are the PE inserts enough better to justify the cost over a Buck Model 85? The 85 is a non-cat stove with a nearly square 2.4 cu. ft. firebox that calls for a 6" flue, and it's available from a dealer about 50 miles away who gave me a quote of $1995 for the stove plus $1000 for installation and full chimney liner. That puts me a little over $3k for stove, installation, and delivery.

What do you guys think about a Buck model 85? I'm leaning towards paying for installation since I'm pretty new wood heaters.

I don't know the Buck so I cannot comment on its advantages or disadvantages compared with the PEs. I don't remember reading much negative feedback about Buck stoves. They certainly seem to be very durable. You could open another thread with the stove in the title and see if some actual users respond.

$1000 for liner and installation is a good quote. Try to find out which liner they want to use. Also, have your chimney swept and inspected. If the clay liner/brickwork is not in a good condition you should put an insulated liner in there. That will be better in any case as it is safer and will draft better. Your flue seems plenty wide to allow an insulated liner. Consider also a block-off plate or a lot of heat will go up the chimney next to the liner: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/making_a_block_off_plate/

Bigg_Redd · May 27, 2014

dgwren said:
Well, I checked into both the PE Super and the Summit. They were priced at $2685 (Super) and $3145 (Summit) with me picking them up, which is a 300 mile round trip. I assume it will take at least another $500 for a liner and other fittings. That's a bit more than I had hoped to spend. Are the PE inserts enough better to justify the cost over a Buck Model 85? The 85 is a non-cat stove with a nearly square 2.4 cu. ft. firebox that calls for a 6" flue, and it's available from a dealer about 50 miles away who gave me a quote of $1995 for the stove plus $1000 for installation and full chimney liner. That puts me a little over $3k for stove, installation, and delivery.

What do you guys think about a Buck model 85? I'm leaning towards paying for installation since I'm pretty new wood heaters.

I'm a Kool-Aid drinking PE guy but I dunno if I'd drive 150 miles and pay $700 more for the privilege.

jolby · May 29, 2014

I have the Buck 81 but would rather have gotten the 85 since I don't like the little windows on each side, that I don't clean, so they stay black. Other than that they are the same stove.

The ceramic baffle on the newer stoves should be better than the metal one that I have which warps.

I can go 8-10 hours between loadings heating 1/2 your area, but I usually cut the fan (kind of loud) off when the stove temp drops below 500. I put the therm midway above the door which seems to be the hottest spot

I liked the PE's also from all the good reviews here but shipping made me look closer to home.

The Blazeking Princess tempted me too, but at a $1000 more and 75 miles or so distance just went with the guy close by.

Good luck with your decision

dgwren · May 29, 2014

jolby said:
I have the Buck 81 but would rather have gotten the 85 since I don't like the little windows on each side, that I don't clean, so they stay black. Other than that they are the same stove.

The ceramic baffle on the newer stoves should be better than the metal one that I have which warps.

I can go 8-10 hours between loadings heating 1/2 your area, but I usually cut the fan (kind of loud) off when the stove temp drops below 500. I put the therm midway above the door which seems to be the hottest spot

I liked the PE's also from all the good reviews here but shipping made me look closer to home.

The Blazeking Princess tempted me too, but at a $1000 more and 75 miles or so distance just went with the guy close by.

Good luck with your decision

Thanks for the feedback! We've just about decided to go with the Buck 85. Price plus proximity to dealer make it hard to pass up.

I'm having my chimney swept on Monday, so I guess we'll wait until after that and decide what to do. I may study up on adding a ducted fan in the attic to move air around the house, too.

jross47 · May 29, 2014

Some great advice has been given! I just want to add one thing. Keep an eye open for used stoves that are not too far away or too old. I've landed some bargains on craig's list for friends that have saved a bundle. Pacific Energy, Regency, Quadrafire and jotul are my favorite non-cat stoves, and there are no catalyst's to change after 3 years (for you maybe 5 years). Other wise I think everything has been discussed including the liner. I own a quad 4100i and I love it but it's a journey and you will find your favorite in due time. Your winters are short but I would still collect at least 3 cords of DRY wood. Good luck. JR

mellow · Jun 3, 2014

I hate to even mention it but sometimes Buck dealers sell Appalachian stoves as well, the Bay 52 on an insulated 8" liner would do you well, the bay 52 can be run on 6" but on that short of a chimney I wouldn't recommend it. It is a 2.4 cu ft catalytic stove. You can't beat the price on them as they are usually around $1600-$1800 but deals can be had for less.

I would stick with a cat stove for the long slow low BTU burns that won't chase you out of the stove room.

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