Tribute to the recent fallen..

begreen said:

If that was so Japan would have one of the highest massacre rates and South Korea would be off the charts. Instead it is quite the opposite. There was a local program on this topic. The numbers don't show a correlation between video games and violent crime, though many seem to think so.

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in fact, some PTSD treatments now incorporate violent video games. It seems "reliving" the trauma in a safe setting reduces the anxiety.

begreen said:

This has happened 74 times in schools since Sandy Hook. It won't stop until collectively we all say - enough!
l

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then what? there is no feasible solution.

begreen said:

This has happened 74 times in schools since Sandy Hook. It won't stop until collectively we all say - enough!

http://www.king5.com/news/local/74-school-shootings-since-Sandy-Hook-262629761.html

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That's what they come up with as "solutions":
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ented-to-protect-children-from-shootings.html

When I was in school in south Florida in the 80's we had two uniformed and armed cops in the school all day every day. We entered and left through the front entrance as the rest of the property was surrounded with a ten foot tall fence with barbed wire on top. When we were moving out of there they were in talks about installing metal detectors at the entrance.

Was it ideal, no, did it do a good job at keeping the peace, yes, would it prevent what we're seeing today in schools, most likely.

Bad stuff and copy cats have always been around, the new trend we're seeing is 24/7 media coverage of every little thing. Even if it were one murder a day in this country it would be on your TV all day until the next one came along. Turn off your TV's, hug your kids, check their schools and find out what their security protocols are, and get involved if you don't like it.

That makes sense John, to have security in schools, just like in a court house.

Richard

Was that a public school?

Blurts will be there with a knife, gun, club or some other weapon. I say guard the kids just like we guard our money.

mass_burner said:

in fact, some PTSD treatments now incorporate violent video games. It seems "reliving" the trauma in a safe setting reduces the anxiety.

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It is called systemic desensitization ... it is a technique that is also used with commercial airline pilots. The re-occurance of stressful malfunctions (or multiple malfunctions) in flight sims effectively inoculates anxiety when faced with the real situation (that's how the pilot was able to keep cool under pressure and "land" on the river).

webbie said:

The real fix - IMHO - is to avoid the causes in the first place.
When it comes to mental health, you can't fix all of it because some is genetic. But it may be possible to create conditions where less of it expresses itself in a violent fashion.

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A family friend who was a GP decided he wanted to work in the psychiatric field. I don't think he made it through the additional training as he was so discouraged. Mental health issues cannot be "fixed" like a large number of health problems i.e. cast a broken bone, surgical intervention, etc. Success in mental health is measured in incredibly small steps to make the patient's life "more normal". The other part of the problem is that the patient stops taking medications because they feel better and are unaware of the return of the downward spiral.

There is truth to genetics playing a part in health issues - including mental health. We lost a nephew to suicide - his birth Mom, half-sister, grandmother and great-grandmother all have (had) anxiety and depression issues. He tried a large variety of medications, electro-shock but nothing helped control the anxiety - he said the depression part was easy in comparison. There is also a greater stigma placed on men with mental health issues and that added a further burden to his condition. From our limited experience, there still isn't enough help out there. Unfortunately, while the medical profession has made great strides in understanding the larger picture of how the body works, they still have not worked out the subtleties or the interaction among different systems within the body. Doctors are taught to focus on one system in isolation but fail to understand how a disruption in one system can create a domino effect into others.

valley ranch said:

Was that a public school?

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Yep, public middle school in Ft. Lauderdale FL. It was fairly segregated into three groups that didn't particularly get along VERY different than New England.

begreen said:

Treating the symptoms is one solution, but it doesn't fix the problem. Maybe it would be better to look at and understand why the US has such a high incidence of these shooting?

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It's not just in the U.S. China has seen an increase in mass stabbings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–12)

If you google this stuff you'll find it's really world wide, but our media just covers the stories that boost ratings and revenue, not necessarily the whole news. Why do some stories make national news for years (just saw one on a little girl that went missing years ago overseas while on vacation) while others get a 5 second spot on a local station and are never covered again (local girl went missing a year ago, long since forgotten)?

Lake Girl raises a lot of valid points with human behavior and inherited traits, the mind is an amazing thing. My ex decided to go on in her adult education after earning her law degree and resumed her earlier studies in psychology. It was extremely frustrating for her, having no black and white answers to anything, being able to read both sides of an argument and being able to fully agree with each conflicting side once you looked over all the points that were made. It's the human mind, I highly doubt we'll ever have even a thorough understanding of it.

Maybe we need to start keeping score again in kids sports, letting Tommy beat the snot out of Billy so they can make up and be friends again the next day, take the helmets off and let them see how much it hurts when you experience pain. I have no idea. The only real change I've seen since I was raised (I had Nintendo and shoot em up games then too) is that we seem to be shielding kids from life more than we ever used to.

I'm just looking at it like any other issue, there's a problem, it's increased since "X", what factors have changed prior to "X" that led to this increase?

all species are not perfect, especially humans. reminds me a Sandburg poem:

Why is the sun a red ball in the six o’clock mist?
Why is the moon a tumbling chimney?… tumbling … tumbling … “I’d give you the shirt off my back”
… And I’ll kill you if my head goes wrong.

mass_burner said:

all species are not perfect, especially humans. reminds me a Sandburg poem:

Why is the sun a red ball in the six o’clock mist?
Why is the moon a tumbling chimney?… tumbling … tumbling … “I’d give you the shirt off my back”
… And I’ll kill you if my head goes wrong.

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Reminds me of a Procol Harum verse....

"My old dog's a good old dog
My old man's a silly old sod
The human face is a terrible place
Choose your own examples"

I'm guessing you/yours have a plan.

But it doesn't only happen in schools, movie theaters, malls, businesses, etc. Can we make everywhere and everyone safe all the time?

Disenfranchisement from society ... anger and frustration with their life finally finds a target they feel are to blame? How do you fix internal thought processes that derail? For the young man from Moncton, NS, his parents went to the police prior to the shootings to seek help for their son. Since there was no direct stated threat, there was nothing the police could do at that time. Unless there is a stated threat to themselves or others, psych evaluation isn't an option. He's getting that now but too late for the three Mounties who have died and their families and the two that were injured.

Article on "school shootings" ... http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/06/how_many_school_shooting_incid.html
While you may be able to secure the building, what about the entire school property? Do you lose more personal freedoms in return for security? Or is security just an illusion?

An interview with Peter Lanza, father of Adam Lanza who was responsible for the Sandy Hook deaths. Wow, a whole lot was going on there...
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/03/17/140317fa_fact_solomon?currentPage=all

Lake Girl said:

Or is security just an illusion?

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yes. Unless you live in North Korea. But then there's that eating grass thing.

BG, I put the China link in there not to distract from what is going on here at home; but because you eluded that this was unique to the US, when in fact it is not.

I gave no shoulder shrug, I merely suggested that maybe people should look at and focus on what they can control instead of wishing for complete control over everything which it seems you think can be accomplished through legislation?

None of the above is a brush off to the brutality of murder, however, overall, violent crimes are decreasing not increasing. Again, 24/7 media will have you thinking the end is near, but if murder is how it ends for you or me our odds are improving daily.

begreen said:

The murder rate has been decreasing and this is a good trend, but the number of mass shootings at educational institutions is recently on the rise. That's definitely not what I want to see. I don't advocate complete control at all, though it has worked in some countries. Sorry if it came off that way. What I would like to see are some common sense measures and a lot more attention paid to mental health issues. I agree the media is part of the issue. They tend to sensationalize and overdramatize situations in their endless quest for ears and eyeballs to satisfy their Neilsen ratings and boost ad dollars. That should stop.

Interestingly, yesterday I heard from a friend's 21 yr old daughter that is currently living in Morocco. They don't allow hand guns or rifles there. She asked her friends there what would happen if someone just pulled a pulled out a gun in a cafe or on street and they looked at her like she was crazy because it's not even a possibility. If there is one gun related homicide in a year it's a big deal there.

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Yep. Shootings are rare there but they do happen, much more common, and more so than here, bombings.

"On April 28, 2011, in Marrakesh, a terrorist detonated a remote-controlled bomb in the Argana Café in Jamaa El Fnaa square, a well known landmark in tourist guidebooks. The attack killed 17 people and injured 23, predominantly Western tourists. The bomber was apprehended within a week and was sentenced to death."

There are several others to go with that.

Again, nuts everywhere. Seems killers generally don't follow the laws either. Go figure.

We agree it would be nice to see an end to these tragic events. Whether or not it will happen or how to get there is a debate I'd rather have in person, as I'm sure we'll never agree but will all raise valid points.
No sense in sending this thread to the ash can over it.

Let's hope it's a long time before a mass killing makes headlines again.

Cheers.

John.

You guys earned it Andrew.
Thanks and be safe.

Warm_in_NH said:

You guys earned it Andrew.
Thanks and be safe.

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Yes, the same well wishes from Nfld.

ChipTam