Trouble firing up Froling

stefan66 · Jun 21, 2014

Just finished installing a Froling FHG 30 boiler.
First fire was as per instructions and everything was running fine.
After about 1 1/2 hours, loaded 4 more pieces of wood, closed
the door, everything good.
Then I turned my circulator to medium speed and about 20 minutes
later I heard the induced draft fan shut down.
I thought that's weird. The boiler temp. was only about 160F..
Then I noticed the pump stopped also.. Oh boy here we go.
Scramble to pull wires from transformer. Put plug on pump.
Plug in pump. OK now I can cool off the boiler.

Troubleshooting later --- Transformer for pump was too small.
New one on order. be here Monday
Problem is.......Now the ID fan wont turn on.

I should say the fan wont turn, Since testing the fan indicates that there
is power at the fan (2 legs of 120V)

Now when I turn on the boiler it indicates the fan as running
Open the door and the fan runs at 100%
Every indication that its fine, except the fan is NOT running.
After about 10 minutes the control board shows a fault.
The fault is "Fan not turning in spite of full activation"

I've brought the fan to the suppliers place and plugged it into
his boiler and it runs fine.

I'm confused . I get power at the fan . But the fan no turn

Edit. The overheat circuit did trip. It is re-set.

__dan · Jun 21, 2014

Just guessing but if you switched the pump speed while it was running, it probably didn't like that electrically. Depends if the switch does an open transition. If switching the pump gave a transient, you could have blown a foil on the control board. The would be the most fragile part of the circuit. Look at the pump instructions to see if it says do not change speed under load.

Don't know why you would have a transformer between the pump and the Froling. The Froling has whip for the pump. Don't know the voltage without checking.

The fan has a lot of wires going to it, an extraordinary number. I did not look into it but it's enough wires for 3 phase with a speed sensing feedback. It looked really fancy. I would need to look at a a wiring diagram but I would not automatically think the fan is 120 v single phase.

stefan66 · Jun 21, 2014

__dan said:
Just guessing but if you switched the pump speed while it was running, it probably didn't like that electrically. Depends if the switch does an open transition. If switching the pump gave a transient, you could have blown a foil on the control board. The would be the most fragile part of the circuit. Look at the pump instructions to see if it says do not change speed under load.

Don't know why you would have a transformer between the pump and the Froling. The Froling has whip for the pump. Don't know the voltage without checking.

The fan has a lot of wires going to it, an extraordinary number. I did not look into it but it's enough wires for 3 phase with a speed sensing feedback. It looked really fancy. I would need to look at a a wiring diagram but I would not automatically think the fan is 120 v single phase.

Thanks for the reply Dan

The Boiler is sending out 240V for the pump. I'm using a 120V pump.
Therefore I need the transformer.
Whats that about a whip for the Pump?

The fan is 3 phase with speed sensing.

__dan · Jun 21, 2014

Is it working now or still have trouble?

Whip is a short prewired lead of armored cable for the boiler circ connection.

3 phase with speed sensing would be really overboard, gold plated, but I can see the safety aspect of the speed feedback. 3 phase would mean an onboard vfd and there may be a way to check the diode junctions of the vfd, but I'm getting ahead of myself. I would look at the pump literature first to see if it warns of switching speed while powered, and if so it would be possible to blow a foil on the control board that also affects the ID fan. Everything else in the circuit is sturdier and will take some hits without damage.

Instead of a transformer for the pump you could use a relay with a 240 v coil and switch the 120 v to the pump. The small circ relays on the control board are usually the first to go and the transformer could have a higher inductive inrush and switching transient. I would have to look to see if the Froling output relays are socket mounted for easy changing. Soldered on relays would mean trouble for a bad relay.

stefan66 · Jun 21, 2014

__dan said:
Is it working now or still have trouble?

Whip is a short prewired lead of armored cable for the boiler circ connection.

3 phase with speed sensing would be really overboard, gold plated, but I can see the safety aspect of the speed feedback. 3 phase would mean an onboard vfd and there may be a way to check the diode junctions of the vfd, but I'm getting ahead of myself. I would look at the pump literature first to see if it warns of switching speed while powered, and if so it would be possible to blow a foil on the control board that also affects the ID fan. Everything else in the circuit is sturdier and will take some hits without damage.

Instead of a transformer for the pump you could use a relay with a 240 v coil and switch the 120 v to the pump. The small circ relays on the control board are usually the first to go and the transformer could have a higher inductive inrush and switching transient. I would have to look to see if the Froling output relays are socket mounted for easy changing. Soldered on relays would mean trouble for a bad relay.

Everything was running fine for 20 min after switching speed.
First I think I need to be able to fire the pump (new transformer)
Maybe the boiler knows there is no capability to pump right now.
I can only hope I didn't hurt the board.

__dan · Jun 21, 2014

I looked at the Taco instructions for a 3 speed circ and there's no warning about switching speed while powered.

I'm also thinking that if the foil was blown the pump would not get power also, but you don't indicate that as the problem. If the pump runs you should be OK on that count. New electronics have a 24 hr burn in time where if it going to fail early, it may fail in the first 24 hrs, so it could still be the control board.

If the display says the ID fan is running, you would want to check the output at the control board. Sounds like it would be a warranty issue also, so you would want the dealer to advise you.

jebatty · Jun 22, 2014

I hope you don't have a controller problem that is attributable to anything you did. Reminds me of when I installed our new electric oven, 240V. I checked the wiring at least 3 times, or at least I thought I did, to make sure the two line feeds, neutral and ground were wired correctly. Turned on the oven, the control panel lit up as expected, and then a "pop," panel went dark, and the smell of burned electronics filled the kitchen. I had erroneously connected one of the line feed wires to neutral. Not covered by warranty due to my error. An expensive day.

jebatty · Jun 22, 2014

I'm confused by your reference to a 120v pump. The Froling requires a 240v supply and is furnished with a loading unit (circulator) that also is 240v to the best of my knowledge. What pump are you talking about that requires 120v? The system I work with has zone control 24vac coil switching relays to operate 120vac system circulators. Exactly how did you wire the Froling and the pump you are talking about?

skfire · Jun 22, 2014

stefan66 said:
Just finished installing a Froling FHG 30 boiler.
First fire was as per instructions and everything was running fine.
After about 1 1/2 hours, loaded 4 more pieces of wood, closed
the door, everything good.
Then I turned my circulator to medium speed and about 20 minutes
later I heard the induced draft fan shut down.
I thought that's weird. The boiler temp. was only about 160F..
Then I noticed the pump stopped also.. Oh boy here we go.
Scramble to pull wires from transformer. Put plug on pump.
Plug in pump. OK now I can cool off the boiler.

Troubleshooting later --- Transformer for pump was too small.
New one on order. be here Monday
Problem is.......Now the ID fan wont turn on.

I should say the fan wont turn, Since testing the fan indicates that there
is power at the fan (2 legs of 120V)

Now when I turn on the boiler it indicates the fan as running
Open the door and the fan runs at 100%
Every indication that its fine, except the fan is NOT running.
After about 10 minutes the control board shows a fault.
The fault is "Fan not turning in spite of full activation"

I've brought the fan to the suppliers place and plugged it into
his boiler and it runs fine.

I'm confused . I get power at the fan . But the fan no turn

Edit. The overheat circuit did trip. It is re-set.

I do not know about the electronics, but one thing jumped out at me, you indicate after 90minutes you loaded 4 pieces of wood and 20 minutes later the pump and boiler shut off

stefan66 said:
Just finished installing a Froling FHG 30 boiler.
First fire was as per instructions and everything was running fine.
After about 1 1/2 hours, loaded 4 more pieces of wood, closed
the door, everything good.
Then I turned my circulator to medium speed and about 20 minutes
later I heard the induced draft fan shut down.
I thought that's weird. The boiler temp. was only about 160F..
Then I noticed the pump stopped also.. Oh boy here we go.
Scramble to pull wires from transformer. Put plug on pump.
Plug in pump. OK now I can cool off the boiler.

Troubleshooting later --- Transformer for pump was too small.
New one on order. be here Monday
Problem is.......Now the ID fan wont turn on.

I should say the fan wont turn, Since testing the fan indicates that there
is power at the fan (2 legs of 120V)

Now when I turn on the boiler it indicates the fan as running
Open the door and the fan runs at 100%
Every indication that its fine, except the fan is NOT running.
After about 10 minutes the control board shows a fault.
The fault is "Fan not turning in spite of full activation"

I've brought the fan to the suppliers place and plugged it into
his boiler and it runs fine.

I'm confused . I get power at the fan . But the fan no turn

Edit. The overheat circuit did trip. It is re-set.

On clarification on what you wrote:

1 1/2 hour after the kick off burn, you added 4 logs and 20 minutes later the fan and pump shut off. Was that a boiler off mode shut off or a fault shut off.

With only 4 pieces of wood on a minimal coal bed, that would seem like a normal shut off after 20 minutes or so, especially with soft wood and more so on a new boiler start up, 4 logs will yield minimal burn time and the o2 level will rise above 19% in about that much elapsed time.
If that is the case the boiler with a 160f will most likely go in off mode and then modulate the pump on and off as needed.

So if you yanked the pump at that time, then it may very well go into overheat mode....

Dan is very knowledgeable in the electrical/electronic dept, so I am simply examining the simple maybe overlooked scenario...

Best luck

Scott

stefan66 · Jun 22, 2014

jebatty said:
I'm confused by your reference to a 120v pump. The Froling requires a 240v supply and is furnished with a loading unit (circulator) that also is 240v to the best of my knowledge. What pump are you talking about that requires 120v? The system I work with has zone control 24vac coil switching relays to operate 120vac system circulators. Exactly how did you wire the Froling and the pump you are talking about?

Yes the Froling has 240v supply. Everything checks out good there.
My unit did not come with a loading unit.
True, it does want to run a 240v pump.
The dealer told me it would be alright to route the pump power through
a 240v-120v transformer.
Trouble is, I used a 50va transformer. Electrical is not my specialty.
Tomorrow I'm picking up a 250va transformer.
I'm using a 3 speed grunfoss 120v pump. On high speed it draws 1.8amps.
I definitely blew the transformer.
Upon further inspection this morning I see a bad glass fuse in the controller next to module supply.
I need a 6.3amp 250v fuse.
My guess is when the small transformer fried, it popped the module supply fuse.

Will let you all know how it goes tomorrow after transformer and fuse replacement.

stefan66 · Jun 22, 2014

skfire said:
I do not know about the electronics, but one thing jumped out at me, you indicate after 90minutes you loaded 4 pieces of wood and 20 minutes later the pump and boiler shut off

On clarification on what you wrote:

1 1/2 hour after the kick off burn, you added 4 logs and 20 minutes later the fan and pump shut off. Was that a boiler off mode shut off or a fault shut off.

With only 4 pieces of wood on a minimal coal bed, that would seem like a normal shut off after 20 minutes or so, especially with soft wood and more so on a new boiler start up, 4 logs will yield minimal burn time and the o2 level will rise above 19% in about that much elapsed time.
If that is the case the boiler with a 160f will most likely go in off mode and then modulate the pump on and off as needed.

So if you yanked the pump off at that time, then it may very well go into overheat mode....

Dan is very knowledgeable in the electrical/electronic dept, so I am simply examining the simple maybe overlooked scenario...

Best luck

Scott

Good point skfire
Trouble is , the boiler showed no errors.
Boiler showed the pump active and ID fan running 100%
Thanks for the feedback.

skfire · Jun 22, 2014

stefan66 said:
Good point skfire
Trouble is , the boiler showed no errors.
Boiler showed the pump active and ID fan running 100%
Thanks for the feedback.

So at the 20 minute mark after the reload, the boiler did not show OFF, it was still in heating mode and both fan and pump both shut off?
That was what I was trying to understand...

Scott

Chris Hoskin · Jun 23, 2014

the 240V supply for the boiler and 120V need for the boiler pump is all handled in the ESB (Electrical Service Box) that comes with the boiler. It is part of the UL/CSA approval of the boiler. No need for additional transformers.

maple1 · Jun 23, 2014

Sounds like some vendor support/input is in order.

skfire · Jun 23, 2014

Chris Hoskin said:
the 240V supply for the boiler and 120V need for the boiler pump is all handled in the ESB (Electrical Service Box) that comes with the boiler. It is part of the UL/CSA approval of the boiler. No need for additional transformers.

from the O.P.s #10 response, it seemed like the ESB was not utilized for pump control...but there is reference to a module supply...
Hope it gets clarified...

Scott

stefan66 · Jun 23, 2014

skfire said:
from the O.P.s #10 response, it seemed like the ESB was not utilized for pump control...but there is reference to a module supply...
Hope it gets clarified...

Scott

Module supply is correct.
240volt pump supply confirmed
at terminals.

Hooked up a new transformer
today. After about two minutes
the transformer started
grunting intermittently. I'm sure it's hooked up right. But I'm no electrician.
Called up an electrical control specialist.
I'm missing something !
Don't want to do any more damage.
Have to wait for now.
Thanks for the replies.
Will let you know what the solution/problem was.

Here's a picture of the module/brain

skfire · Jun 24, 2014

stefan66 said:
Module supply is correct.
240volt pump supply confirmed
at terminals.

Hooked up a new transformer
today. After about two minutes
the transformer started
grunting intermittently. I'm sure it's hooked up right. But I'm no electrician.
Called up an electrical control specialist.
I'm missing something !
Don't want to do any more damage.
Have to wait for now.
Thanks for the replies.
Will let you know what the solution/problem was.

Here's a picture of the module/brain

The ESB(see attached photos) is what Chris was referring to and the contact C1 is what feeds the pump. It seems you do not have this ESB box, or it is not being utilized.

Scott

stefan66 · Jun 24, 2014

skfire said:
The ESB(see attached photos) is what Chris was referring to and the contact C1 is what feeds the pump. It seems you do not have this ESB box, or it is not being utilized.

Scott

Thanks for the interest Scott.
For clarification, the unit I have is the FHG Turbo.
I see your unit has the main power switch as part of the ESB on the side panel.
My power goes directly to the module on top of the boiler.
What else is in the ESB other than main power and pump control?
Is that a lambda unit you have there? Do you also have the module on top of the boiler?
The dealer here hasn't been much help electrically. His brother has sold a few in the Toronto
area but he has licensed electricians doing the hookup there. I'm pretty much on my own here.
Probably be Thursday till I can get a control specialist out.

maple1 · Jun 24, 2014

This sounds like some sort of basic install issue to me - if the dealer who sold it to you can't provide simple wiring instruction to get it to work right, he shouldn't be selling them. A boiler connection should be a basic easy running of electric feed from the panel to a connection point on the boiler. If he doesn't have the easy solution, I would go over him to the next step up the supply ladder. A brand new state of the art unit like this is shouldn't have this going on.

Or is it a used unit?

stefan66 · Jun 24, 2014

maple1 said:
This sounds like some sort of basic install issue to me - if the dealer who sold it to you can't provide simple wiring instruction to get it to work right, he shouldn't be selling them. A boiler connection should be a basic easy running of electric feed from the panel to a connection point on the boiler. If he doesn't have the easy solution, I would go over him to the next step up the supply ladder. A brand new state of the art unit like this is shouldn't have this going on.

Or is it a used unit?

It's a new unit. Manufacture date Dec.2012.
Who would be next up the supply ladder? The manufacturer?

__dan · Jun 24, 2014

Typically the output relay contacts from a control board would be "pilot duty" rated. That's only enough (conservatively) to operate the coil of an isolating relay. I would not normally switch an inductive load like a circ directly by a control board output, and adding the transformer just increases the inductive switching transient at the relay contacts.

Considering the expense of a control board compared to the expense of a socket mounted isolating relay, as a part that wears out, it's cheap insurance to use the control board output to operate the coil of the load switching relay.

That's where you are. If you feel the dealer's electrical knowledge is not expert, you can increase your projected reliability and decrease your cost by using a 240 v coil relay to switch the pump load instead of using the 240 v step down transformer switched by the control board.

stefan66 · Jun 24, 2014

__dan said:
Typically the output relay contacts from a control board would be "pilot duty" rated. That's only enough (conservatively) to operate the coil of an isolating relay. I would not normally switch an inductive load like a circ directly by a control board output, and adding the transformer just increases the inductive switching transient at the relay contacts.

Considering the expense of a control board compared to the expense of a socket mounted isolating relay, as a part that wears out, it's cheap insurance to use the control board output to operate the coil of the load switching relay.

That's where you are. If you feel the dealer's electrical knowledge is not expert, you can increase your projected reliability and decrease your cost by using a 240 v coil relay to switch thre ump load instead of using the 240 v step down transformer switched by the control board.

240 v coil relay? Don't have a clue as to what that is.
The pump load is switched from the module now.
Would that switch have to be bypassed?

flyingcow · Jun 24, 2014

Why don't you call Tarm in NH? Easy to talk to

skfire · Jun 24, 2014

stefan66 said:
240 v coil relay? Don't have a clue as to what that is.
The pump load is switched from the module now.
Would that switch have to be bypassed?

You need that ESB box/relay, in order to control the power, pump, fan etc, instead of tapping into the module/brain/controller directly. That is what Dan is saying and what both Chris and myself alluded to. If I understood what Dan was describing correctly, you may have caused some damage to the controller by wiring directly into the controller with the transformer in line....but I hope not...You need INSTANT dealer support.

I do not know about the Canadian set up/dealers/suppliers, but Tarm is very specific about their set up with explicit photographed instructions and the ESB/relay is a KEY component in the wiring of the controller.

My boiler is the Lambda series, but the controller is the same from what I recall. It is used for a variety of Froling boilers.

Good luck

Scott

__dan · Jun 24, 2014

stefan66 said:
240 v coil relay? Don't have a clue as to what that is.
The pump load is switched from the module now.
Would that switch have to be bypassed?

Using the 240 v output directly from the controller board, the only thing you would attach directly to that would be the coil of a relay, the coil would be rated for the system voltage, 240 v.

The relay would give you switched contacts and you could switch the circ power through those using a 120 v supply to match the circ voltage.

It would never occur to me to try to power a transformer from a lightly rated control board output because the inductive switching transient of the transformer would be expected to break down the output relay contacts.

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