switching to natural gas due to new line on street.....

BrotherBart said:

I like the EIA map of NG pipelines better.

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That's a nice map but a little too busy for me. I'm more of a local thinker (worrier).

If you use NG for heat you may as well be PRO FRACKING. I feel sorry for the folks forced to live next to the new fracking wells. Its not just the water problems caused by fracking. The air pollution can kill you down wind from a fracking well. I know I know. Somehow we need energy and many electric power plants are being converted from coal to NG.

IMO, keep it.

NG is due to spike in price in 5 years time just about every analyst says. you'll regret selling it.

if anything, keep it for ambiance.

Those who pointed out the fact that our current regime is intent of destroying coal have hit the nail on the head. Not only are there inevitable shortages in winter as more people get on to NG, but in the summer without coal producing half our electricity (95% in Ohio), the electric companies turn to the NG turbines which are horribly inefficient, which results in the peak electricity rates during summer. With us moving 50% of our electrical generation to these NG turbines, the price of BOTH NG and electricity will 'necessarily skyrocket', as the Rhodes scholar said......
Bottom line is you're screwed no matter what you do. If it were me, I'd keep the pellet stove, convert to NG for everything but make sure it's all high efficiency. Ride the wave as long as you can and hope SOMEONE in DC comes to their senses ( a long shot for sure).

rona said:

Think about that for a while as it would be a good target for terrorists wouldn't it?

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Take one of those out in a major harbor:


About 100,000 cubic meters of LNG...

To the OP: The cost per BTU between pellets and NG is almost the same at least up here in VT. Thus, you won't really save money by switching the insert to NG but make yourself fully dependent on one fuel source and its pricing. On the other hand, replacing your range is something to think about. I enjoy cooking on gas and it saves fossil fuels unless your electricity is coming from renewable sources.

tjnamtiw said:

... but in the summer without coal producing half our electricity (95% in Ohio), the electric companies turn to the NG turbines which are horribly inefficient,

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I have also mixed feelings about the current focus on NG as our "energy savior" but that statement is not correct. Coal power plants are ~35 % efficient while NG power plants reach 40 % to 45 %. http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html
The table shows that on average NG power plants have been more efficient than other non-renewable fuel sources and continue to improve. NG power plants of newer designs reach 50 % to 60 % efficiency.

Grisu said:

I have also mixed feelings about the current focus on NG as our "energy savior" but that statement is not correct. Coal power plants are ~35 % efficient while NG power plants reach 40 % to 45 %. http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html
The table shows that on average NG power plants have been more efficient than other non-renewable fuel sources and continue to improve. NG power plants of newer designs reach 50 % to 60 % efficiency.

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OK, I'm going off topic a bit but I need some help with that EIA table link:

Does that table state it takes 10400 BTU to produce one KWhr in a coal power plant?
And a Nat Gas power plant only needs 8200 BTU to make the same one KWhr of electricity?

What explains that hugh difference?
And how many BTUs are put back into my home by my little old 1 KWhr baseboard or space heater?

CaptSpiff said:

OK, I'm going off topic a bit but I need some help with that EIA table link:

Does that table state it takes 10400 BTU to produce one KWhr in a coal power plant?
And a Nat Gas power plant only needs 8200 BTU to make the same one KWhr of electricity?

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You got it. 1 kWh has 3412 BTU => efficiency for coal: 3412/10400 = 33 %; efficiency for NG: 3412/8200 = 41 %
However, modern NG plants get a (claimed) efficiency of up to 60 %. http://www.environmentalleader.com/...efficient-natural-gas-power-plant-technology/

What explains that hugh difference?

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Different ways of generating electrical power from coal than from NG. You would need to read about the different power generation techniques they use; going into that here would be too much.

And how many BTUs are put back into my home by my little old 1 KWhr baseboard or space heater?

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As said above: 1 kWh = 3412 BTU (for reference: 1 cu ft of hardwood will be about 150,000 to 200,000 BTU). Electric heat is close to 100 % efficient so any kWh read at your meter will produce that amount of BTUs. However, due to transmission losses not 100 % of the kWh produced will also end up at your home. That and the efficiencies above are the reasons why I consider a gas range as much more efficient than an electrical range. A NG power plant will get 41 % of the energy out of the NG. Add some transmission losses and your are at ~37 % of the energy in the NG that ends up in your range and can be used to heat up your food. A NG range burns close to 100 % of the energy. Hence, a gas range will consume roughly 1/3 of the NG that an electrical range will need powered by electricity produced through NG. A gas hot water heater is similarly more efficient than an electrical one although probably only by 1/2 (due to the exhaust gases that are vented off). That's one of the reasons they promote NG so much to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. We just get higher efficiencies from NG than other fossil fuels and therefore need to burn less of it for the same effect. However, the best method is going electric and getting the electricity from renewable sources. That will use no/the least amount of fossil fuels.

NG producers say prices will have to go up or they will stop drilling, won't be worth it.

You talk btu's but fail to mention the cost comparison of those btu's. Why do you think electric costs per KWH go up in the summer? Because they have to throw the NG generators on line to make up for the demand increase and it costs MORE to run them. Kill all the coal generators and see what your bill will be! Bye bye air conditioning!

BrotherBart said:

"Here is what we do guys. We blow up their gas wells and bring them to their knees."

"Excellent idea. How many producing gas wells do they have."

"Just 482,822."

"Say what!??"

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Someone could blow up a few gas lines and you might take a different attitude. A rumor and gas prices leap what do you think nat gas price would do if a few pipelines blew up? Think a little on that idea.