Thoughts on 'personal' energy use

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Slow1

Slow1

Minister of Fire
Nov 26, 2008
2,677
Eastern MA
So getting an electric car and paying attention to how much it is using has me thinking more about my energy use. What got me started was realizing that if I drive the car 60 miles or so, then the amount of electricity required to bring it to full charge (about 20Kwh) is considerably more than the rest of my house uses in a day (about 16kwh). Now I am avoiding the question of overall efficiency of electric vs gas, but it does seem that as a proportion of my energy use, transportation is much higher than I had expected.

I've spent quite a bit of time/energy/money trying to reduce our household electric use. I haven't spent nearly as much trying to optimize/minimize my transportation energy use and perhaps there is a significant amount of savings to be had there....

What I have also ignored here is home energy used to heat water (currently oil) and winter heating (wood of course)... so the proportions may not be exactly right - then again I've not calculated our other vehicle into the mix either.

If my results are reflective of others, perhaps there could be tangible savings in encouraging more prudent use of personal transportation. (Yes I realize public transportation is wonderful if you have it) Anyone else had thoughts on this line? I've heard for years that one should plan trips etc, but never really did the math on the value....
 
You are doing well but need to add the energy consumed for hot water and heating to have a complete picture. Then start working on the food you eat and especially the beverages consumed. A whole lot more energy is used to move wine and beer from Europe than to move it from local sources.
 
  • Like
Reactions: semipro
Are you looking at this from a money-saving perspective or an environmental perspective?

I keep track of my home electrical usage very closely and I'm at about 12.5kwh/day over the last 18 months, deducting the high and low months. I've looked into switching suppliers with the deregulation of the supply-side market, but because I'm such a low-use consumer, it amounts to literally a dime per day in savings. For me, the easiest way to reduce home usage is to turn stuff off, much like if you want better gas mileage, drive slower or drive less.

I've looked at getting solar panels installed, going geothermal, small turbine, but in each case, the initial investment far outweighed the per month savings and I would have to wait years or decades in order to actually see savings in my pocket. The only thing it would offer is the environmental aspect of doing it, which isn't a priority for me.

I've used public transportation and personal transportation getting to and from work and unless you work typical hours, personal transportation, in my 60mpg coal roller, is a much better choice for me. I drive 500 miles/week for work and generally don't drive around outside of that. At some point you reach a point where any additional improvement gives such a small incremental improvement, it gets to be unreasonable or not worthwhile.

What electric car did you get? I got a chance to drive a Tesla because the salesman threw me the keys but the range on that is woefully inadequate.
 
begreen said:
You are doing well but need to add the energy consumed for hot water and heating to have a complete picture. Then start working on the food you eat and especially the beverages consumed. A whole lot more energy is used to move wine and beer from Europe than to move it from local sources.
Click to expand...

I can't find the source, but I remember reading somewhere several years ago that for those of us that live east of the mighty Mississippi river, the carbon footprint of European wines is actually smaller than California wines. I don't recall the source or the exact details unfortunately. I think it had something to do with the efficiency of the transportation.
 
The point being, explore local wines and beers. Ohio/NY/PA/IN/IL/ wines in your case are going to have a lower carbon footprint than either CA or European wines.
 
The carbon footprint of getting chitfaced. Now I have seen it all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Owen1508, Bret Chase, Frozen Canuck and 2 others
I've spent quite a bit of time/energy/money trying to reduce our household electric use. I haven't spent nearly as much trying to optimize/minimize my transportation energy use and perhaps there is a significant amount of savings to be had there....
Click to expand...
Yes, have given this thought. Our primary goal has been a net 0 house. We heat primarily with wood, and with the 6.5 kwh solar PV and estimated annual production a little over 9000 kwh, the goal is not to exceed kwh usage greater than PV. Except for wood heat, our house is all electric, including supplemental electric heat and dhw. Also will be adding before fall a small solar hot air collector to get some additional heat into our basement walkout to reduce electric heat usage.

We live in a rural area, nearest small town is 15 miles away, and nearest larger town with major shopping is 45 miles away. Plus, 400 miles round trip to see children and grandchildren in Minneapolis-St. Paul. Driving mileage is 30,000-40,000 miles/year. That is very difficult to reduce by much without giving up family. No public transportation alternative. One of our cars averages 29 mpg on the highway and the other 34 mpg.

If we had rapid public transportation between our home and Minneapolis-St. Paul, I would consider using that and basing an electric car at the home of one our children, for our use when visiting and their use when not. But there isn't any reasonable public transportation even for this.
 
There are certainly a lot of variables. You can of course use a carbon foot print calculator to try to figure out all the different contributions. If you don't worry about carbon, you can still think of CO2 as a (good) proxy for fossil energy use or a (rough) proxy for environmental degradation.

I have looked at a few of these calculators and frankly, most of the ones I looked at were really crappy, and gave results which were IMO erroneous. There is clearly room for improvement, but the one I found that I liked was:

http://coolclimate.berkeley.edu/carboncalculator

It says that my family footprint when I moved into my house in 2005 was pretty typical for my location/income/family size (80 tons CO2/yr), and after home energy improvements and full electrification of my home and 85% of my car miles with wind power, that is cut roughly in half to 40 tons/yr. Most of the remainder is air travel, food and 'services' we buy from the US economy. Sounds about right.
 
I've only begun recently to look at family food consumption as a major C02 source, particularly meat and dairy products, as well as location of supply points for food. Not sure how this is going to work out, but I think reduction of meat and dairy needs serious consideration. Food purchase more local is an option, but the availability of fresh fruits and vegetables would be severely seasonally limited in our northern climate. We also don't can foods, so buying more local and canning would be a whole new venture for us. Seasonal purchases of local fruits/vegetables and freezing would be an option to some extent and would not increase energy usage so long as we don't add any freezer capacity to what we already have.
 
The best studies I have seen suggest that for most foods (excluding those few shipped by air), the energy/carbon associated with food transport is only ~10% of that required to produce it in the first place. In some cases, it requires less energy to grow something in a warmer climate and ship it north than to produce it locally in a colder climate.

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-miles

So, its not as easy as just buying local. I think it would be a good idea to avoid foods that were likely airshipped, like anything with a short shelf life from another continent. Otherwise, I don't worry about 'food miles'.

Reducing food wastage is a bigger area for improvement. And reducing meat/dairy IF you are willing.
 
begreen said:
You are doing well but need to add the energy consumed for hot water and heating to have a complete picture.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Will be easier for the DHW soon as I'm planning to install a Geyser heat pump - if it is up to the task that should eliminate my oil for hot water burn at least during the summer. Going almost all electric makes it easier to 'see' the relative usages...

begreen said:
hen start working on the food you eat and especially the beverages consumed. A whole lot more energy is used to move wine and beer from Europe than to move it from local sources.
Click to expand...

I guess I"m ahead on the drinks - I generally only drink tap water. Occasional soda when out. Food is so much harder for me as the time required to 'source locally' or the increased cost just put it out of reach (remember we're chasing 4 small ones!).

chrispr1 said:
Are you looking at this from a money-saving perspective or an environmental perspective?
Click to expand...

Yes. By nature I don't like to waste things. Saving money helps to drive other savings. I agree that there is a diminishing return on such things - I'm out of practical ways to reduce our home electric usage. We have LED's in almost all fixtures we use; kids (and adults) are well trained in turning off unused lights. TV is rarely on and has a power strip to cut all power etc... Thus my surprise at how much we use driving about.

chrispr1 said:
What electric car did you get? I got a chance to drive a Tesla because the salesman threw me the keys but the range on that is woefully inadequate.
Click to expand...
I bought a Leaf - see my other thread if you are interested in details.

Ok, so you drive 500 miles per week and a 300 mile range is 'woefully inadequate'? You do realize one is supposed to charge each night? :) I'm clearly missing something there.

I have a goal reduce or fully eliminate fossil fuel burning from our daily life. There is something satisfying knowing that the power we use is primarily from solar via the PV array. Of course, now that we're using it for the car our surplus production is likely to be gone and the discussion of filling the last piece of our south roof face will be reopened.
 
Food transport probably is not the primary cost. For meat: the use of water for the animal and for irrigation of crops, and then the carbon footprint of fuel to plant and harvest the crops (corn), fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides is large -- and the air/soils/water pollution is high.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cynnergy and woodgeek
Slow1 said:
Ok, so you drive 500 miles per week and a 300 mile range is 'woefully inadequate'? You do realize one is supposed to charge each night? :) I'm clearly missing something there.
Click to expand...

Perhaps he merely listens to the media.

Much of the auto-related popular press has panned all EVs, often for comedic effect, as having so little range as to be useless, and hyped 'range anxiety' as the major theme for their 'lazy journalism' approach.

Heard an NPR story about folks in Philly adding public EV charging stations and then seeing very low usage. The journalist talks to these folks, then some other journalists, no EV owners/drivers (!), and then concludes that the problem is no one is buying EVs. When of course, there are thousands of EVs in the area (which you can see driving down the road), presumably being charged at home. :rolleyes:
 
On the subject of range anxiety - I did notice the first day we had the car that we would need to make an adjustment in our thinking. In our gas car we would generally not go below 1/4 tank before re-filling. Basically we artificially reduced the range of the car so that we could have more choice about when to go to the gas station and fill up (i.e. wife waiting for me to drive the car...). Anyway, with the Leaf it is fine to arrive home on empty. IF we were to adopt the same 1/4 reserve and feel anxious about hitting that then the functionality of the car goes down quite a bit.

Example - my wife drove it 75 miles the day after we bought it. She called me concerned when about 1/2 way home as it was in that last quarter of capacity. Another call when the "low batter" indicator came on (about 20%), then a "I think I may just make it" when about home. She arrived home with 9% battery remaining - enough for at least 5 miles more. A close call? Not really, just using the car to full potential. Rest of week she made the same trip 4 more times. The last time I asked her if the low battery indicator came on - her response "I didn't pay attention because I know it will make it". Interesting - range anxiety was pretty bad that first drive, but clearly vanished within a few days.

Another example - I had to take my daughter to the airport on Saturday. It is just about 42 miles per google maps. I drove there conservatively (tried to stay in speed limit or at least under 70 on the highway. Arrived with 57% remaining indicated. Plugged into charging station there while walking he into the airport and was indicating 80% (+23% in about an hour) when I came out and left. I figured plenty of power so I drove 'normal' on the way home (i.e. traffic speed) and had 25% indicated on return. Extrapolating the numbers it appears I may well have been able to go both ways without charging, perhaps even driving so conservatively. I had considered this a "risk" trip, but now I am comfortable that it is in range - if I spend any time there then I could likely make a detour on the way back (doesn't happen often on these runs, but nice to know I can).

My point here being that it is easy to have range anxiety if you have no experience to base a sense of trust. As I have watched the performance of the car it seems remarkably predictable although I can't yet easily articulate the patterns. Basically (as one would expect) if you drive hard/fast on highway it will have reduced range, drive easy and you use less power. The best gauge on the car in my opinion is the real time and average Miles/Kwh bars. If my trip is averaging 4 or more (which is surprisingly easy to do) I can easily get over 80 miles and not hit very low battery warning (I now consider that my 'reserve' and from my reading that may be 10% of range, or another 8 miles). So, I plan - rarely do I have a need to travel that far in one day, but if on the edge (like the airport run) I look for a charging station.
 
Sensible...we haven't used the bottom 20% yet (the bottom two bars out of 12, which are red) but have used the Leaf without concern for all the 'in range' driving we had. All our regular trips are <50 miles and the rest are >100 miles roundtrip.
 
Slow1 said:
Ok, so you drive 500 miles per week and a 300 mile range is 'woefully inadequate'? You do realize one is supposed to charge each night? :) I'm clearly missing something there.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be for my commuting car; I know they're meant to be charged. If I can't make it up to my camps in Maine or NH nonstop, it's just an expensive car payment. If it were just for work and back that's another story but I can't afford to have a vehicle that doesn't fit a specific niche in my life.

ETA: I average 30-35k miles per year.
 
chrispr1 said:
It wouldn't be for my commuting car; I know they're meant to be charged. If I can't make it up to my camps in Maine or NH nonstop, it's just an expensive car payment. If it were just for work and back that's another story but I can't afford to have a vehicle that doesn't fit a specific niche in my life.

ETA: I average 30-35k miles per year.
Click to expand...

Well, I can't imagine anyone buying a Tesla for the economy of it. Just too expensive. And I agree, unless you happen to be lucky enough to have one of their charging stations on your route, if you do go over the range limit it isn't the car for that trip. VERY expensive 'extra' car there! But I wouldn't turn one down if someone wanted to give me one, heh.

But why not for your 'commuting' car? Seems it would work well for that... (economics above set aside). IF someone came up with a 300 mile range electric car for less than say $20K would you give it serious consideration? I would have to imagine most folks could.
 
Slow1 said:
IF someone came up with a 300 mile range electric car for less than say $20K would you give it serious consideration? I would have to imagine most folks could.
Click to expand...

Problem is that I won't spend 20k$ on any car. Let's hope for a decent used market and relatively (5500$?) cheap battery replacements. Until then it is cheaper for me to buy 4$ fuel and get 15mpg commuting to work.
 
Lots of wine and beer is getting drunk without getting hammered.
woodgeek said:
Perhaps he merely listens to the media.

Much of the auto-related popular press has panned all EVs, often for comedic effect, as having so little range as to be useless, and hyped 'range anxiety' as the major theme for their 'lazy journalism' approach.

Heard an NPR story about folks in Philly adding public EV charging stations and then seeing very low usage. The journalist talks to these folks, then some other journalists, no EV owners/drivers (!), and then concludes that the problem is no one is buying EVs. When of course, there are thousands of EVs in the area (which you can see driving down the road), presumably being charged at home. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I think you will find most EV owners pretty happy with their decision. We are coming up on a year of owning the Volt and have no regrets. We haven't used public charging too much because there is no universal system. Chargpoint and Blink here don't share scanners. It gets to be a pain unless you belong to the same charging club. That shouldn't be. One should have a universal charge card that works on all systems.

HB, some battery replacements are fairly cheap. I think the Volt and the Prius are under $3000. That said you could easily double your gas mileage with a used Honda Civic or similar car and not worry about the battery.
 
NE WOOD BURNER said:
It Seems to me a solar panel could maintain your batteries while you are parked at work and extend your range nicely.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_alternative-renewable-energy solar-panels-accessories amorphous-solar-panels
Click to expand...

Nice in theory... - the largest panel you linked to is 50 watts. When I charge with the "trickle charger" off 110v, I am drawing about 1200 watts. So, I suppose in theory I could pull together 24 of those 50 watt kits and get enough to trickle charge (about 3-4 miles per hour) as long as the sun is full on the panels... Of course at 43lbs (kit shipping weight) each that would weigh in at over 1000lbs to load/haul/set up when I get there.

I think I'll stick to charging from the plugs and enjoy knowledge that my stationary array is feeding into the system. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: NE WOOD BURNER
begreen said:
HB, some battery replacements are fairly cheap. I think the Volt and the Prius are under $3000. That said you could easily double your gas mileage with a used Honda Civic or similar car and not worry about the battery.
Click to expand...

I'm wondering what the batteries will look like in 8 years or so - our warranty assures us of at least 80% in 8 years or 100K miles. I wonder if when we go to replace the batteries at that time if the technology will have improved to enough to give significantly greater range for same space. I can easily imagine a third party option to update the batteries.... Then again, as I understand it the batteries are likely to go in bits and pieces vs a full replacement at once so it may be more like "annual maintenance" of batteries may require replacement of 5% of the cells or something.
 
Yes, I think capacity will increase, but will it be provided in the same form factor as the factory battery? Almost all battery packs are still quite viable for other service after they have finished their normal auto duty cycle. The battery is typically rated to be still at 80% capacity after years of service in the car. I've read that Volt batteries are being tried out for home power backup systems. There could be a robust market here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Seasoned Oak
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

woodgeek
Tony Seba is coming for your cheese, and says 100% solar is easy.
Replies
38
Views
2K
The Green Room
peakbagger
P
DBoon
Thinking ahead to better time-of-use electricity rates
Replies
11
Views
826
The Green Room
DBoon
DBoon
J
Run air source heat pump WITH Central Boiler?
Replies
2
Views
265
The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces
Joacchim
J
woodgeek
Two takes on that recent Climate Bill, the IRA...
Replies
13
Views
878
The Green Room
EbS-P
EbS-P
P
Suggestions for small space gas heat Lopi vs. Jotul
Replies
8
Views
279
It's a Gas!
Pioneer-in-the-city-girl
P
Top Bottom
Back