Help. Repair after failed WETT

lacking_options · Feb 7, 2014

Hi there.
I have an old(60s?) zero clearance Selkirk Metalbestos model 832 that recently failed WETT inspection. It has an 8" chimney that exits through the foundation(block) wall(above grade) and enters a wooden chase with cedar siding.

The inspector seemed to imply the setup was not fixable and wanted me to install their new gas insert. I wanted to get some other opinions. The following were the findings:
- "Due to width of chase we assume there is not adequate clearance "
- "The junction at the T comes to a 90. Can't see past that"
- "Rain cap not the type for this chimney"
- "Glass doors not meant for this model"

1. How wide does the chase have to be? My math would be 8" pipe + 2x2" gap + 2x0.75" ply + 2*0.75" cedar = 15" wide. The outside wall is brick so 11.5" deep. Or am I missing something? To confirm I'm assuming we have to open it up to to see?
2. Is a 90 not allowed? Are there any grandfather clauses accepted. Can't we just cut the old 90, widen the hole in the foundation and install some 30s. The top front of the fire place is enclosed behind some panel wood and would not be a big deal to open. Regardless of replace or repair we would have to open the chase.
3. Is there only one special rain cap that can fit the old chimney or are they fairly generic? I would think we could find a proper replacement?
4. The glass doors can be lifted off thus simple.

Don't get me wrong if there is something wrong I want to make sure it gets fixed correctly. A lot more has happened, that I won't bore people with, that has made me not believe this company is reliable.

oconnor · Feb 9, 2014

Sounds frustrating. I don't have anything to help you, but I'll bump you up. Someone will chime in.

Hardrockmaple · Feb 9, 2014

Who does the inspector work for? I question, .."The inspector seemed to imply the setup was not fixable and wanted me to install their new gas insert".. Is the Ontario government now selling fireplaces?

I'd call around and find an independent chimney sweep, who is reputable and independent from a stove shop, to give me a reliable local opinion.

DougA · Feb 9, 2014

When I had my WETT inspection, the guy knew less than I did. It was very frustrating. But he did finally give me a pass.

I would also find an independent inspector. The problem I am told is that if they pass your stove and there is a fire, they can be found liable and one guy who used to do it said the cost of yearly insurance for that liability exceeded what he was making in inspections.
For the US guys on here: If you don't have a WETT inspection certificate, you cannot qualify for house insurance.

bholler · Feb 9, 2014

Thanks doug I was wondering what WETT meant.

parthy · Feb 9, 2014

DougA said:
When I had my WETT inspection, the guy knew less than I did. It was very frustrating. But he did finally give me a pass.

I would also find an independent inspector. The problem I am told is that if they pass your stove and there is a fire, they can be found liable and one guy who used to do it said the cost of yearly insurance for that liability exceeded what he was making in inspections.
For the US guys on here: If you don't have a WETT inspection certificate, you cannot qualify for house insurance.

Based on the people that I have talked to around here that installed their own stoves, what you are going through is fairly typical. I am going through a stove dealer that installs their own, doesn't sub out and so far with my dealing with insurance company, no problems forthcoming.

My concern would be the upselling to a gas stove? I think you have entered into the realm of unregulated home inspector and I would run away, and fast from that.

DougA · Feb 9, 2014

Should have posted the link: http://www.wettinc.ca/what.html
It's an independent organization that promotes wood stove safety. Anyone can take the course and my guess (based on other courses) is that it's pretty easy to pass.
The idea is good but as usual, the end result is not always as good. The home inspection program in Ontario has become full of people who appear to want your money more than wanting to give you knowledgeable help.

lacking_options · Feb 10, 2014

oconnor said:
Sounds frustrating. I don't have anything to help you, but I'll bump you up. Someone will chime in.

Thanks for the bump. That helped a lot.

lacking_options · Feb 10, 2014

Hardrockmaple said:
Who does the inspector work for? I question, .."The inspector seemed to imply the setup was not fixable and wanted me to install their new gas insert".. Is the Ontario government now selling fireplaces?

I'd call around and find an independent chimney sweep, who is reputable and independent from a stove shop, to give me a reliable local opinion.

I'd rather not quote the company. It could just be a bad egg and I don't want to smear the the whole outfit. There has been a lot that has happened that made me very leery. That said my most recent discussions with other people in the company is going better. I'm still cautious though.

lacking_options · Feb 10, 2014

DougA said:
Should have posted the link: http://www.wettinc.ca/what.html
It's an independent organization that promotes wood stove safety. Anyone can take the course and my guess (based on other courses) is that it's pretty easy to pass.
The idea is good but as usual, the end result is not always as good. The home inspection program in Ontario has become full of people who appear to want your money more than wanting to give you knowledgeable help.

bholler said:
Thanks doug I was wondering what WETT meant.

Ya thanks for putting that up. Sorry I did not.

lacking_options · Feb 10, 2014

parthy said:
Based on the people that I have talked to around here that installed their own stoves, what you are going through is fairly typical. I am going through a stove dealer that installs their own, doesn't sub out and so far with my dealing with insurance company, no problems forthcoming.

My concern would be the upselling to a gas stove? I think you have entered into the realm of unregulated home inspector and I would run away, and fast from that.

Yes it was actually 2 fold. First they did an inspection and told me everything looked good except 2 measurements they had to verify back at the office. Then I did not hear from them for a couple weeks and found out they lost the report. They returned to do another inspection and this one suddenly had everything wrong. It was at this point they pushed for replace. There was even more but that would just be a gripe fest for me and does not really help come up with options. I did contact a few places and explained my situation. The other companies all agreed that there was sub standard reporting going on and they explained to me what they would consider issues. One fellow put me into contact with someone at Selkirk who actually found a manual for the old unit I had. I have been getting a lot of good info so far and I'll post my final results once things get cleared. I still hope others keep chiming in though as all opinions are valuable .

lacking_options · Feb 10, 2014

Hi everyone. Thanks for the comments so far. Here is a quick update. After some discussions they seem ameenable to repair. The company wants to see if there is a 90 bend going out the foundation wall. We are going to open the wall above the chimney to inspect that. After that they have said that if there is a 90 and they can identify the chimney they will have to drill a 45 through the wall and replace that part. I had assumed chimney pipe was pretty standard but I guess not. We'll see how that goes.

DougA · Feb 10, 2014

Check around for a matching chimney pipe. I had that problem when I needed one foot added to the top of mine to get the required height to pass. The first place I went to (most recommended locally) said my existing pipe was ILLEGAL and I had to replace everything !!!

!! It took a number of calls and a road trip to find an exact match and the pipe I had was not only LEGAL but still being sold. Seems each dealer carries a certain line of chimney and trash the competition.
Just sayin .... check around. 90* bends are allowed in many cases but you need to check the listing for your stove.

begreen · Feb 10, 2014

This is starting to sound a bit fishy. You would think they would be able to determine what is happening by inspecting through the thimble with a bright light and a mirror. There should be a tee there. That is legal. To my knowledge they don't make a 45 elbow in high temp pipe so I don't understand what they are talking about for a solution. Could be I'm not understanding something that they are seeing of course. If it is a poor installation then it should be corrected or replaced with perhaps a better solution like maybe a free-standing stove with a liner?

lacking_options · Feb 10, 2014

begreen said:
This is starting to sound a bit fishy. You would think they would be able to determine what is happening by inspecting through the thimble with a bright light and a mirror. There should be a tee there. That is legal. To my knowledge they don't make a 45 elbow in high temp pipe so I don't understand what they are talking about for a solution. Could be I'm not understanding something that they are seeing of course. If it is a poor installation then it should be corrected or replaced with perhaps a better solution like maybe a free-standing stove with a liner?

They should be able to determine the angle as you suggest but they said that they need to ID the chimney to determine if the 90 is allowed. To do that they need to open the panel. Personally, pulling a wood panel off is a simple and easy process and if it gets us moving forward I'm all for it. And yes if there is an issue I do want it fixed. Once we pull that panel I'll take some pics and add them.

lacking_options · Feb 10, 2014

DougA said:
Check around for a matching chimney pipe. I had that problem when I needed one foot added to the top of mine to get the required height to pass. The first place I went to (most recommended locally) said my existing pipe was ILLEGAL and I had to replace everything!! It took a number of calls and a road trip to find an exact match and the pipe I had was not only LEGAL but still being sold. Seems each dealer carries a certain line of chimney and trash the competition.
Just sayin .... check around. 90* bends are allowed in many cases but you need to check the listing for your stove.

Yes from reading the manual it only describes 15s and 30s but I'll need to read it more closely.

DouggyD · Jul 16, 2014

Sorry, late to the party on this one, but I am in a very similar situation with the same model of fireplace (Selkirk 832) and same location (Ottawa), so don't see the point in starting a new thread.

We bought or house about 6 years ago, it was built in about 1970 and I am guessing that the fireplace and chimney are original or close to it. We have never used the fireplace as the chimney was pretty rusted out when we bought the place. I originally bought a stainless steel chimney second hand, but in good shape, planning to replace the existing one, but never got around to it. Now the wife is compaining that the basement, where the fireplace is located, is too drafty in the winter. Like many of you, we had a long and hard winter this past year, so now we are looking for options to replace the fireplace and/or chimney. Our options include an insert (wood or natural gas), a new fireplace install or possibly just replace the chimney.

Of course, every company we contact recommends removal and new install, but that is $5-10k and it will be impossible to match the brickwork with the rest of the basement. You can see from the attached pictures, most of our basement is brick, including the fireplace. When we moved in, we painted the bricks and installed new floors, so I don't want to go messing with a new install now if we can avoid it.

Any advice would be appreciated.

begreen · Jul 16, 2014

Have you had any local stove shops come out and assess the possibility of installing an insert with a liner? If you go for a replacement get a good EPA ZC fireplace and don't worry too much about matching the brick, especially with it being painted. Another option would be to tear out the bumpout for the current fireplace and make it flush with the adjacent walls. Then put a free standing stove on the hearth.

Grisu · Jul 16, 2014

Welcome to the forum, DouggyD!

I am not familiar with that fireplace and cannot find anything about it on the net. If it is really a zero clearance unit (meaning behind the brick there are studs and other combustible materials) then installing an insert in your fireplace may also not meet WETT specifications. I would certainly have a WETT-certified inspector come over to assess the fireplace and chimney to tell you if that is a possibility. The problem is that ZC fireplaces have usually not been tested with an insert in them and therefore installing one will in principle void its UL listing. Personally, I don't see how having a fire in an air-jacketed insert in a ZC fireplace can be more dangerous than burning wood directly in the fireplace but your inspector and insurance may disagree. Not sure what the official stand of the WETT is on that issue. Those points may be of no relevance when installing a gas insert. Again, someone with detailed knowledge of WETT-requirements should be able to tell you more.

Safe options would be replacing the fireplace with another efficient ZC fireplace or removing it altogether and putting a stove there, as BeGreen suggested. Another option would be to extend the current hearth and put a rear-vented stove in front of the fireplace. Here would be an example: https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/24/24970-8cb767cacb8ec907bf7bcf3b1ce26e77.jpg The last option may be the least involved one but will take up the most space.

I would also have an independent chimney sweep take a look at the chimney to check whether it needs replacement or it is still in good enough shape and can be used with whatever unit you want to install.

DouggyD · Jul 16, 2014

Thanks for the input guys. Being a big noob with all of this fireplcae lingo, I am not really sure what language you are speaking.

What is a EPA ZC fireplace? I have had a couple company's check out the existing unit and they all agree that it is not up to code with the age, corrosion and 90 degree connection for the chimney, but one company did say I should be good with a small natural gas insert, such as the Enviro E20, Valor Retrofire, Marquis Capella, Napoleon GDIZC or Regency Horizon.

I would like to get a small insert to avoid having to tear out the brick work and then dealing with trying to find new materials to match the old. One saving grace we may have is that the wall on the right side of the fireplace is just drywall, so we could easily tear that out to get at the old fireplace and chimney, if needed and then replace it without disturbing the brick and flooring, etc.

What is a reasonable price to do this? I am being quoted north of $5k

bholler · Jul 16, 2014

I can almost guarantee that if you put an insert in that fireplace it will fail inspection due to the reasons grisu stated. Depending on the stove 5k might be about right to put in a new zc fireplace and a chimney

Grisu · Jul 16, 2014

ZC = zero clearance: A fireplace that is encased in an air-cooled steel box with usually very close clearances to combustibles. Can be installed in a wooden chase for example. Here is a scheme: http://www.dubuquefireplaceandpatio.com/fireplace.images/zero-clearance-fireplace.jpg When the side of the fireplace is drywall that is probably what you have.

EPA = Environmental Protection Agency. Sets standards for emissions of wood burning units. Modern EPA-approved units have low emissions and reach efficiencies between 60 % and 80 % compared with older stoves that are more in the 30 % to 40 % range. Usually results in less wood use, longer burn times, and cleaner burns.

Given the comments of the companies (and the caveats I mentioned earlier) a woodburning insert is probably out of the question. Maybe a small gas insert would work but I have no clue about the WETT-requirements for those. Since your fireplace seems to be in a pretty bad shape I am not sure if I would go that route either. That leaves you with the options I mentioned earlier. For an efficient "budget" ZC fireplace take a look at the Flame Monaco. Still, with tearing out the old one, chimney, and install you will be looking at ~5K.

If you don't mind the sweat you could remove the whole fireplace assembly yourself. Make a nice hearth where currently the fireplace is, finish the walls and the remaining floor and install a budget stove like an Englander, Drolet, Pacific Energy True North, or Timberwolf. Depending on how much you will spend on the hearth and other building materials you may be able to get below 4K. The third option of extending the hearth, putting a liner in the chimney and connecting it to a rear-vented stove may be about the same. However, I am not sure if I would keep the chimney.

DougA · Jul 16, 2014

I just had a long conversion yesterday with one of the most experienced and best WETT inspectors in Ontario. I wanted to have my 6" SS insulated chimney inspected to see if it would pass prior to use on a new stove. I mentioned that it was over 25 yrs. old and instantly, the answer was that it would not pass due to being past the life warranty, which was 25 yrs. After a lengthy discussion, if the inspector knows it is over 25 yrs., they have to fail it, "that's the RULE". If you don't say anything, it might pass but might not. Anything he considers 'questionable' will not pass and must be replaced.

In my case, the bottom line is that there's no way to tell if a 30 yr. old chimney is completely safe to use. You can only tell if there is damage to it making it unsafe. There could be a problem with insulation that has shifted, leaving some areas with no insulation. You can find inspectors that are not as strict and not as knowledgeable but your prime concern is safety and if you do have a fire and if the insurance company can find fault in your stove/insert/chimney, your insurance will not pay.

I decided to replace my old chimney but you can be sure that someone will buy it 'as-is' and install it in their home. I once sold a van to someone for $400 'as-is'. It needed a complete brake overhaul, new shocks, new tires, IOW thousands worth of work before it could get a licence. I saw it on the road the next day, same bald tires, nothing done but with new tags. He paid off someone to get it inspected. He had 4 kids in the van and was risking their lives. Some people seem not to care.

fire_man · Jul 16, 2014

DougA said:
You can find inspectors that are not as strict and not as knowledgeable but your prime concern is safety and if you do have a fire and if the insurance company can find fault in your stove/insert/chimney, your insurance will not pay.

This is hard to believe, because SOMETHING has to cause the fire, and if a problem develops with the chimney or stove leading to damage, the insurance company would be obligated to pay. Where does it say they don't pay if they find a problem?

DouggyD · Jul 16, 2014

Thanks again for the great info guys. No doubt that the chimney needs to be replaced and I do have a newer stainless chimney the same diameter to replace it. I had on company say I could go with a natural gas insert, with zero clearance again, I'm assuming. I think that is the route I would prefer to go with... Definitely don't want to do anything unsafe, that is why we haven't used the existing fireplace.

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