Put insert or stove in existing fireplace?

cookin2night · Jul 23, 2014

I have a jotul three that needs about $400 in replacement parts. The question is should I bother installing this stove or save for an insert? I already have a Dutch west on an interior wall on the other side of the house so this would be for additional heat on those real cold winter nights. Anyone have a similar setup like I have. 2600 ~ sq. foot center hall colonial with a garage on one end. Very typical in northern jersey. Have the existing stove on one side by the garage going into the kitchen then on the opposite side of the house have the fireplace on an exterior wall, propane heat besides wood fuel. Anyone have actual cost saving numbers from burning wood? This winter I'm really going to try to lower my propane bill. Can't afford anymore $1000 a month heating bills. Thanks for the advice, Joe

begreen · Jul 23, 2014

At $400 the parts will be equal to the worth of the stove. The 3 is a small stove. If your fireplace can accommodate a larger insert then you will get longer burn times and more heat. Considering you can get a basic medium sized insert for around $1000, I would consider selling the 3 for a low price and getting a bigger stove.

DickRussell · Jul 24, 2014

cookin2night said:
....I have. 2600 ~ sq. foot center hall colonial with a garage on one end. .... Have the existing stove on one side by the garage going into the kitchen then on the opposite side of the house have the fireplace on an exterior wall....Can't afford anymore $1000 a month heating bills.

Joe, if you are spending a grand on propane, per month (!), either you didn't lock in a decent rate when you could or that house leaks cold air like a sieve. To save that much on propane cost you will have to burn wood a good part of the time. Point source of heat in a leaky house will give you comfort close to the stove and progressively more discomfort as you get to the most remote parts of the house, especially due to drafts coming in. You will be better off in the long run by having someone come in some time early fall, when the air outside is cool enough for IR camera work, and do blower door-directed air sealing work. Typical hot spots to seal are at the sill in the basement, wiring and piping entry points, holes in upper story top plates for wiring coming down from the attic, and joints between fireplace and framing. Evidence of leaks into the attic like that are inability

Put your first money into improving the exterior shell, rather than looking for cheap heat. A tighter, better insulated house will give you far more comfort, and one that will be easier to heat with wood.

Ashful · Jul 24, 2014

cookin2night said:
I have a jotul three that needs about $400 in replacement parts. The question is should I bother installing this stove or save for an insert? I already have a Dutch west on an interior wall on the other side of the house so this would be for additional heat on those real cold winter nights. Anyone have a similar setup like I have. 2600 ~ sq. foot center hall colonial with a garage on one end. Very typical in northern jersey. Have the existing stove on one side by the garage going into the kitchen then on the opposite side of the house have the fireplace on an exterior wall, propane heat besides wood fuel. Anyone have actual cost saving numbers from burning wood? This winter I'm really going to try to lower my propane bill. Can't afford anymore $1000 a month heating bills. Thanks for the advice, Joe

Scale is different, but I have a similar situation. 4-square center-hall colonial (actually colonial, not a modern copy), with an addition and attached garage coming off the back. One stove in the original colonial, another in the addition. I'm not heating the entire house by wood, but I'm covering about 5800 sq.ft. of it with wood heat. Savings is subjective to how you would heat your house on oil or propane, as each cord of wood burned puts out the same BTUs as approximately $700 in oil, but actual savings is closer to $500 / cord for me. This is because I can control my oil-fired boiler on a timed thermostat, keeping it cool overnight or when I'm not home, whereas the stove has to be kept going 24/7 to have the house warm when I need it. I could burn 10 cords/year, saving perhaps $5k of my $7k total heating costs, if I could ever get far enough ahead on wood production.

PS - Your $1000/mo estimated heating bills is outrageous for such a small house. I suspect that number is off by a factor of 2x, or more.

TimfromMA · Jul 24, 2014

I live in a 2400 sqft house in central MA. Over the course of an entire year, I use 3 1/2 tons of pellets and 200 gallons of oil. Total cost of all that is $1800 for an average monthly cost of about $150. Unless you have zero insulation, you will come nowhere close to $500 a month for heat.

begreen · Jul 24, 2014

Some inserts to consider:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander-1-500-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Fireplace-Insert-13-NCI/100638341
http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/W...pe-1800-I-EPA-Wood-Insert-DB03125-p29113.html
http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/Wood-Fireplaces-Stoves-Inserts/Century-Heating-Wood-Insert-w-Blower-CW2500-p15787.html

All of these units will require well seasoned wood to perform efficiently. If you don't have a few cords of wood already stacked and seasoning get some now and get the driest wood you can. Try to avoid oak and hickory unless you are buying for the following season. Ash, soft maple, alder, fir will dry quicker. Avoid fresh cut and split wood unless stashing it a couple years ahead.

cookin2night · Jul 24, 2014

4$ a gallon with a 250 gallon tank. I meant per fill :-$.

Ashful · Jul 24, 2014

Whatever you do with a stove, definitely consider locking in some fuel now, at summer prices. We usually pre-buy 1000 gallons of oil when the prices bottom out.

branchburner · Jul 24, 2014

DickRussell said:
Put your first money into improving the exterior shell, rather than looking for cheap heat. A tighter, better insulated house will give you far more comfort, and one that will be easier to heat with wood.

Everything Dick said in his post here makes perfect sense, and is good advice.

I did exactly the opposite.

My fuel bill was also outrageous. By switching from 100% oil heat to 100% wood from my property, in a very leaky (but considerably smaller) antique house, I sought out cheap heat successfully to such a degree that I no longer care about having a tighter, better insulated house. I enjoy the entire process and have ample wood (even burning the waste slab and branch-wood of neighbors), so it doesn't matter to me if I could in theory get by with burning a bit less wood.

But that's just me.

cookin2night · Jul 24, 2014

I will try my best at doing both. I will properly insulate my house, and I can take advantage of a free test from the utility company to see where my leaks are. I will also put in the jotul stove in the fireplace. How many cords does anyone think that I would need assuming that the house is now well insulated? Having the jotul on one side and the Dutch west on the other side. My Dutch west is larger than my jotul. I have about 3 cords seasoned so far. Thanks for the experienced advice guys love this forum for all the knowledge that's shared.

Ashful · Jul 24, 2014

branchburner said:
I sought out cheap heat successfully to such a degree that I no longer care about having a tighter, better insulated house.

I dunno... I can see a day when ripping thru a cord of wood every 10 days gets old. If nothing else, my frugal nature nags at me, knowing I could be staying warm with less fuel.

I'm trying to do what I can to tighten up the house where I can, without messing at all with historic details. For me, this means adding interlocking metal stripping to existing vintage doors, refurbishing original windows, ditching the triple-track storms and installing well-fitted wooden storms. This house will never be as tight as a new house, but there's still plenty that can be done to save some fuel.

BrotherBart · Jul 24, 2014

I guarantee you that if you live long enough you will be grateful for having to deal with as few trees and and as little wood processing as possible.

I spent too many years beating the leaks, inefficient stove and insulation into submission with more wood.

cookin2night · Jul 24, 2014

begreen said:
Some inserts to consider:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander-1-500-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Fireplace-Insert-13-NCI/100638341
http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/W...pe-1800-I-EPA-Wood-Insert-DB03125-p29113.html
http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/Wood-Fireplaces-Stoves-Inserts/Century-Heating-Wood-Insert-w-Blower-CW2500-p15787.html

All of these units will require well seasoned wood to perform efficiently. If you don't have a few cords of wood already stacked and seasoning get some now and get the driest wood you can. Try to avoid oak and hickory unless you are buying for the following season. Ash, soft maple, alder, fir will dry quicker. Avoid fresh cut and split wood unless stashing it a couple years ahead.

I showed my wife the options you showed me and she had a bit of sticker shock for a moment. I think that's something I might consider in the future, replacing the jotul 3. For the mean time I think installing it will do me we'll for the supplemental heat when we are active. I have 2 acres of my own with downed trees still from sandy that I'm cleaning out and 7 acres from my father in law, a little over a mile away, that I can clean out for a while. I think once I clean out these lands I'll have to start being frugal. Anyone know what amount of acreage is self sustaining? My land total land that I have to work with is about 10 acres of deep woods with no pines at all. I live in north jersey what wood be considered upcountry at 1000' of elevation.

dafattkidd · Jul 24, 2014

We lived in this house for one winter and my oil bills were around $900/month in the coldest months. The first year I insulated a little bit, but the first major move I made was installing the insert. This allowed us to stay warm while we slowly tightened up the house. It cost me $2,600 and half a day to install, plus $225 for a cord of wood to get started. I immediately began saving on oil and staying way warmer. I have since spent a lot more money and countless hours on improving the house.

Improving the house is key, but by far the best move for me was installing the stove. If I did the house repairs first, then installed the insert, I would just be ready to install the insert this winter. I've burned wood for five winters and saved around $12,000 in fuel costs in that time. I heat around 2,000 sf, 1,700 is heated by wood. The other 300 is finished basement. I burn between 3 and four cords/winter. I hope that is helpful and helps answer some of your questions.

BrotherBart · Jul 24, 2014

Nothin wrong with staying warm while you tighten up the place.

Grisu · Jul 24, 2014

I think rule of thumb is about half cord hardwood per acre per year as sustainable harvest. You have 9 acres so roughly 5 cords; that could be enough. Still, try getting as many of those downed Sandy trees split and stacked as soon as possible. When it is kept dry, it will essentially last forever. When it is just lying on the ground it may soon be only mulch.

cookin2night · Jul 25, 2014

dafattkidd said:
We lived in this house for one winter and my oil bills were around $900/month in the coldest months. The first year I insulated a little bit, but the first major move I made was installing the insert. This allowed us to stay warm while we slowly tightened up the house. It cost me $2,600 and half a day to install, plus $225 for a cord of wood to get started. I immediately began saving on oil and staying way warmer. I have since spent a lot more money and countless hours on improving the house.

Improving the house is key, but by far the best move for me was installing the stove. If I did the house repairs first, then installed the insert, I would just be ready to install the insert this winter. I've burned wood for five winters and saved around $12,000 in fuel costs in that time. I heat around 2,000 sf, 1,700 is heated by wood. The other 300 is finished basement. I burn between 3 and four cords/winter. I hope that is helpful and helps answer some of your questions.

That's what I want to avoid, $900 a month heating bills. If this coming winter is anything like the last one. My electric bill hasn't been too bad though this year. Which leads me to believe that my insulation might not be too bad as well. My house was built in 1987. No walls of windows anywhere either.

TimfromMA · Jul 25, 2014

I no longer use my oil for heating. I get 99.9% of my heat from pellets. My house is a tad smaller than yours but I live further north. I use 3 1/2 tons of pellets all winter. A buddy of mine with a similar sized house who burns regular wood uses 3 - 4 cords per year. Depending on how warm you want the house and how well insulated you are, I think 3 cords is a good ball park figure of how much you'll use over a typical winter.

cookin2night · Jul 25, 2014

TimfromMA said:
I no longer use my oil for heating. I get 99.9% of my heat from pellets. My house is a tad smaller than yours but I live further north. I use 3 1/2 tons of pellets all winter. A buddy of mine with a similar sized house who burns regular wood uses 3 - 4 cords per year. Depending on how warm you want the house and how well insulated you are, I think 3 cords is a good ball park figure of how much you'll use over a typical winter.

That's nice. I have propane for the water heater and the range as well the boiler. I am thinking of putting intermittent igniters for the boiler and water heater. I keep the water heater at 120. I want to be at one delivery a year and I would be happy. Pellets are nice but I expensive to start up. I have a lot of free wood behind my house.

TimfromMA · Jul 26, 2014

Im too lazy for a wood stove. Pellets are alot less labor intensive. There probably as close to set and forget as you can get with a wood burning appliance. However, there is alot to be said to an abundance of free fuel.

Dix · Jul 26, 2014

Same climate, heating 2000 SF hugely spread, fairly well insulated, with mostly newer windows, splanch in the middle of Long Island. Heating with oil was between 200 - 250 gallons of oil a month Nov - April. Oil was going to $4 a gallon.

The first year of wood heat, I added the PE insert on the upper level (1000 SF) at a cost of $3000, plus $600 or so for firewood. Cut the oil bill in half (heat & HW) Insert paid for itself.

Added the Englander in the lower level the next year at a cost of $1000 for stove, hearth, chimney, plus I spent about $1000 for firewood. Way ahead of the game that year. Added an electric HWH, and viola, no oil. The electric bill went up about $75 a month for showers & dishes (cold water wash for the laundry).

I have since gotten smarter ( I think

) and turn the electric HWH off during the day when no one is home. Electric bill has gone down $80 a month. This year, I'm seriously considering putting it on a timer, for even more savings.

Welcome to the forums !

branchburner · Jul 26, 2014

Joful said:
I dunno... I can see a day when ripping thru a cord of wood every 10 days gets old. If nothing else, my frugal nature nags at me, knowing I could be staying warm with less fuel.

I feel that way on the very coldest and windiest days of the year, and start to wonder if my walls are really windows. But the fact is, with a downdraft stove that likes to burn HOT and can't be dialed down once cranking, I spend even more winter days wondering why I'm so warm in just a t-shirt and shorts. That's basically because our 2.2 cf stove is in the 400 sq ft where we do all our living (and a small house at that, an antique cape with low ceilings). I'm sure if I had a big old colonial, and/or a cat stove that could burn low, I'd be singing a different tune. (And in fact I'm thinking of trying out a cat stove.)

When I bought my stove (for $1200) the ROI versus burning oil paid off the cost of the stove before the first winter was over. I expect at most I'm burning an extra cord a year due to poor insulation and draftiness, so the return on tightening might take a decade or longer. Maybe someday I'll muster the will to give a crap... but not this summer. I'm too busy cutting the wood I'll be wasting a few winters from now.

cookin2night · Aug 3, 2014

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
Same climate, heating 2000 SF hugely spread, fairly well insulated, with mostly newer windows, splanch in the middle of Long Island. Heating with oil was between 200 - 250 gallons of oil a month Nov - April. Oil was going to $4 a gallon.

The first year of wood heat, I added the PE insert on the upper level (1000 SF) at a cost of $3000, plus $600 or so for firewood. Cut the oil bill in half (heat & HW) Insert paid for itself.

Added the Englander in the lower level the next year at a cost of $1000 for stove, hearth, chimney, plus I spent about $1000 for firewood. Way ahead of the game that year. Added an electric HWH, and viola, no oil. The electric bill went up about $75 a month for showers & dishes (cold water wash for the laundry).

I have since gotten smarter ( I think ) and turn the electric HWH off during the day when no one is home. Electric bill has gone down $80 a month. This year, I'm seriously considering putting it on a timer, for even more savings.

Welcome to the forums !

They do that in Europe, the timers on the water heaters. Good idea but if you forget how to program them than it's cold showers after ten pm.

Put insert or stove in existing fireplace?

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