Battery Holy Grail May Be Within Reach
- Thread starter BrotherBart
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
- Status
That would make owning something like the Chevy Volt, seem very practical. I hope we can get there.
Cool. I love that battery tech is finally moving forward, though it's got to make it hard for companies to develop production around a rapidly changing field.
Pen, the Volt is already a very practical car. Longer range would just sweeten the deal.
Pen, the Volt is already a very practical car. Longer range would just sweeten the deal.
In my neck of the rural woods, one is lucky to get 25 miles out of the battery of a volt, and with 15 miles in any direction from my area to anything, the volt just doesn't cut it unless this new battery stuff takes hold.
My sister-in-law is still hanging onto her '99 saturn with 200,000 miles on it that gets 35 miles per gallon on these roads day in and day out; the volt, once switched to gas, won't even get that around here as it stands.
I agree that the vehicle's design is good, just more has to happen from that battery for me to consider one, especially when considering the price tag.
pen
I am just concerned about yet another "can't do without" thing being tethered to the grid.
Being cut off from the Net would be bad enough. Not being able to make a beer run at the same time.
Being cut off from the Net would be bad enough. Not being able to make a beer run at the same time.
We're in hilly country and are getting a very regular 38-40mpg with the Volt when on gas. But that is infrequent, usually just at the tail end of a longer trip. 90+% of our driving is within the 40mi battery range. We just did a round trip to Portland which included a fair amount of 70-75 mph driving, all on gas. Mileage was 38.8mpg. In just about 6000 miles we are now on our 6th tank (9 gal) of gas. Note that the price dropped on the Volt this year by about $5000. When combined with the $7500 tax credit it is no more expensive than many other cars. I just checked and locally, after GM incentives and tax credit, it is selling for about $23K.
Last edited:
I haven't calculated that at all pen. For our last trip which was mostly on gas it was about $38 for hi-test fuel. That is more than the Prius we had prior which took regular gas and got 50+ mpg on trips. For the Prius the cost for the trip would have come in at about $28 for gas. But we only take trips like this a few times a year. For camping trips we use a VW camper. However as compared to the Prius, the pleasure and fun factor is much higher with the Volt. It is a much better car overall and we drive it mostly on electric. The electric running cost would have to factor in our solar generation and I don't have the time or patience to crunch out all those numbers now. On average the Volt adds about $10/month to our electric bill, which in summer is much less than our monthly solar electric generation. Next month I get my annual solar report (and check) and I will do the math. It's important to note that I didn't get the car just to have the books balance out. I do joy riding and extra trips on electric with the Volt that I haven't done for decades.
Mpodesta
Member
future is looking good for me finally being able to buy an EV that can make my round trip commute to work that doesn't cost 80,000$
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
my "round trip " commute is essentially about 13 miles in the winter (my office at the north plant) the one you came to BB, and about 6 miles to the south plant where I do what I do in the summer.
i'd consider getting an EV but I still need my truck for a whole lot of things. if I had to spend an hour in it a day it would be more of a selling point to me, but until they come out with an EV pickup that I can haul a ton of pellets (or a load of firewood for that matter) it would be hard for me to justify the change, bought the wife a Kia Soul a couple years ago, get high 30's to low 40's with it and its a fun little car to drive though its a bit underpowered its nimble enough for me to play on the parkway and the seating arrangement doesn't make you feel your "cheeks" are dragging the asphalt, like a lot of small cars seem at least to me.
i'd consider getting an EV but I still need my truck for a whole lot of things. if I had to spend an hour in it a day it would be more of a selling point to me, but until they come out with an EV pickup that I can haul a ton of pellets (or a load of firewood for that matter) it would be hard for me to justify the change, bought the wife a Kia Soul a couple years ago, get high 30's to low 40's with it and its a fun little car to drive though its a bit underpowered its nimble enough for me to play on the parkway and the seating arrangement doesn't make you feel your "cheeks" are dragging the asphalt, like a lot of small cars seem at least to me.
Mpodesta
Member
I end up doing around 130mi to and from work. Right now I have an 05 neon that will be hitting 250k soon. I dont need anything fun or zippy to get to work, just economical and comfortable.
in the stable we have:
my 05 neon commuter: 30+- mpg
wifes 07 v8 avalanche: 17-20
my hauler 86 F350 DRW, loaded with 14ton tag along: 5mpg
73 Mg midget: 10-15 ish
in the stable we have:
my 05 neon commuter: 30+- mpg
wifes 07 v8 avalanche: 17-20
my hauler 86 F350 DRW, loaded with 14ton tag along: 5mpg
73 Mg midget: 10-15 ish
Seasoned Oak
Minister of Fire
Seasoned Oak
Minister of Fire
Low cost residential solar is right behind the improves batteries. We may soon see the day where its cheaper or more cost effective to buy an EV and charge it from panels on your garage roof ,than it is to buy a GAS powered transport and put $50+ in the tank every weekI am just concerned about yet another "can't do without" thing being tethered to the grid.
Being cut off from the Net would be bad enough. Not being able to make a beer run at the same time.
Our area is nothing but up and down hills. Yes, power is used to go up a hill, but there is some compensating regen charge going downhill too. If one doesn't drive with a lead foot we are getting a realistic range of 40 miles in the summer. The Volt computer bases range calculations on an average of your previous runs so the number is reasonably accurate if the driving pattern is the same.
Vic99
Minister of Fire
I'd love to see how they scale up the Li anode for an EV or for home wind/solar storage.
I've had a volt for 9 months and put 9,700 miles on it. This summer I'm getting around 50 miles per charge (record is 54). In winter it was 35-40 miles. I typically drive terrain that is 50% flat and 50% rolling hills, I think.
The Volt has exceeded my expectations as I'm currently driving 91% of miles on electric and just hit the lifetime 206 mpg mark. Coupled with PV on the roof and the ability to charge at work and about 24k with rebates and haggling with 0% financing it didn't take much thought for us.
Although none of my buddies drive luxury or sports cars, all my friends that I let drive it say, "whoa".
I've had a volt for 9 months and put 9,700 miles on it. This summer I'm getting around 50 miles per charge (record is 54). In winter it was 35-40 miles. I typically drive terrain that is 50% flat and 50% rolling hills, I think.
The Volt has exceeded my expectations as I'm currently driving 91% of miles on electric and just hit the lifetime 206 mpg mark. Coupled with PV on the roof and the ability to charge at work and about 24k with rebates and haggling with 0% financing it didn't take much thought for us.
Although none of my buddies drive luxury or sports cars, all my friends that I let drive it say, "whoa".
I don't see LI ever being affordable for onsite storage. The Aquion battry look like a better match http://www.aquionenergy.com/. Hard to match simple
This link from 2011:
http://www.energystoragenews.com/Aq...rge scale stationary storage applications.htm
suggests targeted costs of $300/kWh 'at volume' and tests out at 2000 cycles and calendar life at 2 years.
My Li-based Leaf battery is $270/kWh, produced at volume now, is likely good for 1000-2000 cycles and a calendar life of >5 years?
Any better numbers for Aquion more recently?
http://www.energystoragenews.com/Aq...rge scale stationary storage applications.htm
suggests targeted costs of $300/kWh 'at volume' and tests out at 2000 cycles and calendar life at 2 years.
My Li-based Leaf battery is $270/kWh, produced at volume now, is likely good for 1000-2000 cycles and a calendar life of >5 years?
Any better numbers for Aquion more recently?
Have been watching this tech develop for large scale onsite storage:
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/01/renewable-energy-breakthrough/
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/01/renewable-energy-breakthrough/
Have been watching this tech develop for large scale onsite storage. Sustainable Innovation already has a flow battery, but this development could drop costs considerably.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/01/renewable-energy-breakthrough/
http://www.sustainableinnov.com/products/halo-gen/
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/01/renewable-energy-breakthrough/
http://www.sustainableinnov.com/products/halo-gen/
Seasoned Oak
Minister of Fire
Aquion costs, http://gigaom.com/2014/07/20/behind...-battery-factory-the-future-of-solar-storage/
looks like they are now claim 3000 cycles and 8 years. I am not sure where the leaf battery cost, $270 per kWH you refer to comes from . I had seen a recent article that Nissan was heavily subsidizing battery replacements which some people took to mean that the battery cost was far lower than the actual cost to make them. http://www.greencarreports.com/news...attery-replacement-loses-money-company-admits
I just look at the materials and complexity of the two technologies and the Aquions should have far lower material cost and far easier fabrication than a LI battery. LIs definitely has the power density and seem to be the future for mobile applications. Of course with new tech is all comes down how much money the company has to pay back the VC folks who developed it.
Of course Chevy and some other firms are betting that as the LI batterys lose capacity for mobile use that they can be shifted over to stationary use. I expect if Tesla starts cranking them out, the "seconds" will get shipped over for grid storage.
I have an small array all ready to do some testing as the gird inverter is getting old and finding one to replace it is going to be tough.
looks like they are now claim 3000 cycles and 8 years. I am not sure where the leaf battery cost, $270 per kWH you refer to comes from . I had seen a recent article that Nissan was heavily subsidizing battery replacements which some people took to mean that the battery cost was far lower than the actual cost to make them. http://www.greencarreports.com/news...attery-replacement-loses-money-company-admits
I just look at the materials and complexity of the two technologies and the Aquions should have far lower material cost and far easier fabrication than a LI battery. LIs definitely has the power density and seem to be the future for mobile applications. Of course with new tech is all comes down how much money the company has to pay back the VC folks who developed it.
Of course Chevy and some other firms are betting that as the LI batterys lose capacity for mobile use that they can be shifted over to stationary use. I expect if Tesla starts cranking them out, the "seconds" will get shipped over for grid storage.
I have an small array all ready to do some testing as the gird inverter is getting old and finding one to replace it is going to be tough.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
