Progress

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begreen

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
104,666
South Puget Sound, WA
It looks like the number of workers in the solar industry has surpassed those working in the coal industry. Based on local activity this growth continues unabated. The company that installed our system had 4 full time worker when they installed it a bit over 2 years ago. They now have 35 employees and are booked solid.

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-has-more-solar-workers-than-coal-miners-2014-7
 
WA state has two panel factories. The state incentives are heavily biased toward using WA state made products. SolarWorld panels are made in Hillsboro, OR. I think they are the largest US manufacturer.
 
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stoveguy2esw said:
now if the factories making these panels were located in WV and KY so the people who are living there could have the jobs created to replace the jobs lost by the conversion it would be perfect
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Agreed. However, this requires that these states stop fighting progress, embrace and even encourage change.
The same state subsidies that have historically supported fossil fuels could be incentives for solar panel production.
 
easy to say, harder to do. especially when you are looking at a situation where you are being put out of a job with at best the possibility of a new job sometime in the future.

youre asking folks to take quite the leap of faith considering the generations of people and communities who have relied on this industry to basically just walk away from it and hope that somthing else will be there to take over (especially when literally nothing has been said about helping the coal communities transition from coal to "progress".)
 
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I think of it something like working at Blockbuster videos.
At some point you just need to face up to the eventuality that is Redbox and NetFlix.
 
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semipro said:
However, this requires that these states stop fighting progress, embrace and even encourage change.
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I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the citizens of WV (well, maybe the "hill people"...). What you perceive as fighting progress, they perceive as trying to feed their families. If those coal jobs go away, and there's no new employer in town, that's a tough situation for a lot of folks.

We saw the same thing locally, with the steel plants dwindling, then closing. Eventually, tech companies came in and revitalized the area, but not before the better part of a generation was ruined.
 
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Joful said:
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the citizens of WV (well, maybe the "hill people"...). What you perceive as fighting progress, they perceive as trying to feed their families. If those coal jobs go away, and there's no new employer in town, that's a tough situation for a lot of folks.

We saw the same thing locally, with the steel plants dwindling, then closing. Eventually, tech companies came in and revitalized the area, but not before the better part of a generation was ruined.
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you explained it better than i did, but thats the point i was trying to make
 
Yes, it takes leadership with the vision to anticipate change. Instead a lot of "leaders" today are actually "followers" of the one that contributes the most to their campaign funds. Nevermind that the same contributor may be off-shoring their taxes and company the next year.

It is inevitable that clean energy is getting harder and more expensive to get. And populations continue to grow. This will change the equation for most of the planet eventually, like it or not. If we would stop wasting time and money on wars we could be a long way down the road toward new job creation and alternative technologies.
 
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begreen said:
It is inevitable that clean energy is getting harder and more expensive to get. And populations continue to grow. This will change the equation for most of the planet eventually, like it or not.
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There certainly seems to be a price floor to clean energy. The floor on PV panels seems to be around $0.78/W. It will be interesting to see how long panels rest in this range before prices are driven upward by internal inflation and deflation of currency value.
 
begreen said:
If we would stop wasting time and money on wars we could be a long way down the road toward new job creation and alternative technologies.
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Don't neglect the reality that the vast majority of our technology has come out of spending on war technology. WW2 gave us nuclear technology, and nuclear energy. The cold war gave us the space program, and hence more rapid development in computing and materials science (actually, the creation of the entire field of materials science) than any other sector of our economy. War = incentive for very rapid technology growth.
 
All of those technologies could develop without war. The cold war is not a war. I am at a loss to explain what exactly have we gained from the Korean, Vietnam, Iraq I&II and Afghan wars.
 
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begreen said:
The cold war is not a war. I am at a loss to explain what exactly have we gained from the Korean, Vietnam, Iraq I&II and Afghan wars.
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Definitely with you there, begreen... but remember: Korea was not a war. It was a "Police Action." >>

Iraq 1 did actually have a somewhat significant impact on technology, giving us the first major opportunity to test out our latest modern warfare systems (smart bombs, early theater warfare, comm systems, etc.), and also incentivising the next decade's development of phased-array radar systems, millimeter wave satellite comm, etc. The internet and cellular telecom have benefited enormously from this technology.
 
I should also note that computers, radio and television, the internet, enormous medical advances etc. all happened outside of war. Yes war may push technological development, but that doesn't speak highly of mankind. We can and should do better.
 
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begreen said:
I should also note that computers, radio and television, the internet, enormous medical advances etc. all happened outside of war. Yes war may push technological development, but that doesn't speak highly of mankind. We can and should do better.
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Can't argue with that. Was just stating the facts, not any commentary on the ethics. I agree we should do better, but accept that we probably won't.
 
begreen said:
All of those technologies could develop without war. The cold war is not a war. I am at a loss to explain what exactly have we gained from the Korean, Vietnam, Iraq I&II and Afghan wars.
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Yeah that old thing about technology we gained from wars wore out a long time ago. Around 1957.
 
We have followed the work all over this country every since the Pilgrims got off of the boats.

Sometimes Texans get stuck in Virginia for 30 years from an 18 month temporary assignment. >>

ETA: I was catching my usual Monday morning flight out of DFW airport in 1982 when it seemed that entire state of Michigan was moving to Texas for work. The lady that rang up my newspaper purchase said "We just moved here from Michigan and really love your state.". I said "If you paid your property and sales taxes it is your state too, darlin.".
 
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Joful said:
Don't neglect the reality that the vast majority of our technology has come out of spending on war technology. WW2 gave us nuclear technology, and nuclear energy. The cold war gave us the space program, and hence more rapid development in computing and materials science (actually, the creation of the entire field of materials science) than any other sector of our economy. War = incentive for very rapid technology growth.
Click to expand...

Joful said:
Iraq 1 did actually have a somewhat significant impact on technology, giving us the first major opportunity to test out our latest modern warfare systems (smart bombs, early theater warfare, comm systems, etc.), and also incentivising the next decade's development of phased-array radar systems, millimeter wave satellite comm, etc. The internet and cellular telecom have benefited enormously from this technology.
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The "incentive" is a hundreds of billions defense budget. Spend that amount of government money during peace times on research and you will get similar progress. Maybe even a lot more stuff that actually helps people instead of killing them. Have the government budget the same amount and make comparable demands to energy, pharmaceutical, telecom etc. industry and we'll have a lot more progress in those areas.
 
BrotherBart said:
We have followed the work all over this country every since the Pilgrims got off of the boats.

Sometimes Texans get stuck in Virginia for 30 years from an 18 month temporary assignment. >>

ETA: I was catching my usual Monday morning flight out of DFW airport in 1982 when it seemed that entire state of Michigan was moving to Texas for work. The lady that rang up my newspaper purchase said "We just moved here from Michigan and really love your state.". I said "If you paid your property and sales taxes it is your state too, darlin.".
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True true. But this thread is more about creating new work for others to follow.
 
Nothing is created out of whole cloth. Something goes down when something else comes up.

Well, the one exception was cell phones. And after years of creating new traffic even that one is starting to take down wireline traffic.
 
Yes, productivity went down when Amazon and Facebook started rising.
 
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