RE: All wheel drive question

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NE WOOD BURNER said:
I bought they forester for my girl so that she would have AWD for our hills very steep and unmaintained at the times of travel. It had new all seasons and it was and is awful for stopping. The ABS just locks up and will slide out of control. Most I know with subarus are pulling out the abs fuse so they can run all seasons. I chose to put 4 winter tires on it. much safer! still My girl would rather drive the VW GTI with studded snows as it is better in the bad weather and snow. So the forester is for sale with low miles.
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We had the Nokian WR on ours which are rated "all-weather" and handle really well in snow and ice. Unfortunately, they are loosing their thread really quickly and I probably would not put them on again. For stopping, I am insisting on driving manual. That saved my skin already a few times.
 
I'm a car mechanic and my wife drives a Subaru Outback. Great car . My sister in law has a Nissan Rogue and is on her 3rd transmission. Not very reliable.I drive a Jeep Wrangler and my wifes Subaru is great in the snow . We go to Vermont on a regular basis and have never gotten stuck with the Outback.
 
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jharkin said:
And now not all Subarus are equal either. The newest Legacy I heard now has some sort of lesser... not completely full time 50/50 torque AWD system to get to 30+ mpg EPA ratings. The outbacks should still be the traditional setup.


To jags point.. I have no idea if my pilot could drive up a hil in 6 inches of snow... It might actually do fine? I just never have had reason to test it on unplowed roads. I have been in rides in a subaru down unploughed dirt fire roads through a half a foot or more and it just keeps going.
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When I had the Legacy it was so much fun that I would look for unplowed parking lots just to play in.
 
Grisu said:
For stopping, I am insisting on driving manual. That saved my skin already a few times.
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Agree with a standard! Especially with a Subaru.
I have rebuilt many a Subaru! They do have a following that has brand loyalty.
They do however have a high cost of ownership with the many cats on the exhaust and multiple o2 sensors. The boxer engine has had a continuous head gasket issue since the mid 80's. enough for many to join in on a class action lawsuit against Subaru. If you are a DIY these costs are minimal but takes time to repair head gaskets correctly. If you purchase I highly recommend fluid checks at every fuel up. and make sure you have a temp gauge and shut off at first sign of temperature rise and tow in. this saves much machine time on heads and waiting time if head is cracked. Stop by a machine shop and ask questions about the heads. very educational.
My experience is that the front wheel drive GTI(6 speed manual w/studded snows)is more popular to drive in my household with 70000 miles on a 2011 and only 49000 on the 2009 Subaru automatic. and of course the golf R is awd but more money and horsepower.
IMHO and experience and the VW is better on fuel!
 
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NE WOOD BURNER said:
... The boxer engine has had a continuous head gasket issue since the mid 80's. enough for many to join in on a class action lawsuit against Subaru. If you are a DIY these costs are minimal but takes time to repair head gaskets correctly. If you purchase I highly recommend fluid checks at every fuel up. and make sure you have a temp gauge and shut off at first sign of temperature rise and tow in. this saves much machine time on heads and waiting time if head is cracked. Stop by a machine shop and ask questions about the heads. very educational.
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Does re-torquing the head bolts help prevent head gasket problems on these? I know it did on some aluminum head engines.
Maybe they've gone to the newer stress-yield head bolts and you can't re-torque.
 
NE WOOD BURNER said:
Agree with a standard! Especially with a Subaru.
I have rebuilt many a Subaru! They do have a following that has brand loyalty.
They do however have a high cost of ownership with the many cats on the exhaust and multiple o2 sensors. The boxer engine has had a continuous head gasket issue since the mid 80's. enough for many to join in on a class action lawsuit against Subaru. If you are a DIY these costs are minimal but takes time to repair head gaskets correctly. If you purchase I highly recommend fluid checks at every fuel up. and make sure you have a temp gauge and shut off at first sign of temperature rise and tow in. this saves much machine time on heads and waiting time if head is cracked. Stop by a machine shop and ask questions about the heads. very educational.
My experience is that the front wheel drive GTI(6 speed manual w/studded snows)is more popular to drive in my household with 70000 miles on a 2011 and only 49000 on the 2009 Subaru automatic. and of course the golf R is awd but more money and horsepower.
IMHO and experience and the VW is better on fuel!
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My wife's current Outback Legacy is an automatic . . . and honestly it has been fantastic in the snow.

No issues with the cats or O2 sensors (unlike my Accord . . . but at 191K or so I can live with the check engine light being on). Like most other folks with the 2.5 liter engine we did have to have the head gasket changed out when we started having issues at around 115K. Fortunately, a local guy who pretty much only works on Subarus was able to do this (and change out the timing belt (or was it the chain?), water pump, etc. at the same time at a decent price. Supposedly Subaru re-designed the 2.5 liter engine a couple years back . . . although I still wouldn't be surprised to see future issues with the head gasket since for many years they've been tweaking the head gasket and coming up with "solutions" that folks optimistically think will fix the problem . . . only to see the head gasket issue appear down the road . .. then again . . . perhaps with a whole new engine? Other than the head gasket and the usual wear and tear items -- brakes, oil changes, etc. it has been pretty reliable . . . although like most Subarus it does use some oil so I have to keep an eye on that item.

Oh yeah, I did have one recent issue . . . temp spiked a few times. Brought it to one mechanic who said he couldn't find the problem, but suggested it could be a bad head gasket or cracked head. Brought it to the guy who did the head gasket who found a pin hole leak in the radiator and changed out the thermostat . . . but still had the problem . . . at which point he said it could be a cracked head head. Spoke to the mechanic here at the station who did a bit of research for me though and found a TSB from Subaru that suggested replacing the radiator cap and shortening (and beveling) the coolant overflow tube after flushing the overflow reservoir. For $13 I bought a new cap, spent 10 minutes flushing the reservoir and cutting the tube . . . so far, so good.
 
The wife and I have owned 4 different models of Subaru between us (Outback, Legacy, Forester, and even an ugly Baja)- all fantastic in snow, never a head gasket, exhaust, converter or other issue mentioned. Almost 100K on my Forester (with which I pull an enclosed loaded trailer on occasion) and what it needs most is for me to tighten up the rattly heat shield. That's it.

Next car will likely be another Subie
 
Multiple cats and 02 sensors are a fact of life on all new vehicles. the Tacoma I just bought has 4 cats and at least as many 02s.... and that engine is a ~ 10 year old design.
 
Adios Pantalones said:
The wife and I have owned 4 different models of Subaru between us (Outback, Legacy, Forester, and even an ugly Baja)- all fantastic in snow, never a head gasket, exhaust, converter or other issue mentioned. Almost 100K on my Forester (with which I pull an enclosed loaded trailer on occasion) and what it needs most is for me to tighten up the rattly heat shield. That's it.

Next car will likely be another Subie
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Did any of those have the 2.5 liter engine . . . honestly, they are notorious for head gaskets going at something north of 100,000 miles . . . seems as though other engines such as the 2.0 liters tend to fare a bit better.

Baja huh . . . I always wondered how bought those things . . . better question . . . what possessed you to do so? ;)

Ah yes, the rattling heat shield . . . had one of those . . . all rusted . . . read some forum debate on how important it is . . . in the end I pulled it off . . . no issues . . . but then again my wife is also not in the habit of driving her car in the middle of dry hay fields so I think we're safe. :)
 
Sold a car to a guy who just started a machine shop last year. He is funding his start up costs through the local Subaru dealer doing warranty work.
He said its a 60/40 chance of getting a bad one.
I was interested as I have worked on hundreds of subarus pre 93. I was surprised how they are trying to keep their roots by holding onto the under powered boxer engine that was such a proven performer, in this day and age where speeds are higher and emission related add ons and fuel quality have increased temps on this weak link of the boxer design.
so I would recommend if a Subaru is the one that fits your needs that you consider extended warranty and make sure if you finance that your finance term is within in your warranty period.
The higher stance and good approach and departures angles are helpful through that pre spring early mud season if your on a dirt road.
 
firefighterjake said:
Did any of those have the 2.5 liter engine . . . honestly, they are notorious for head gaskets going at something north of 100,000 miles . . . seems as though other engines such as the 2.0 liters tend to fare a bit better.
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I've read that this issue is related to the coolant. Newer Subarus are quite particular about their antifreeze. If the system is flushed when the timing belt is replaced and regular antifreeze is put in problems often seem to follow. Only Subaru antifreeze is recommended.
 
Glad to see this thread. While my neighbor is on vacation he left his Outback with me. Drove it a couple of times and kinda like it. But this thread has me thinking Hyundai again.

At least it would maintain my record of never owning anything not built between LA and Atlanta (Well except for that V-8 Triumph Tr-8 that I scrapped.). The Hyundai plant's in Alabama.
 
begreen said:
I've read that this issue is related to the coolant... Only Subaru antifreeze is recommended.
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I'd really like to see the reasoning on that. Do they have a galvanic problem in their design, or some other reason?
 
Yeah I would like to see the answer to that myself. Ethylene glycol is well, ethylene glycol. And Subie's is green like everybody else's. Which is kinda a clue.
 
Joful said:
I'd really like to see the reasoning on that. Do they have a galvanic problem in their design, or some other reason?
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I'll see if I can dig it up. Had to do with aluminum heads if I recall correctly.
 
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"Proper maintenance costs more, and that’s just not popular, as a result the market place just doesn’t allow for it."
This is the reason that the Subaru has a higher cost of ownership. Remember all those diagnostic tests are an added expense.
I agree that all new cars and trucks have very poor recommended service intervals. In New England the service interval is 3000 miles. I agree with a non dealer, non lube center maintenance technician.
The Subaru is a price point car that has extended service intervals that have no relationship to the design and engineering of a boxer engine. The boxer design was an air cooled engine that has seen many retrofits and redesigns to keep it in the game.
BMW motorcycles have realized this and have a strong inline engine line to compete.
This article is a great explanation of many aspects of maintenance and marketing.
 
When I had the Legacy it was so much fun that I would look for unplowed parking lots just to play in.
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Me too. I can't say enough good things about driving a Subaru in the snow. I did once almost get stuck playing about in a hilly parking lot, the snow was up to the headlamps, and I could barely open the door, but all it took to get me free was a little scooping of snow from the rear tires, and away I went again. More pertinent to this forum, I've used my Subaru to drag logs out of the woods.

I did find it (2.5L) to be sluggish, and even our last Outback (2008?) developed the head gasket problem at 100K, and had several smaller issues, together with a growing family meant we were without a Subaru for the first time in 16 years. When the snow falls, I do miss it.

TE
 
begreen said:
When I had the Legacy it was so much fun that I would look for unplowed parking lots just to play in.
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With my Outback (the one before this one, it hasn't really snowed since), I liked to get on an icy road and slam on the brakes. Nothing happened, except the car stopped. Of course that's the anti-lock brakes more than the AWD.

I don't know if it's really better than other AWD systems, since I haven't driven any others. But I've certainly heard a lot of anecdotal evidence that it's the case (including in this thread). Years ago I saw a display at the Subaru dealership to support their claim, basically little scale models of the various systems. The Subaru one was totally symmetric, looking like it'd been designed that way from the ground up. Most if not all ot the others looked like they were originally 2WD and a "wart" had been added to allow drive to the other two wheels.

I had a 1997 Ouback to well over 100K miles and my 2006 is pushing about 90K, and I've never had head gasket problems. However, I am pretty meticulous about maintenance, including using Subaru brand anti-freeze (though people at legacygt.com swear it's no different).
 
While the systems are something to consider, the tires mean just as much. Most of the stock tires stink in bad weather. If buying brand new, get them to put soem legit tires on that vehicle!! I have seen dozens of Subarus get stuck trying to drive up the hill right next to the service/dealer.

We have a Pilot and it is great in bad weather. I have some great tires on it. Sure it is not true all wheel, especially over 20 MPH but only extreme driving needs that anyway. The guys that are usually off the road in the woods are those with 4WD who think you can do anything you want with 4WD...
 
RustyShackleford said:
I don't know if it's really better than other AWD systems, since I haven't driven any others. But I've certainly heard a lot of anecdotal evidence that it's the case (including in this thread).
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Maybe. I suspect very few Subaru owners have had a lot of opportunity to test out the AWD systems of Mercedes and Audi in variable bad weather conditions, so it's very difficult to find direct comparisons from people having a lot of experience with multiple different brands of similar vintage. Over the last five years, I've owned an Audi Quattro, a Mercedes M-Class with 4MATIC AWD, and a Volvo V50 2.5T AWD, and I think they're all very good. Possibly better than Subaru, but who can compare? I haven't driven a Subaru since I was a teenager, and was not impressed, but we're talking antique AWD technology there. I am sure they have improved significantly, since.
 
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gpcollen1 said:
While the systems are something to consider, the tires mean just as much. Most of the stock tires stink in bad weather. If buying brand new, get them to put soem legit tires on that vehicle!! I have seen dozens of Subarus get stuck trying to drive up the hill right next to the service/dealer. Agree 100% . . . whatever vehicle she gets I plan to get some spare rims and buy some decent snow tires for the winter.

We have a Pilot and it is great in bad weather. I have some great tires on it. Sure it is not true all wheel, especially over 20 MPH but only extreme driving needs that anyway. The guys that are usually off the road in the woods are those with 4WD who think you can do anything you want with 4WD... I guess this is the part that confuses me . . . so a vehicle like the Pilot is just 2WD once it goes over a set speed . . . this would worry me since to me it seems as though part of the appeal of AWD is always having it ready to engage if you're driving along at 45 or 50 mph on your way to work and hit a slick spot while driving in "marginal" weather when the temps are hovering around 32 degrees F . . . or you're driving along after a snow storm and are driving under the speed limit (say 45 mph), but over the limit at which the AWD engages.)
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Be aware that some cars, like my Ford, have tire pressure devices attached to the rims. Aftermarket rims don't have them, and you'll get tire pressure warnings constantly. A friend of ours bought a Saab and had the same problem. A piece of tape over the light "cured" it until the summer rims went back on the car.
 
When you buy a new car in New England you should negotiate the extra wheels and tires and now the TPMS also. unless you buy VW or Porsch no Sensors in the wheels, if you buy the right model. If not Tirerack.com
 
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