Power Costs

Joful raises a good point. What is the heated square footage of an old house ?
If I measure the outside perimeter, I get the largest number. But with 2 foot thick walls, the interior number is quite different.
Then if the unused spaces such as closed cavities, bricked up chimneys etc. are subtracted, the number drops further.
Using the exterior dimensions, the BTU/HDD/ft2 is ok but using a number calculated from usable interior measurements, it is not so rosy.

jharkin said:

Right now I can only dream of haivng tje kind of space you guys have... someday....

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I'm looking forward to downsizing someday. More square footage just means more to clean, paint, and repair. I came close to full panic attack shortly after moving in, and getting a good handle on just how many windows needed a full rebuild.

jharkin said:

I dont want to speak for Joful, but I think the size of his place and hte stone construction are bigger factors in his numbers than just the age. If you normalized it for square footage he probably is doing fairly good considering the age of house.

In fact if we calculate BTU/HDD/ft2 my place probably ranks right up there with Joful. I was consuming around 15 BTU/HDD/ft2 gross (about 12 on a net basis after stack losses) when I moved in... got that down to around 11 gross/9 net with insulation upgrades, and that is likely as good as its ever gonna get here.

Modern code and super efficient heating gets under 5 I believe??....

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11.08 BTU/HDD/ft2 for my place. Not bad considering there is zero wall insulation as it is solid masonry...guess relative lack of air infiltration goes a long way.

3600sq/ft (basement is technically conditioned space)
4711 HDD
188,043,700 heating season BTU

Ok, I fired up my energy use spreadsheet and I get low 9's BTU/HDD/ft2 if I use the perimeter square footage of our place.
I guess it's time for another IR camera session in January to see if there is any obvious, fixable heat losses left to be found. I suspect that we are solidly on a path of diminishing returns...

Swedishchef said:

Everyone may hate me for saying this but... $0.068/kWh, $250 for a cord of wood.

3 cords per year: $750
Electricity (April 2013-April 2014): $1172.
Total: $1972.

That is total energy costs for a house that is 1300 sq ft (the basement is heated as well, that's where my stove is located). Not to mention my wife / 2 kids are home all day long (so we heat it 24/7...I tend to turn down the heat if nobody is in the house slightly) and the price includes hot water.

Andrew

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Andrew, they are going to hate me as well......

3 to 5 Cords a year: Free !!
Electricity: now on a flat rate of 92$ / month, but at $0.068/kWh, it is still 1352 kwh per month, still too much.... but everything here is electric (range, oven, hot water heater).

That is total energy costs for a house that is 2000 sq ft (plus the basement, 1000sqft, is heated as well, that's where my stove is located). Not to mention my wife / 3 kids are home all day long (so we heat it 24/7...I tend to turn down the heat if nobody is in the house slightly) and the price includes hot water.

So my total energy bills:
Electricity: 1104$
I guess I will add 40$ of propane for the gas BBQ

So total energy bill for one year is under 1200$.

I am still try to convince myself of investing in a wood boiler, I am trying real hard.... but I am not there yet.........

let see, 249,660,000 btu per year/ 12,636 hdd / 2455 sqr feet if you include the garage gives me 8.6. at the stack. or 199,728,000/ 6.4 actualized with my 80% boiler. Also includes my DHW

not too bad, but my next home i hope to get well below that.

also, i expect the above numbers to change as the BTUs were the previous owner. I have added the pellet stove to the mix and expect that i will be smarter with my temperature settings. The house has 3 temp zones in the house, plus the garage, and the previous owner had all 4 'stats set to 70 every day all day.

yrock87 said:

also, i expect the above numbers to change as the BTUs were the previous owner. I have added the pellet stove to the mix and expect that i will be smarter with my temperature settings. The house has 3 temp zones in the house, plus the garage, and the previous owner had all 4 'stats set to 70 every day all day.

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Family of 6 here so that means 2+ loads of dishes and 2-4 loads of laundry daily. Average power bill is between $90 and 120 per month and that includes natural gas for the hot water. Average power use is between 600 and 800 kWh depending on the month. Heat is 100% wood with the furnace set at 55 to prevent freezing if we are away. House is 2300 square feet and fairly well insulated. R40 ceilings, R13 walls, new windows in the past 5 years.

Family of 2:

House in town - 1000 sq ft 2002-built 1/2 duplex. $91/month electricity bill (all electric house). I work from home so have the heat on during the day - if it weren't for that it would be about $78/month. Rates start at $0.0752/kWh and then go to $0.1127/kWh after the first 1350 kWh/month. Only downside is the neighbour who owns the other 1/2 of the duplex has 3 giant German Shepherds that try to kill our cat at every opportunity (and the dogs can be really noisy early in the morning).

Weekend cabin - 900 sq ft 1950's 1 1/2 story off-grid house. Small amount of insulation in walls, none in floors or attic (thinking about it - floor will likely be done soon, the attic is more complicated). About 1.5 cords/yr, stove oil ~$1000/yr (that's cooking, heat and hot water for the months we can't just have solar showers and cook on the BBQ), electricity - um, complicated. We pay $1000/yr but Mom and Dad subsidize massively (also thinking about our own off-grid renewable electricity system - haven't taken the plunge yet as finances are still tight after reno-ing the cabin itself). I don't feel entirely that having parental subsidy is a cop-out as they are the ones who refuse to consider renewables to get the generator bill down. If we are comparing expensive/embarrassing bills, the generator fuel bill (diesel) is $30 000/yr, and that is split (unevenly) between 5 households.

this will make the solar folks happy! http://www.wcvb.com/money/national-...m=facebook&utm_campaign=wcvb+channel+5+boston. read earlier today , the rate payers on Nantucket will increase 100%. total kw cost out there $.24+. there will be as many solar ads as political ads. claim is not enough pipeline capacity for nat gas and closing plants. all this with gas as cheap as it has been in years. sounds like a really good plan from where I sit.

Doug MacIVER said:

this will make the solar folks happy!

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The article referenced National Grid (electric utility serving most of Mass excepting Boston) forecasting winter electric rates to increase by 37%. Their spokeswoman states this is due to higher anticipated energy supply costs. That's Utility Speak for "The Generators are charging more so we'll be passing that higher cost right on to you". Noteworthy is the last sentence in the article which says Natural Gas customers may see their winter bill slightly lower.

This may make you mad, but it all really does make sense. The last 15 years has seen the closure (retirement) of a dozen+ large old power plants (all coal & oil, possibly VT Yankee too) in the North East. All replaced (if replaced) by small higher efficiency combined cycle combustion turbines. All these are powered by natural gas, but some jurisdictions have mandated dual fuel (#2 oil) capability with several days supply on site. Some jurisdictions have actually prohibited the dual fuel capability for fear of any oil spills (much to the happiness of the builder as his costs are much lower).

This was generally considered positive as the cleaner fuel was used in an ever larger percentage of the "Electric Generation" pie. The price went up a bit but probably not as much as if all the old plants were re-powered with "clean tech".

Unfortunately along comes a colder than average winter and the Nat Gas pipelines into NE are already running at capacity on a good day. OFO's are issued, home heat customers get priority, industrial buyers get supply cut, all the Turbines who can must switch to Oil at a 300% fuel cost increase, and the Electric Utility simply passes the cost on to the customer in the next bill.

The real danger was last winter when ISO-NE had real concerns about Capacity and Reserve Shortages, and were steps away from implementing power reduction procedures, which always include brownouts and/or rolling blackouts. If you hear any news releases about "record gas sendouts" at the same time they are talking about frozen harbors & rivers preventing #2 oil barge deliveries, get your generators ready.

CaptSpiff said:

The article referenced National Grid (electric utility serving most of Mass excepting Boston)

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NStar services much of greater Boston west to Worcester, all of the Cape and about half the south shore with Electric and Gas. By population, NatGrid probably only has about half the state.

NatGrid tends to raise rates more than NStar, and they seem to get hit worse with outages in storms. Im glad to be in NStar territory...

Dont know what's more scary?

Some of the energy bill's, Or the fact some people know how much they use to the nearest .00%

I suppose if u went onto my providers websites, logged in to my account, I could get those figures for the annum.

My rate on St. Croix is .57 cents per KWH. luckily we only need lights, no heating or cooling..

Rossco said:

I suppose if u went onto my providers websites, logged in to my account, I could get those figures for the annum.

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That's where I get them. I'm not out there standing by the meter with pencil and paper.

ironpony said:

My rate on St. Croix is .57 cents per KWH. luckily we only need lights, no heating or cooling..

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At that rate, I'd be paying over $11,000 per year for electric!

CaptSpiff said:

The article referenced National Grid (electric utility serving most of Mass excepting Boston) forecasting winter electric rates to increase by 37%.

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jharkin said:

NStar services much of greater Boston west to Worcester, all of the Cape and about half the south shore with Electric and Gas. By population, NatGrid probably only has about half the state.

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Yup, agreed.
http://www.nstar.com/about_nstar/service_territory.asp
https://www.nationalgridus.com/non_html/shared_about_svcmap_meco.pdf

jharkin said:

NStar services much of greater Boston west to Worcester, all of the Cape and about half the south shore with Electric and Gas. By population, NatGrid probably only has about half the state.

NatGrid tends to raise rates more than NStar, and they seem to get hit worse with outages in storms. Im glad to be in NStar territory...

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just a heads up, your increase coming out in jan., nasty grid nov. nasty grid current electric cost $.08277, nstar $.09379. historically one will mirror the other.

Aah bills. Family of 4, 2250 sq ft 1960 split-level house in Philly 'burbs, 2 small cars. Recreational wood burning 0.2 cords/yr.

In 2007, before energy upgrades:
Annual home usage was 8000 kWh elec, and 1350 gal heating oil.
Cars usage: 15000 mi at 25 mpg = 600 gal gas (12 gal/wk).
Operating Cost (at current prices): 8000*0.124 = $992, 1350*$3.75 = $5072 + $200 service, 600*3.50 = $2100
Total for home and vehicle energy, using 2006 equipment: $8364/yr, or $700/mo
Nearly all fossil energy, ~28 tons of CO2 emitted/yr. About -$2000/yr to US trade balance.

Actually had home energy upgrades, converted house to all electric, switched supply to $0.124/kWh 100% wind power, leased 1 EV.
In 2014, annual usage is:
Annual house usage is 15500 kWh elec, not including EV. Period.
Cars usage: EV goes 10,000 mi/year @ 3.6kWh/mi(total) = 2850 kWh elec, Mazda5 goes 3000 mi @ 22 mpg, 136 gals gas.
Operating cost (at current prices): 18150*0.124 = $2250, 136*$3.50 = $476
Total for home and vehicle energy, using 2014 equipment: $2726/yr, or $227/mo
Nearly all wind power, ~1.6 tons of CO2/yr. About -$150/yr to US trade balance.

Annual energy 'savings': $5638/yr, and +$1850/yr improvement to US balance of trade.
Clearly fixing the climate is technically impossible, will cost a bundle and will destroy the US economy.

Disclosure:
New HVAC/DHW equipment and energy retrofit cost ~$15k upfront (relative to planned conventional upgrades). Maybe $2k total in govt and utility rebates. Call it 3 years simple payback.
Assuming wind turbines are <10 years old, @2.2 cents/kWh, fed subsidy to turbine owners: up to $400/year for my power.
New EV lease cost $1200/yr more net than old gaswagon beater, including $7500 fed rebate to Nissan/dealer.
Operating cost of ASHP should include a $5-8k replacement cost on a 10-15 yr lifetime, call it $500/year.

Doug MacIVER said:

this will make the solar folks happy! http://www.wcvb.com/money/national-grid-warns-of-much-higher-electric-costs-this-winter/28224678?utm_source=hootsuite&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=wcvb+channel+5+boston. read earlier today , the rate payers on Nantucket will increase 100%. total kw cost out there $.24+. there will be as many solar ads as political ads. claim is not enough pipeline capacity for nat gas and closing plants. all this with gas as cheap as it has been in years. sounds like a really good plan from where I sit.

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Reading the comments on that article took me back to growing up in MA. Crazy arguing with Crazy, and no-one actually knows what's going on!

Sounds to me like good old-fashioned poor management at the utilities!

Frankly, makes me glad for deregulation here in PA. I can contract my power supply with any of a couple dozen 'generators', for 2-3 years at a go, for 8-9 cents/kWh. My (private) distributor charges me an amount for distribution that varies quarterly, currently about 4 cents/kWh, +$6/mo. The distributor rates are still publicly regulated.

yo-yo principle. what goes down can and will come up. lowest nat gas price in 2012($2.00), electric price ntgrid $.0672. 2014 gas around $4.00 new electric projected $.115 not much of a mystery with coal gone and nuclear dwindling. i've always found Mass. alternative electric sources to be only slightly lower with far fewer choices than Pa. then there is my favorite pick upon cape wind adding to the load. at least the delivery load on the bill remains fairly constant. maybe this chart explains it better