INFO/OPINIONS requested What stove/system?

PapaDeTrois said:

Hello all..
So here I am in my newly purchased 3,000 sf ranch with a full basement on top of that(or under, as the case may be).. heated by my ugly 1000 gallon LP tank outside. I have 10+ acres of oak, hickory and maple plus assorted "stuff" in the back. It kills me to be at the mercy of the propane co. and I want to heat by wood. The house is fitted with 2 LP forced air systems-zoned for the bedroom "wing" and the living "wing".

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Do you have a floor plan you can post?
Where do you live?
What's your heating season like - how cold, how long, peak lows, etc.
What is the house construction? Age? How "tight" is it? Amounts of insulation?
What kinds of temperatures do you want to keep? Do you mind if some parts of the house are cooler than others?
Do you have any existing fireplaces or wood stoves?

1. What are my options?

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Easiest would be one or more wood stoves, though it sounds like you may have a layout that will be a challenge to get heat distributed to evenly

2. I like the idea of something that would work during power outages(or worse).

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Basically any stove or insert will give some heat during a power failure, probably a free standing stove will do best in this regard.

3. What am I looking at for prices (given almost 6000 sf of living space)?

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It varies a great deal - how fancy a stove do you want? large box stoves range from around a grand for a value priced Englander steel plate stove, to almost 3K for a soapstone stove. You will also need to budget for a chimney if you don't have one already, probably another 1-2K, plus installation if you don't plan to DIY it (which isn't that difficult if you are good with tools)

4. What other questions do I need to be asking?

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This will do for now, other questions will come up as we go along.

Also, I have seen some ads for wood heat "boilers". Are all wood heaters based on a water heat exchange system?

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Most boilers are, and that might also be an option given your house size (but it wouldn't be cheap) - what can be done is to put the boiler in one location, and run a water - air heat exchanger in the plenum of each of your HVAC setups. There are also a few supplemental wood furnaces that are designed to fit into your existing HVAC setup, but that might be difficult to work out since you say that you have two seperate units.

Be wary of the infamous "Outdoor Wood Boiler" - they are expensive and tend to be poor performing, highly polluting wood hogs - many jurisdictions are putting heavy restrictions on them because they cause so many problems.

Look forward to hearing all the info and seeing all the personal preferences pop up.....


Oooo! I am also in the market for a log splitter and have the opportunity to buy a used cub cadet gas powered 30ish ton splitter about 4 years old. Personal use about 5 cords a year. Owned by a cub cadet mechanic... 600-700 dollars a good price?

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Reasonable price - as a reference Tratctor Supply / Harbor Freight / Northern all sell ~20 ton units for around a grand, so do HD and Lowes... 30 ton is arguably better, but mostly overkill as a 20 will handle pretty much anything you can throw at it. (personal preference note - I would insist on a unit that can be operated in both horizontal and vertical mode, IMHO Vertical is better for many situations)

Very excited to get started.

PapaDeTrois

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Note that you are VERY late to get started this season - unless you already have a good supply of wood cut and split, it takes about a year for wood to season, so you'd need to buy wood for this season. I'd say plan on heating with your current setup for this winter, while you do research and decide what you want, then install in the spring and start laying in your wood supply for next year.

Gooserider

[quote author="Gooserider" date="1192622887Note that you are VERY late to get started this season - unless you already have a good supply of wood cut and split, it takes about a year for wood to season, so you'd need to buy wood for this season. I'd say plan on heating with your current setup for this winter, while you do research and decide what you want, then install in the spring and start laying in your wood supply for next year.

Gooserider[/quote]
I wouldn't give up on heating with wood this year if that's the direction you decide to go. Yes, you are coming to the party a bit late in the season, but you're only a week or two behind when I started the process last year. I wound up with a great set up and burned all winter.

I did have a small "starter" supply of seasoned wood that I had on hand for my fireplace, but did have to add to it. This year will be a bit of a challenge for wood, but it can be done.

BTW: welcome to hearth.com

My parents have a fireplace insert that provides most of the heat for their ranch style house. The bedrooms are a LONG way from the stove and that area will get cool if the oil furnace doesn't kick on once in a while. Likewise, the living room that the stove is in is a long way from the furnace so it would be chilly without it. If I had a large masonry fireplace in my home I would use an insert. Depending on the size of the opening you may also be able to place a free standing stove in the opening. You will need additional parts in the form of chimney liners and block off plates if you install an insert, but it will be much more efficient than burning wood in an open fireplace.

I'm replacing my current freestanding woodstove with a new one by Pacific Energy. Quadrafire, Lopi and Avalon were the other manufacturers in the running. There are MANY more excellent products out there too but that should give you a starting point.

Good luck.

PapaDeTrois said:

WOW... Gooserider, thank you so much for the response. Very organized BTW. I do have house plans but they are full sized architect's plans and I don't really have any way of scanning them. I will see if pictures work.

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We don't need anything that detailed, more just a rough sketch to show the layout. Think more or less like the floor plans you see in magazines like "This Old Shack" - Most of what people post here are done in their favorite computer drawing program to give an idea of what we are thinking.

The house has 2 fireplaces.. one on the first floor and one directly below it in the basement. They are located fairly centrally in the house, with the chimney running up the center of the house. The layout is very open, living dining kitchen all in one large space with slightly peaked ceiling. The bedrooms are down a hallway in the other "wing". The basement is all open except for one storage room and two small rooms at the other end.

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Sounds fairly reasonable to get the heat distributed in the LR/Kitchen area, might be a bit of a challenge to get it down to the bedrooms, but a lot of folks like to keep the bedrooms a bit cooler, so that might not be a big challenge. The existing fireplaces with central locations may be very helpful, centrally located chimneys are good, and it solves some of the logistics of installation.

Construction is frame with full brick facing all round. Built in 1987. Very well constructed. Don't know about specific insulation but the AC worked well and no real hot spots in the house this summer. Also, every room/space has ceiling fans except the basement common space. Windows are double paned Anderson and the doors are Anderson as well. They are original to the house, so circa 1987.

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Sounds pretty good. A bit of draft stopping never hurts, but it sounds like you are in reasonably good shape.

I am in central Illinois. Winter hits around november, sometimes october and goes easily through april. Lows can easily dip into the negatives, though mostly teens to twenties. However, minus 20F is not unheard of.

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OK, doesn't sound terribly different from where we are in New England - you might want to add your location to your profile just to keep us reminded... How "hard core" do you want to be about this - make a sizeable dent in the bill, but still run the furnace occasionally, or go full bore wood and never have it kick in? - There are arguments for each approach, and it may impact the size of stove(s) you choose, and will certainly impact your wood consumption.

In regards to existing wood supply, I have about 4 cords well seasoned (1.5-2 year) hardwood. Oak, hickory, maple. I also have 4-5 trees that are dead but standing that I plan to fell soon, so that should add up pretty quickly.

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That doesn't sound bad - I've been going through about 5 full cords (not "face cords"!) with my smoke dragon in about 2K square feet, hopefully the new Encore will improve that... If you drop the standing deads now and get them split, stacked, and top covered they may be ready in time for the late winter / early spring burn. It seems like S/D trees are quite variable - some folks find them almost dry when dropped, other folks find them almost as wet as live trees....

I have the existing firepalces, so can use those for what they are worth this winter. They have those in wall circulating fan systems built in. I do think I should "get all my ducks in a row" this season before jumping in with both feet.

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Hmmm.... Sounds like they are pre-fab "Zero Clearance" fireplaces as opposed to masonry units? If so, can you get any information off them as to makes and models? There are currently two variations of ZC type fireplaces out there, some that are mostly decorative "wood wasters" that send most of their heat up the chimney, possibly with some effort to reclaim a bit of it. They are now also making some models with modern high efficiency designs that rival any woodstove. However they are more modern, so I wouldn't expect a great deal from your current units. The bad news is that having a ZC unit as opposed to a masonry fireplace limits your options somewhat as there are rules about what you can do to a ZC box. However it may give the option of replacing those boxes with more modern units.

Would multiple smaller freestanding stoves work better, or one larger? I assume running several stoves at once uses more wood than just one....

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Multiple stoves will almost certainly mean more wood consumed, and definitely more work to keep them all fed. However it is important to keep in mind that a wood stove is a "space heater" not a furnace - so you will need to figure out how best to distribute the heat. This is obviously going to be easier with multiple stoves since you'd have multiple sources to distribute from.

How much do you use your basement? How critical is it to keep the basement warm? Generally putting stoves in the basement doesn't work as well as having them upstairs, but it is hard to make heat go down...

Again, thank you so much for the input. As I get more knowledgeable, I won't have to ask so many questions!

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Don't worry, we all had to start someplace...

Also, are there some brands that are just known for quality? Or others to stay away from?

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Not really... Almost any of the frequently mentioned, currently produced, brands and models you see here are good (except for Vogelzang) and each has it's own features and advantages / disadvantages. It's kind of a "Ford / Chevy" thing.

Thanks again![/quote]

You're welcome...

Gooserider

PapaDeTrois said:

Gooserider and enord... thanks for the info....

In terms of how "hard core" I want to be... I would LOVE to never turn the propane on.... one b/c of money and second I just like the idea of being self-sufficient. And a bit of insurance should the world come to an end doesn't hurt! ;-)

the opening of the fireplaces are 24 inches high by 38 inches wide. they go back about 10 inches before angling inwards a bit to the back. The total depth is about 28 inches.

Is inserting a wood stove versus an insert a bad idea or cheesy? Are there benefits to doing it that way? I prefer the classic look to the stoves versus the "modern" slick look of the inserts I have seen.

The cool thing about all this is that my wife is fully on board about the whole thing.

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OK, if you are going "hard core" then you probably want to look at getting the largest stove or stoves you can, both because of the size of your space, and to give you the reserve capacity for when the temps do a nose dive... A soapstone stove like the Hearthstone Mansfield, or possibly even their soon to be released Equinox might be ideal for you, assuming you can make them work with your fireplace and you like the looks. A soapstone stove offers the advantage of slightly more even heating due to the thermal mass inertia of the soapstone, but needs to be run 24/7 for best performance. Downside is that these are among the more expensive stoves. Otherwise look for the larger capacity (3 cu. ft +) firebox units. Of course if you do multiple stoves, they don't all have to be the same - You could do a fancy soapstone upstairs, and a "value priced" Englander NC-30 downstairs for instance... (Though it's best to pick stoves that have similar wood size specs, as that makes it easier to cut for...)

As to the heating efficiency, it's a tradeoff, free standing stoves may be more efficient than inserts in some cases, but you have an inside chimney so the efficiency difference will be less than with an outside chimney. Otherwise, the free standing stoves tend to be better at producing radiant heat, the inserts better at making convective heat.

In terms of aesthetics, we "don't go there" as that is a decision that each person has to make on their own, and tastes vary - what looks great to me may look like chit to you, so aside from comments about the general style of a stove or suggesting what might go well in a particular setup, we don't try to be interior decorators :lol: Our usual suggestion is to figure out what performance requirements you have, decide on the 3-5 stoves you feel best meet those needs, and pick the one YOU (or She Who Must Be Obeyed :coolsmile: ) like best - stoves are furniture as well as heaters, pick one you like to look at...

In terms of Enord's comments about stove pipes - back in the "bad old days" before modern stoves, a lot of heat went up the chimney, and by having an exposed stovepipe, a fair amount could be recovered (though if over done, this could cause more rapid creosote buildup) In a modern stove, far less heat is sent up the chimney, mostly just enough to keep the draft working well, so you don't get as much benefit from an exposed pipe.

In general when mounting a stove in an existing fireplace, there are three options -
1. Put the stove all or partially in the fireplace, and vent up through the damper, sort of like an insert
2. Put the stove in front of the fireplace, vent out the back, through the firebox and up.
3. Put the stove in front of the fireplace, vent up, make a right angle and vent into a new hole in the chimney drilled above the old firebox and damper. This is the approach Enord was suggesting.

If your stove is a prefab, which I suspect is the case, you may not be able to do option 3. Do you know if your firebox is masonry or metal (possibly with fire bricks or other refractory material covering it)? What kind of chimney do you have? Masonry, (if so, is it clay tile lined?) or metal? What size are the flues? How high is the flue on each fireplace?

Gooserider


Gooserider

I say no with the stove, sounds like a situation for an insert. One big one on each floor. An insert heats different than a stove, and your application sounds like an insert would be better suited to me plus you have 2 fireplaces. If you have a large area to heat and want the heat to spread around an insert is the wiser choice. Inserts have much larger blowers than stoves, and force huge amounts of air through channels that wrap around the unit, forcing it to be super heated before escaping. In short they make a ton of hot air, if you've seen a pellet stove in action (or ask someone who has one how they heat), an insert heats similarly. A stove doesn't have those channels that wrap around it nor the big blowers. The extra amounts of hot air from an insert will spread and heat your floor and its extremeties. My insert has a 220 CFM blower and forces all the air in my house through it heating it to 175F every 50 minutes then repeats. A stove can't do that (they don't have the channels that wrap around). I'm not saying inserts are all rosy, depends on your goals. Because an insert forces so much air through it, of the type that spreads around they don't make particularly good room heaters (unless you can shut the room off). So if you come home to a cold house with an insert, lighting a fire in it it's going to start heating the floor and will take some time to bring the floor up to temp. The good news, once your floor is up to temp an insert is great at maintaining temperature and unlikely to overheat the area around it as its hot air doesn't stick around the room with the insert. Coming home to a cold house a stove will heat the room it's in quickly which is nice and the heat will spill over to the floor & house but it will take longer trying to get the rest of your house up to temp and won't heat the extremeties as well. You're also more likely to run into a situation with a stove once the house is up to temp it will overheat the area around itself trying to keep the extremeties warm. Depends on what your goals are, a stove is a better room heater and insert a better floor/extremety heater. As for power failure, how often do you lose power for more than 8 hours? It's happened here once in 20 years, had I purchased a stove for its better heating without power I'd have replaced the stove without ever using its better ability to heat without power.

No one has asked if the basement is finished, and whether or not the ceiling in the basement is insulated. If it is unfinished, and there is plenty of insulation, a second stove is nice but unnecessary. If it is finished space, this is a moot point, but I think the question needs to be asked.

Rhonemas said:

I say no with the stove, sounds like a situation for an insert.

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I don't know much about inserts, but this is the first time I read that an insert can put out more heat than a freestanding stove. Are you sure about that? Doesn't make much sense to me. The reason it has all of the channels and fans is to overcome the fact that its burried inside of a fireplace - it HAS to have all those channels and fans to prevent all the heat from going up the chimney.

That said, I don't think an insert would be a bad choice. If you have the room in FRONT of your existing fireplaces, you could also put a freestanding woodstove there (assuming you have the clearances) - lots of people do this (I helped install two of these last year) - all you need is a liner for your chimney.

As for using the existing fireplaces as is - I think that's a bad idea - don't waste your wood. Get the stove or insert, and use your supply of wood efficiently. Maybe just try one stove or insert this year to see how it works out for you, and add another later if you want to.

Hi papa,

I believe Rhonemas is correct. If you can afford it, this is the path I would take:
1) call around and find out who the best stove dealers in your area are.
2) invite them all, have them give you quote for installing an insert and liner on the first floor. That will be enough of a change and test for this year.
3) go with the guy you like best, has the best price and can give you the largest insert that fits your fireplace. Most inserts nowadays are very good but what counts in your case is firebox size.
3) have them install it, cut more wood this fall in the back for winter 08/09 and split and stack. The longer it dries, the better.
4) get used to operating one insert this winter. Involve your spouse and 3 kids. It is a learning curve but well worth it.
5) if things work out, do an identical install next year in the basement. And cut more wood, because with 2 insert 24/7 burning, you will likely use 10 full cords a year. That is a row of wood 16 inch splits 4 ft high and 240 ft long. Every year!

Good Luck

Carpniels (father of 3 sons)

Not saying it puts out more heat, it puts out more convection heat. A wood stove puts out Radiant & Convection heat, an insert is covered in a shroud which converts the radiant energy into additional amounts of convection. The amount of radiant energy reduced in an insert is directly proportional to the gain in convection so an insert puts out convection + convection heat = significantly more convection heat than a stove. What can a unit that puts out more "hot air" do? The extra amounts of hot air spreads to the extremeties of a house. It moves to other floors, around corners, down hallways, it's the only type that spreads around and only type that can be transferred through ducts. So if you want to move the heat or spread to other areas and rooms of your house, down hallways, the unit with the most convection heat will be best suited = insert.

Unlike an insert a stove produces less convection but more radiant energy. Since radiant energy is a form of light, light can't go to the extremeties of your house, can't go around corners, can't go to other floors, can't transfer through ducts. What it does do however, is on striking an object, converts into a convection, conduction, and radiant energy making it useful around the stove and makes the stove a superior room heater, an insert is no match. A stove puts out more total btu's, but puts out less of the form that travels to other parts of the house and if your goal is to heat other rooms or extremeties an insert is better suited.

As I mentioned, that's if it suits I'm not saying there's winners or losers. If your wife or elderly likes it hot and you don't you're better with a stove as it heats the room & all objects in said room hotter making them more happy, and lets you escape to the cooler parts of the house. However, if you're not one that likes hot rooms or wants the heat to be in other parts of the house not around the stove you're better with an insert, or what's called a "convection wood stove". But the reason I didn't mention the convection wood stove is unfortunately they don't make a big one that I'm aware totally encased in a shroud. The ones manufactures advertise as "convection" usually only have just 1 side (back), some I've seen will have the back and sides which I think an improvement but a true one has the bottom, sides, back, and top which includes almost all inserts and the only true convection wood stove I'm aware the small Lopi Answer which is too small for the area mentioned.

Is your existing chimney fireplace a masonry setup? I'm a bit puzzled about a metal liner in there can you provide more details measurements pictures of you hearth. the more info you provide the more accurate the experts here can provide.

As far as large capacity stoves the largest fire box stove is a 4,25 cu ft Blaze king the largest insert again over 4 cu ft firebox is a buck stove. One more cu ft capacity does make a huge difference . Each of these stoves are very efficient and clean burning A smaller stove on the far end again we need more details sounds like there is a lot of glass area that needs to be addressed to size a stove properly. I think realistic goal have to be set. Every BTU produced by wood means one less to fossil fuel Even if it can't carry the entire load it is still saving fossil fuel usage Perhaps one can Zone your existing heating system where it is split and used only in areas where the stove's heat can't get there.

I think you need to approach this two ways, one is to work preserving all heat produced and reduce heat being lost. That might mean zoning you duct system and addressing Duct insulation and reducing leak transmission losses. It might also require design improvements. No mention as to how your home is insulated or whether i plugging up draft leakage can improve your situation..

The second approach you are asking here is supplemental wood heat alternative. We need more info to help you. Have you ever had an infirred scan of you home? to detect leakage?

Even have an energy audit? Ever have you HVAC system leak tested? You have a lot of space to heat might as well start getting it right or improving what you have

Hmmm.... Sounds like you have more than just a standard fireplace - possibly either a pre-fab "Zero Clearance" unit with a brick surround for cosmetic reasons, or possibly a heatilator type "heat form" firebox in a masonry fireplace. It is important to figure out just what you have as there are important code restrictions that might impact your options for inserts, how things are vented, and so on.

1. Look around the insides of those metal linings and see if there are any data plates mounted anyplace in the firebox that would give more detail about what they are...

2. Consider bringing in a chimney sweep to have the chimneys cleaned (a good idea regardless if you don't know what their status is) and an evaluation of what you have. Specifically what kind of chimney is it? Tile lined Masonry? Metal? Air cooled? Size of the chimney tiles or metal liner?

Gooserider

Dear papa de trois,

I am new to the forum,but I do have 2 years experience heating my home with a
in basement wood stove. It has a big firebox & since it was a homemade copy of a 1960
style stove , I dont have tech specs on it, but I can say this:

It brings my 30 x 30x8 basement up to 102deg.f. in about 75 min. if I put a 3/4 load of 1/4ed or smaller, 1/8th, split wood (about 1 small wheelbarrow full) so I have learned to control the heat by loading the stove less , say 1/3 ,1/2 or 2/3 load of wood and burning with my primary air 1/3 to 1/2 open to keep a hot fire, 500-600 deg stack temp, so as to burn the smoke and
not smoke up the neighborhood.

anyways, point is, basement temp with smaller load,90-95 deg. first floor, 71 to 76 deg and second floor, 63 to 66 deg and I can do this even when outside temp is 10 below although in ct usually 18 Deg dead of winter.

Now ,this is just an old fashioned smoker stove, not high efficiency.

I see at home depot, regular every day price, $999.99,I think , sorry I didnt write it down, englander, 63% efficency, hot air wood fired add on basement
furnace, 85,000 btu, with 850 cu /ft min fan and thermo switch included. Has 10 x 10 inch glass
in door too, to watch pretty flames thru. Price direct from factory,1239.oo include ship 2 your door.www.summerheat.com or www.englander.com or www.timberline.com--they make all 3 brand stoves at same factory in pa.

Option #1. (not necessarly the best choice) you know your lay out, I dont.

It has two 8 inch
hot air ducts and you could get flexable 8 in round duct to run to your hard to heat rooms.
Unit uses 6 in single or double wall stove pipe depending on your clearances to flamable surfaces. Single wall about $6.00 to $8.oo for 3 ft section. Double wall, $45.00-65.oo for
3 ft section. Use single wall if you have the required clearances.

Option #2.

Dont use any ducting for the hot air, just dump it into the basement and it will spread all over and warm the basement and go up the basement stairwell into the Kitchen ??? or whatever
room your basement stair well leads to.

Hidden advantage to option #2---- just cut 4 inch x 12 inch holes in the floors of the rooms,
one for fan forced for hot air from the basement ceiling and the other ,in the same upstairs room , to return the cold air off the floor by gravity into the basement 2 be reheated.

Just by cutting hot air register slots in your floors with a sawzall or scroll saw , you can have
fan forced hot air into every room that shares a floor with the basement cieling.

Register covers cost $12, painted sheet metal, to$ 45 cast metal depending on how fancy looking , or more, say 4 brass cover. Hot air register fans cost 20.oo to 120.oo, depending on who you order it from and cu. ft. min air delevery. i suggest getting one of the cheapest ones
, install it and see how well it does. If it do ok, buy more for the rest of the registers, if it do bad, put it in the smallest room or room you dont need a lot of heat in and buy more expensive
more cu ft /min fans.

So , no duct work, although you keep the option open if needed. easy & inexpensive 20.00 & 60.oo for registers per room, furnace cost under 900.oo not 2400.oo or 2800.oo & ship like some of the free standing stoves I know you been looking at.

I know because I been looking & pricing too
I find free standing stove , 90,000 btu model 2000,Drolet $ 999.00 www.northerntool.com
This non-cat high efficencyuse preheated primary and preheated secondary air with secondary combustion chamber to burn up smoke before it can get out chimney. I see this stove elseware for 1800.oo & ship

Opinion #3
Who wants to spend all day cutting wood and splitting wood and drying wood---- get a pellet stove or pellet fired hot air or hot water basement furnace.

Now I sooo sure theirs about 391 wood stovers out there ready to jump down my throat for
saying that but remember, I solved my problem by buying both a pellet stove and a wood stove. Wood stove cheapest to run, can't beat free wood, but I buy 1 ton 50 - 40 lb bags $202.oo pre-season special in july for pellet stove for all those nites I just too tired to spend 1 hour babbysitting a wood stove fire and going outside 6 times to check chimeny smoke, so neighbors never know I burn wood stove.

Its so nice to push on button and then take nap in from of pellet stove. Self igniting, self feeding, thermostatic off/on, just like oil burner only 20% of opperation cost of oil burner.

So, this are suggestions, you like to cut & split, get wood stove. You like to push button & take nap, get pellet stove. You like 2 do both, buy both.

I really dont know your preferences,but I though I give you benifit of my ideas.
I'm no expert, but I tell you what works 4 me.

I realize my system needs up grades too, but when I buy big firebox smoker stove , I have no one to tell me anything and actually when I run small hot fire, it no smoke. Also, I did not
have the money I saved from stop buying oil, like I do now, to enable me to buy new wood stove or furnace. I am still researching equipment & I wait for end of season clearance, they
sometimes, knock 300.oo off stove price.