The value proposition? Englander vs. more expensive (Quadrafire / Harman)

refiners_fire said:

My situation is similar. I need something simple that my wife can use...or it will never be used (i.e. Maintained) while I'm away on business. The wife is already plenty busy...plus she might not be happy with me if i turned her into Cinderella

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Then I would consider a Quad Sante Fe, if I were you. They haven't even been mentioned here but for 1/2 of the 'coveted' Hormoan, you get a stove that is very reliable, easy to clean about once a week or two, and just keeps working with minimal fuss. All these people who have been suckered into plunking down big bucks for their Hormoan now have to defend the decision by getting others to join the clan. (this last statement was meant to raise the hackles, folks, so take a deep breath).

Good example of what happens when a Harman does not work. You call your dealer and don't hear a thing. So you go on hearth.com and ask questions.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/need-help-with-my-harman-p61a.132202/

I've burned corn-pellets for 10 years. I talked to owners of different brands and models before deciding to go with a Harman PC-45. Reason being it is basically a set and forget type stove that will burn either corn or wood pellets. The only draw back I learned was the corn had to be 12% for a decent burn and the stirrers would build up with slag very fast. The dealer didn't know the cause for that and the company rep said it was the corn we raised. I paid extra because I wanted a stove I didn't have to babysit. I found that if I blended pellets with corn this buildup of slag took longer to develop. My thought was if I sold it I should get a better price then if I had gone with a Box store stove. It was advertised as a 45btu stove and after the first year I could see it was to small.
I had heard stories about the Quad AE which was supposed to be a 60,000 btu stove and it could also burn corn so I ordered one which arrived Nov 24th. It was installed when I was gone and it wouldn't start when I got home. This was the beginning of one of the most frustrating experiences of my life. The good part was Harman couldn't make enough stoves and bumped their prices that fall so I was able to sell it for what it cost me a year earlier. The bad part was nobody knew how the AEs worked and there was lots of problems. The fact that the dealer never tested the stove before he left was a pretty good indication as to his customer service . Once your check cleared it was good luck and don't call me if it doesn't work as it is to complicated for me. By spring I had burned half a winters supply of fuel oil because the stove was down for repairs. I was told be a service rep that if I burned pellets it would work better. Being the stove was sold to burn corn I felt that I was getting the short end of the stick with this stove so basically installed everything brand new complete with updates to the board, new igniter, new wall control,new baffle board and new exh fan. I then sold it to a fellow who was burning pellets. Amazingly he used it for three years with no problems
What did I learn from all this? Never buy a brand new model as usually there will be changes to be made. Never buy anything I can't fix myself as way to many dealers disappear after the check clears. The warranty disappears as soon as the dealer quits. If your Harman dealer quits or dies Harman will ignore you.
I always read about the Bixby being a Cadillac of the stoves but very high priced. When I seen one of e-bay for half price I decided to gamble and bought one. Of course the first thing was no warranty or dealer support. After my experiences with both above premium brands I decided I have nothing to loose as for that price I could buy a extra for parts. I have found out you could call the company and get parts direct. They also gave you software updates so we as consumers got a break as we bypassed the dealer. It takes a little ability to hold a wrench but every part you need comes with a very good diagram and directions to remove and replace.
It turns out the president of this company will be looking at many years in prison for bilking people out of their money. But that has nothing to do with the quality of the stove. Basically I brought this up because everyone has their list of important items they want in a stove. I wanted one that I can start and not have to babysit it. This one holds 110 lbs of corn , I can add fuel while it is running and dump the ash while it is running. Basically push the start button, set thermo on 70 and it will run for 3 weeks nonstop as long as you add corn every couple days and dump the clinker box once a week or so. Yeah no warranty but I don't need one.

refiners_fire said:

Few questions for you here:
What was the reason you chose the P61 first?
You mention the P61 will eat almost anything, but does this imply that the Englander won't eat anything?
You mention the "Excellent service" with the Englander but you don't mention your service with Harman. Can you please explain your experience with the service on your Harman?

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Choosing stove
Chose the Harman after 2 months of shopping and talking to both Harman and Englander owners.
Liked the ash pan and 70 lb hopper of the Harman's vs Englander lack of ash pan which would require more frequent cleaning.
We can go around 4 weeks before ash pan needs to be emptied.
We are heating about 1550 sq ft (2 floors) I wanted the XXV but my Wife did not. So...looked at
the model below the XXV and was concerned that it might run full bore. Went with the P61.

Eats almost anything
Our first year-2008- we burned Maine Wood Pellets (Their first year) Very Very dirty pellets. Many stove owners
were also burning MWP and were having many problems including stoves shutting down due to ash clunkers.
I would guess the Englander would have a few problems with high ash pellets.
All we had to due with the Harman was give the burn pot a quick clean while running. 3-4 times/day
MWP are much improved!!

Service
With Harman you can not call them for assistance. Have to call dealer. Our dealer has been excellent.
Englander has a Tech. Support service which has very high marks.

Was able to get the Englander in a trade. Has worked well keeping the basement warm.

Hope this helps!

tjnamtiw said:

Amen to that! It pretty well sums up a lame attempt at glorifying Harman's. Yes, they are apparently well made stoves but they aren't the elixir of all things pellet oriented. You'll see plenty of questions throughout the winter about them too. The real question that should be asked of ANYONE buying a pellet stove is 'are you ready to accept the fact that you must ROUTINELY service/clean/troubleshoot the appliance when IT needs it and not when YOU feel like it?' and 'do you realize that this is a SPACE HEATER?'.

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I've burned wood for the last 15 years with a clay lined chimney. I burned wet wood, soft wood, hard wood, skids, lumber scraps, and never had a chimney fire! You know why? Because I care if my house burns down and kills my family, so I get up on the roof a couple times a season and make sure my chimney is clean! And as for having to clean out some ash a couple times a week with a shop vac, I'm used to filling a 5 gal pail every other day out of the wood stove! The thing I like the most about my Englander is that I paid $800 for it and its very hands on. I'm the type of guy that changes my own oil and fixes my buddy's car. Some people have no problem calling a dealer to come to their house and change an auger motor or a control board, I'm not one of those people.

SKOAL MAN said:

I've burned wood for the last 15 years with a clay lined chimney. I burned wet wood, soft wood, hard wood, skids, lumber scraps, and never had a chimney fire! You know why? Because I care if my house burns down and kills my family, so I get up on the roof a couple times a season and make sure my chimney is clean! And as for having to clean out some ash a couple times a week with a shop vac, I'm used to filling a 5 gal pail every other day out of the wood stove! The thing I like the most about my Englander is that I paid $800 for it and its very hands on. I'm the type of guy that changes my own oil and fixes my buddy's car. Some people have no problem calling a dealer to come to their house and change an auger motor or a control board, I'm not one of those people.

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You're exactly the kind of guy that is meant for a pellet stove. How many times have we seen people come here for advice that should NEVER have been sold a stove?

Do your reseach and get the stove that fits you best.for me my harman p35i is a slice of heaven

There was some thread on here from 2-3 years ago about someone letting there Englander go about half the heating season without doing anything except dumping pellets in it. It was a pretty dirty beast but it was still burning happy. If I remember the owner finally caved because the glass had become so dirty he wanted to see the flame. I cant seem to find the thread anymore though.

tjnamtiw said:

Then I would consider a Quad Sante Fe, if I were you. They haven't even been mentioned here but for 1/2 of the 'coveted' Hormoan, you get a stove that is very reliable, easy to clean about once a week or two, and just keeps working with minimal fuss. All these people who have been suckered into plunking down big bucks for their Hormoan now have to defend the decision by getting others to join the clan. (this last statement was meant to raise the hackles, folks, so take a deep breath).

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(post #3 )
My Quad has had just a new thermocouple, a convection blower, (and maybe an ignitor) in 12 years. For cleaning, I use a paintbrush to brush ash into the ashpan... no vacuum, no "scraping the burnpot" is needed.

moey said:

There was some thread on here from 2-3 years ago about someone letting there Englander go about half the heating season without doing anything except dumping pellets in it. It was a pretty dirty beast but it was still burning happy. If I remember the owner finally caved because the glass had become so dirty he wanted to see the flame. I cant seem to find the thread anymore though.

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I think I remember that. DexterDay with his CB1200 and another member (maybe imacman???) had an informal competition for most bags without opening the stove. Forum search doesn't seem to allow searching for threads by former members.

SwineFlue said:

I think I remember that. DexterDay with his CB1200 and another member (maybe imacman???) had an informal competition for most bags without opening the stove. Forum search doesn't seem to allow searching for threads by former members.

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That sucks if we can't search former members' contributions! Those guys contributed a lot!

I am very happy with my Englander 25PAH. Great price, burns anything, puts out the heat, runs perfect with 2-3 minutes of cleaning a day which is the same as any other stove needs imo. All stoves will need to be repaired at some point. Englanders are easy to workon, as few complicated running parts as possible, and the parts department is on top of it!

I must say, my Quad is cleaned only once/week. No scraping anything on a regular basis, except once per month during the routine cleaning in which I remove the baffle, etc. Otherwise, with the auto clean, it's just open hopper lid, dump in pellets - 80 lbs at a time to fully refill.

Here's my take on Englanders... And when I say Englanders it also includes Summers Heat and Timber Ridge as they are all the same. More pointedly, when I refer to Englanders I'm partial to the double auger designs.

Think about it...a stove designed in 1990, sold in box stores by people who know little to nothing about pellet stove to people who are buying primarily on price and convenience and will most likely install it themselves or hire someone who knows just about nothing about the stove cause they have never been trained. If there was a recipe for disaster...here it is, yet I would argue that Englander may have as many stove in service as Harman and definitely more than than most manufacturers...and they work just as well if not better than most.

You have to understand the model though. YOU are not England's Stove Works customer...Home Depot, Lowes and other box stores are their customer. You are the end user. While you may be disconnected from service and a knowledgeable sales staff...yer not paying for it either.

Unfortunately, using this bulk sales model, Englander can't set their own pricing so there are some compromises. Not so much in parts quality cause from a manufacturing standpoint, other makers use the same parts too, but at times Englander will pump out so many stoves some of the build quality can be overlooked and you really need a trained eye to detect the issues at times.

Yes, an Englander can be loud. But so is a Harman Accentra freestanding. Harman will have a higher resale value. There are more people in the industry trained to work on Harmans too but it doesn't mean they will work on your Harman if they didn't sell it to you.

In the end, it's a metal box that burns wood pellets and throws off some heat. Hands down though, I would wager any bet that an old rusty Englander from 1998 will be around kicking out heat longer than most manufacturers will be in business.

Harvey Schneider said:

Burning wood at low temperatures makes creosote. That's just the way wood is.

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Burning wood at low temp makes creosote, burning wood at a good temp with too much or too little fuel makes creosote, burning the right amount of wood at the right temp with too much or too little air makes creosote. Actually all of these instances create smoke, which if it condenses, causes creosote. All of which are rare in pellet stoves but not terribly uncommon.

My last word on this...

The best value is a used stove. I regularly find Lopi Yankees for under 1k. The Lopi Pioneer may be the best built small stove of all time. It's wicked simple to operate, very quiet, easy to maintain, low cost parts...also goes by the name Avalon Newport. Yeah, Harman will burn forever without asking much from you but they aren't without problems either. Gummy stove, warped burn pots, sticky controls, streaky designs on glass, failed igniters year after year, and not to mention....terribly inefficient in emissions if run too long between cleanings. But, if you must hold them to the Mercedes standard...I owned a Mercedes, operatives word "owned", couldn't wait to get rid of it. Though in full disclosure, I have a Harman P61 that never dies and just keeps goin and goin but it's from 1996 or so, the golden age of pellet stoves.

i have serviced my harman twice myself and it seems pretty simple. i actually have a great dealer locally but i dont want to pay him to fix the stove. i have had two small failures in 3 seasons of running it but it may have been my fault. a couple of years ago we had some really bad, dusty conditions, we had removed the old plaster and lath and put up drywall, the stove was running during the process so im guessing that stuff got into the bearings. the failures were the auger feed motor last year and this year the room fan motor. both were easily replaced without involving the dealer. in fact the dealer quoted me $140 for the blower, i went to a local electrical motor repair place and they sold me a brand new motor for $40. it was the motor only, and after all that's all i needed. the stove burns flawlessly and i cannot complain about build quality, it is a very nicely built stove indeed. i cant complain about heat output either. the harman seems to be the closest thing to a wood stove, it even heated my 1500 sq ft 1895 built plank construction home un-assisted during one of the coldest winters i can remember last year. temps down to -10 and even -20 for days on end, with hardly as much as a warm up during the day.

Have to agree with Scott on the best deal is a used stove. The same holds true on cars too. Some of the Whits had good style and ease of use too. I have yet to find a Lopi in our area. One has been on CL now for coming on its second year 175 miles away. Woke up to -1 outside this AM and two stoves in the house perking along and the Hestia in the garage keeping it at 62 on low that has a investment of $550. Hestia had a very fast payback because it displaced propain and now eats cheap corn

smwilliamson said:

My last word on this...

The best value is a used stove. I regularly find Lopi Yankees for under 1k. The Lopi Pioneer may be the best built small stove of all time. It's wicked simple to operate, very quiet, easy to maintain, low cost parts...also goes by the name Avalon Newport. Yeah, Harman will burn forever without asking much from you but they aren't without problems either. Gummy stove, warped burn pots, sticky controls, streaky designs on glass, failed igniters year after year, and not to mention....terribly inefficient in emissions if run too long between cleanings. But, if you must hold them to the Mercedes standard...I owned a Mercedes, operatives word "owned", couldn't wait to get rid of it. Though in full disclosure, I have a Harman P61 that never dies and just keeps goin and goin but it's from 1996 or so, the golden age of pellet stoves.

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that's kind of why i think there are advantages to my stove being a p61 not a p61a, i never have to worry about an ignitor, in fact i can have heat out of it in LESS then 5 minutes using a bernz-o-matic torch. actually my stove is considered a p61-2. i wondered if my p61 is exactly the same as a P61 from 1996 because my stove is allot newer. i bet the designs changed little or not at all. i hope to have this stove 20 years perhaps. i paid $2800 three seasons ago, and i consider that to be allot of money. really i bought the harman because i needed more heat and had a really bad experience with a ussc 5510, just a horridly designed stove that i dont think the manufacturer actually did any long term testing on before they put it on the market. the similar "king" stove is quite a bit different then the stove i had 4 years ago. i bet they changed it so many times just because of how bad it was.

Englander stoves are low cost but are built rugged, I've had two models over the years and there service seems pretty nice as well. BUT they are a daily issue to clean and maintain, even with proper air flow you can get buildup of part burnt pellets and such, they just need a little extra care. This is my first year using a Breckwell where it drops the pellets into the pot and I like that setup much better as the pellets keep whats in the pot stirred up.

smwilliamson said:

Here's my take on Englanders... And when I say Englanders it also includes Summers Heat and Timber Ridge as they are all the same. More pointedly, when I refer to Englanders I'm partial to the double auger designs.

Think about it...a stove designed in 1990, sold in box stores by people who know little to nothing about pellet stove to people who are buying primarily on price and convenience and will most likely install it themselves or hire someone who knows just about nothing about the stove cause they have never been trained. If there was a recipe for disaster...here it is, yet I would argue that Englander may have as many stove in service as Harman and definitely more than than most manufacturers...and they work just as well if not better than most.

You have to understand the model though. YOU are not England's Stove Works customer...Home Depot, Lowes and other box stores are their customer. You are the end user. While you may be disconnected from service and a knowledgeable sales staff...yer not paying for it either.

Unfortunately, using this bulk sales model, Englander can't set their own pricing so there are some compromises. Not so much in parts quality cause from a manufacturing standpoint, other makers use the same parts too, but at times Englander will pump out so many stoves some of the build quality can be overlooked and you really need a trained eye to detect the issues at times.

Yes, an Englander can be loud. But so is a Harman Accentra freestanding. Harman will have a higher resale value. There are more people in the industry trained to work on Harmans too but it doesn't mean they will work on your Harman if they didn't sell it to you.

In the end, it's a metal box that burns wood pellets and throws off some heat. Hands down though, I would wager any bet that an old rusty Englander from 1998 will be around kicking out heat longer than most manufacturers will be in business.

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Very well said and oh so true. I'm not an Englander owner, but knowing what I know now, I'd buy four AMFMENERGY Englanders before I'd buy the ONE Harman that would result in the same bill. Notice I DID say 'knowing what I know now' as far as troubleshooting and repairing.

ad356 said:

that's kind of why i think there are advantages to my stove being a p61 not a p61a, i never have to worry about an ignitor, in fact i can have heat out of it in LESS then 5 minutes using a bernz-o-matic torch. actually my stove is considered a p61-2. i wondered if my p61 is exactly the same as a P61 from 1996 because my stove is allot newer. i bet the designs changed little or not at all. i hope to have this stove 20 years perhaps. i paid $2800 three seasons ago, and i consider that to be allot of money. really i bought the harman because i needed more heat and had a really bad experience with a ussc 5510, just a horridly designed stove that i dont think the manufacturer actually did any long term testing on before they put it on the market. the similar "king" stove is quite a bit different then the stove i had 4 years ago. i bet they changed it so many times just because of how bad it was.

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Don't bet on it...still just as terrible

i know its apples and oranges but i have a country hearth cord wood stove in my barn and it actually puts out some impressive heat, of course that's a cord wood USSC stove and it's probably more difficult to screw up what basically amounts to a steel box that burns chunks of wood, something that has been done for hundreds of years. at any rate the country hearth is a nice air-tight unit and makes a good heater for the garage. if i had bought that USSC country hearth for the house i dont think i would have been dis-appointed. i just dont think i would ever consider another one of their pellet units as long as i live. i will probably have the harman for decades and yeah it was expensive but if i have it that long, then the $$ doesnt seem that bad. if i were to sell the harman it would be if pellet prices get completely out of hand and i switch to coal. i hope prices dont continue to go up. i do remember buying pellets for $170 per ton and it wasnt that long ago either. its $80 per ton more now then it was then. YIKES

I have an Englander 25-PDVC and I think it’s a great unit for the price. I hate when people give it a bad rap.

In the cold of winter last year, mine ran 24/7 quite often.

As for ash buildup, I shut the unit off and scoop out the fire-box with a metal spatula once in the morning before I leave for work and once at night.

There is room on the sides of the firebox to dump this red hot ash and quickly get the stove started again in about 5-minutes.

Then on Saturdays, I completely shut the stove down and let it cool for about an hour.

I then use my Ash Vac (Powersmith) to completely clean the firebox and the piles of ash on the sides.

No need for an ash pan or long periods of “cold time” with this method.

I ended up getting a harman accentra for many reasons looks,reliability, excelent craftsmanship,top of the line parts,but most of all the reason we purchased it was ease of use.try downloading the manuals on maintenance to see wich stove might be right for you hope this helps.Love my harman