Small depth insert - overwhelmed

sabb · Oct 14, 2014

I've read the "read before you post links" so a lot of these details are based on those primers. I've visited at least 15 mfr websites, read EPA reports, and crunched numbers off and on for months. Well, it's getting cold and its time to decide if this year is possible or if I gotta save my pennies til next year.

I'm having a real hard time getting retailers to call me back, when they do, I seem to know options better than they do (which is scary since I feel lost), and when I went to a showroom today, they had nothing close to what I'm interested in (options wise... I can't even find enough choices to actually price shop!). Help!?!... is there actually a product out there that fits my list?

I would like to spend a total of ~$3000. Based on initial estimates, $1000 of that is going to installation.

I like clean, simple (contemporary) lines. I don’t want arches or anything fancy. A nice square, black box as flush as possible is my preference. I Love the look of the Regency Alterra CI1250 or Osburn Matrix (too big) but I really want a catalytic insert with lower emissions (ideal under 1 gm/hr but up to 2 will be considered). I prefer steel for lowest maintenance but cast iron is ok. I would like the largest fireview possible within these other guidelines.

I plan to burn seasoned hardwood as needed in late fall/early spring and 24/7 for the winter (central NC). Climate history suggests lows from high 20’s - low 30’s during the winter months. We prefer a warmer house around 70-72 and overnights will necessitate a min burntime of 8 hours.

The house is a 2-story, cape cod style, timber-built home with rough sawn wood siding, metal roof, moderate insulation overall and approx 1750 sq ft. Open beam plan - dining, family, and kitchen combined (750 sq ft + 120 sq ft loft) w/ adjacent master bedroom on 1st floor. 2nd floor loft is just above the fireplace (in the dining area) and 2 upstairs bedrooms are above the kitchen area / master bedroom.

My biggest problems seem to be:

- I want very low emissions
- I want a thermostatic controlled variable-speed blower
- My stone fireplace has weird dimensions: 32h x 40w x 17d
- My budget is small

Here are some images of the space but the kitchen is open and attached as well

Any suggestions on the best fit or models to check out would be greatly appreciated. I'm exhausted and still have no idea what to buy.

webby3650 · Oct 14, 2014

You have a few musts that are making this difficult. Small flush, super low emissions, overnight burns, and a small budget don't usually go together very well.
We do the Lopi 1750 with telescoping legs out front in setups like your pretty often. Its a little cheaper and can handle overnight burns, but it's not flush at all.

BruceNorEast · Oct 14, 2014

If you are choosing the cat stove for its apparently lower emissions, I believe those are for a new catalytic converter and the regs for having them lower was to have their average emissions over the cats lifetime still be below the overall EPA goals for newer stoves. They degrade with use which results in trending higher emissions over time.

Have you considered placing the stove in front of the fireplace?

A year ago I was leaning insert, but became convinced it was a poor choose for me (external masonry chimney would be a large heat loss, inserts radiate less heat than free standing stoves, inserts depend on blowers to move heated air but we have had very long power outages over past winters, several more than one week, plus I didn't want the noise) and now have a free standing stove located in front of the fireplace.

So far anyway, I am convinced this was the right choice.

Grisu · Oct 14, 2014

As the others said already, a lot of conflicting requirements that are unlikely to be fulfilled by one insert. Some problems:

Cat insert/low emissions: Not that many out there and usually more expensive.
Budget: $3000 including install will drop you into the budget category of inserts. (Century for example)
Flush face: A flush insert with a 17" depth will be hard to find. Especially when it is supposed to heat 1700 sqft.

I also looked at the pictures and suspect what you have is not a masonry but a prefab zero clearance fireplace. What kind of chimney do you have? Is it a round steel flue going up in a wooden chase?

Putting an insert in such a fireplace is a bit tricky as most fireplace manufacturers don't allow the installation of an insert. However, several inserts have in their UL listing that the insert can be installed in ZC fireplace. It is a grey area and your local code authority and home insurance may be ok with an insert or not. It is certainly a good idea to ask them first before proceeding.

OhioBurner© · Oct 14, 2014

sabb said:
I would like to spend a total of ~$3000. Based on initial estimates, $1000 of that is going to installation.

Including venting? You're probably going to need some kind of liner... not sure if that was included in your $1000 installation quote (I got half off on my installation using a duravent liner system and the liner and installation of the liner and stove was still over $1k). But my second stove I did DIY with a flexible liner kit for around $300.

I think that 17" depth and flush does leave you with few choices (and smaller fireboxes, make it hard for 8hr burn). That is very similar dimensions to mine but just a tiny bit smaller. I bought the biggest insert I could fit that I liked, the Rockland, and it needs 18" depth and pretty much touches on the corners in my fireplace. Its flush though, but wide, so still has a large capacity and could get 8hrs if fully packed with good wood. Its steel (has cast iron trim though) and available with a plain surround if you prefer that. You sure you can't squeeze one more inch in there? Not catalytic and probably too expensive though. Hopefully some others will be aware of something that might fit your criteria.

Andy S. · Oct 14, 2014

I don't think you can get there from here. The Hampton HI300 requires 17.5" deep, is non-cat and will definitely be too expensive since my HI200 (which will definitely fit) was $3500 installed with insulated liner. You might also check out the Quad 2700i. It will also exceed budget but it has a .4 ft3 larger firebox. At 17-1/4" depth may be able to squeeze in there if you have a big hammer.

AnalogKid · Oct 14, 2014

Take a look at the EcoChoice WINS18. It has a very contemporary look, no curves or arches and a very large viewing glass. It is also very reasonably priced at or around $1800. It has a nice sized firebox at 2cuft. The WINS18 also comes with the thermostatic blower that you desire, as standard equipment. It will fit perfectly in the dimensions you are dealing with.

Now, what it doesn't have is a cat. Its emissions output is 2.6. And it is not a totally flush mount, but it doesn't protrude very far.

I had similar requirements as you when I was searching a few years ago. Had to have a contemporary look, large glass, and reasonably priced. The look and size alone won me over, the price was just a bonus. It has been a fantastic stove. You should give it some consideration, I think you will like it.

http://www.heatilatorecochoice.com/products/details.asp?cat=wood-inserts&f=WINS18

begreen · Oct 14, 2014

Nice suggestion. It's good to hear that this is working out well for you. Is this the economy version of the Quad 3100i? That's a nice insert.

AnalogKid · Oct 14, 2014

begreen said:
Nice suggestion. It's good to hear that this is working out well for you. Is this the economy version of the Quad 3100i? That's a nice insert.

I don't believe so. I don't know the particulars of the 3100i but think they are a little different, they do look similar, however. I believe the WINS18 was out a little while before the 3100i was released.

begreen · Oct 14, 2014

Best I can recall the Heatilator line of stoves and fireplaces was introduced as a value line about 3 years ago by HHI. This was to compete with the value lines by Travis, PE, Napoleon, etc.. The Quad 3100i has been out for longer than that. My docs are dated 2008 for that insert.

AnalogKid · Oct 14, 2014

begreen said:
Best I can recall the Heatilator line of stoves and fireplaces was introduced as a value line about 3 years ago by HHI. This was to compete with the value lines by Travis, PE, Napoleon, etc.. The Quad 3100i has been out for longer than that. My docs are dated 2008 for that insert.

OK, then I am mistaken. Yes, I bought mine in 2011 and they had just been released. No idea if there is a relation to the 3100i.

begreen · Oct 14, 2014

So far these value line stoves appear to be doing well. They have no bells and whistles, but are generally good units. I'm not sure but I wouldn't be surprised if the WINS18 is a 3100 without the ACC and with more basic trim. If so it has a good heritage. I agree that in this case simpler creates a cleaner more contemporary look.

AnalogKid · Oct 14, 2014

I'm no stove guru, but I've enjoyed the heck out of mine. Excited to get into my 3rd season with it.

mstoelton · Oct 14, 2014

sabb said:
My biggest problems seem to be:
- I want very low emissions
- I want a thermostatic controlled variable-speed blower
- My stone fireplace has weird dimensions: 32h x 40w x 17d
- My budget is small

I suggest you prioritize your "wants" a bit. Determine what is most important and go with the results.

Everyone wants a cheap efficient, attractive, thermo controlled insert that is just the right dimensions for their fireplace, but that isn't reality. I believe you also said you wanted low maintenance, that will pretty much eliminate catalytic due to the need to service the cat. So you may want to go with a unit that has only secondary burn. They tend to be lower in cost but they also have higher emissions. Cat stoves are also more expensive.

Refine your wants a bit and you might find your "ideal insert".

BruceNorEast · Oct 14, 2014

Saab, you've gotten a lot of good advice.

Don't be surprised about not having people tripping over each other to service you right now, they probably have more business than they can handle.

Like you, I found that I knew much more than most of the people I spoke with, when I went to the stove shops. Most are general sales help with little knowledge beyond the brochures.

Accept the challenge to educate yourself and to make a rational decision. The people here are knowledgable and helpful, you're likely to get a diversity of opinions and perspectives that can help you to make up your own mind.

If you reach a point where you feel that you can't proceed, step back and take a breath. I almost went with one type of stove only to decide a year later to go a different way. It's unlikely you'll regret taking your time to decide

Good luck to you, and welcome to the group.

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Small depth insert - overwhelmed

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