Not really impressed with insert because of cold draft issues. Need Outside air kit?

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Mr. Jones

Mr. Jones

Feeling the Heat
Oct 25, 2012
265
Kennewick, Washington
Here's the deal. I got this thing off cl for $200. Couldn't pass it up, since they're going for $500-$800 all day. Anyways, I've got it going good a couple of nights now to test it out, and unfortunately, it's old, like my house. My problem is it's too old for an outside air kit. Right now I've got a fire going, and while I'm sitting here typing this, it's nice as can be about two feet and above in this living room. Below that, there is a freezing draft rushing by my legs in shorts. The living room is the only room that gets warm, and the rest of the bedrooms are actually colder because of the fire, due to freezing air rushing through all the single pane windows. I can't afford 20K plus right now for new windows and doors in this mid 50's house. I feel like I'm wasting a huge amount of wood heat competing with the cold air rushing in battling with the warm air from the stove. The only thing I can think of doing is biting the bullet, and shelling out a few thousand for an insert that has an open air kit as an option. This way there is no cold air coming in period, since there's no negative pressure. Have the same problem in the summer with the portable air conditioner that only has an exhaust tube, and not an intake tube. Not sure why that would even be an option??? What say you?
 
if you have that much leakage it wont matter you will hve drafts with or with out oak. Plastic wrap the windows it is a pain but it is cheap and it works
 
i would use the couple thousand or so to tighten the house up instead of fighting the drafty old house in a different way.

While not optimum, calking and plastic can go a long way toward sealing the old windows and a couple thousand dollars should go a long way toward tightening your house in general providing you do it yourself.
 
Mr Jones,

You may be able to adapt the stove for an Outside Air Kit yourself. See if you can locate the air intakes (there may be more than one, my stove has four - one pair for primary air and one pair for the secondaries), and how tough it might be to make something to cover them. Materials would have to be non flammable and safe to use near heat (don't use galvanized metal as there's a toxic risk from the zinc coating. You may be able to use stove gasket rope to help seal it, it's cheap and available from hardware stores), but it's possible if you or someone you know is relatively handy with sheet metal. Obviously use care and due caution, and you may need to have it inspected to satisfy your homeowners insurance.

If you are considering a new stove for your (currently very drafty, poorly insulated) home, I would urge you to consider a Freestanding stove over an insert; it's much more likely to help you get & keep heat in the house, in my opinion.

I've read comments from many owners and admirers of the Englander 30 here, I believe it retails for less than $1000 at some of he big box stores. Then you may have leftover money to apply toward tightening up the house.

Good luck to you!
 
Thanks for the replies. I'll take the advice to seal up better with plastic, n such. I actually already do that the last two years, but haven't made it to it yet. I still have 2 ac's in the windows I haven't taken out yet. Here's my deal though. Although I'm not a physics professor, I'm still having a hard time understanding how OAK wouldn't do anything for the rushing air at the floor toward the fireplace. It seems to me that by not having the OAK, I'm basically doing the same as attaching and sealing my shop vac's exhaust out a window, therefore creating a negative pressure. Whatever is coming out of the top of the chimney is what's coming thought everything else. "Especially my dog door". The only thing I can thing that would STILL create a draft is the hotter air in the house being thinner than the outside air that's cold. That should be mininmal though, compared to the draft coming in so fast, it's almost pointless to have a fire because of the rest of the house that gets and stays freezing from the negative pressure, and doesn't benefit from the stove heat at all, since it's just too far away. Maybe if I slept out in the living room, brought out a bunk bed that's about the same height as the back of the couch, I wouldn't burn up at the top, or freeze at the bottom of the room, lol.
 
You've got a house problem not a stove problem. As others have said, OAK or not, your draft will still be there because your stove is so inefficient and the heat goes up the chimney. A $500 stove is junk IMHO. You are better off sealing and insulating the house and especially, get those a/c's out of the windows.
 
You should install a block off plate since this is in a fireplace. If its an exterior fireplace you may want to insulate behind the insert.
 
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You will never complete eliminate the cold vs hot natural convention currents in the house ( single or 2 story?) In fact I rely on them to transport heat from the central location of my stove to the furthest rooms
 
What insert are we talking about here?
 
blades said:
You will never complete eliminate the cold vs hot natural convention currents in the house ( single or 2 story?) In fact I rely on them to transport heat from the central location of my stove to the furthest rooms
Click to expand...
It's 2 story. We've had fires downstairs for decades in the old BK, but burn through the wood since it's so inefficient. I'm thinking about just using this "new to me" old one I just installed upstairs only once in awhile for ambiance of the flames, vs actual heat, and go back to using the downstairs. My thinking is, since my house is so drafty, it might as well pull a draft from downstairs, and the garage area. Since we're not really down there much, might as well let the air a foot off the ground down there be freezing, and pulling in air down there more, vs upstairs. This way the heat will rise to the ceiling down there, which is the floor up here, and slowly leak up here. Again, I'm no physics professor, but this seems like it should work better. At least until I can stop some of the air leaks upstairs, and get a newer stove.
 
The draft problem will not be eliminated using an OAK. If the house is that poorly insulated and leaky, any cold windy day will give you the same draft. I remember an old architecture prof told me: "wind doesn't blow, it sucks" in reference to draft in a house. IOW, on a windy day, the negative air pressure on the leeward side of the house sucks air out through anywhere it will can. If you cut a 3x3 FOOT hole in the side of your house, that's the average leakage of most houses built a few decades ago. An OAK is either a 3 or 4 INCH opening. That represents just a tiny part of your problem.

If you spent $2K on insulation and sealing, it will be money much better spent than buying a new insert. A really good new insert will have mid 80's efficiency but the difference is not enough to get rid of the cold draft, even with an OAK.

I live in a large, well insulated air tight house and in our great room, we still get a cool draft on the floor from the air circulation, it's physics. Buy some warm leggings and a few rolls of heavy vapor barrier.
 
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I have some casement windows that leak cold drafts. Until i can replace them, I have been very successful at rolling up plastic wrap and pushing it down into the cracks. This sealed them up and I stopped getting condensation on the inside of the windows, due to drafts. "Yankee engineering" but it works very well. Plastic is a great insulator and barrier.
 
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Mr Jones, I think you are at least partially correct. Without OAK the air going up the chimney draws air into the house and is probably at least a component of what you feel at floor level.

Question: How does it compare when there is no fire?

It seems to me the answer to that question would give you a pretty good indication of what an OAK might do.

Is your chimney blocked off at the top and the bottom? At the top there should be a plate that seals the chimney so only the vents contents can pass (you do have a vent, don't you?). Same with a block off plate where the fireplace damper used to be. If not, then some might also be going up around the pipe as it heats the surrounding air, and an OAK won't fix that part.

Can you use insence or a cigarette or something that gives off smoke to backtrack the source of the drafts that you feel? Might lead you to the source of the worst leaks...
 
Yeah i cant believe we didn't ask yet do you have a liner and blockoff plate?
 
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BruceNorEast said:
Mr Jones, I think you are at least partially correct. Without OAK the air going up the chimney draws air into the house and is probably at least a component of what you feel at floor level.

Question: How does it compare when there is no fire?

It seems to me the answer to that question would give you a pretty good indication of what an OAK might do.

Is your chimney blocked off at the top and the bottom? At the top there should be a plate that seals the chimney so only the vents contents can pass (you do have a vent, don't you?). Same with a block off plate where the fireplace damper used to be. If not, then some might also be going up around the pipe as it heats the surrounding air, and an OAK won't fix that part.

Can you use insence or a cigarette or something that gives off smoke to backtrack the source of the drafts that you feel? Might lead you to the source of the worst leaks...
Click to expand...
Nope, she's a slammer. I know, I know. I'm guessing the two window ac units, and the dog door was a big contributing factor to the almost wind like behind me cold draft last night. It was to the point that even if I opened up the air inlet, and let her roar, the more cold air that would follow rushing in and nullifying any more heat coming out, or at least it felt that way with shorts on, lol.
I'm currently putting up that plastic that shrinks when you heat it. Kinda spendy stuff if you do it every year. Trying to seal the doors better, and the dog door too. Hopefully this will help out a bit. I do understand what you mean about the plates though at the top and bottom of the chimney. Didn't know they were at the top too. Of course, there isn't any at the moment being a slammer for the time being, until I can save up and get a newer stove installed correctly. Problem is, as it sounds from others here, I have a house issue, and not a stove issue as much. Old 1952 brick 2 story with single pane windows almost as big as the walls in the bedrooms itself. The huge windows out in the living room where the stove are, are at least double pane, but still most of the wall there too. I just blew in insulation last fall. Got er up to 22 inches, which I thing is R-60 to R-70. That helped ALOT from the approximate one inch that was up there from when the house was built. Just draft issues now.
 
Well installed as a slammer you are sucking a lot more air up that chimney than if it was properly installed with a liner and a blockoff plate not to mention the safety issues associated with slammers
 
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Your situation reminds me of a mid-60's house I lived in once with an open fireplace. I tried everything with that fireplace including fabricating a tube manifold with a blower but no matter what, the bigger the fire, to colder the house (almost).

Conventional wisdom will tell you to fix the house first and I'll agree with that. Since you already have installed some insulation, it sounds like fixing the leaks (including the blocking) shouldn't be too expensive and no matter what kind of stove you end up with, you need to do that first anyway. Then you can get yourself a more modern, efficient insert with an OAK and be toasty.
 
With our old insert, and a sectional couch sitting across the room in front of it, your neck would get frostbite from the cold air moving up and over the back of the couch to get to the insert. Especially with the blowers running.
 
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Install it correctly and strat sealing the house up you will see a big difference. What size outlet does the insert have?
 
in that case i would consider getting a new insert instead of dropping an 8" liner for that one unless you really like it most new stuff will use 6"
 
BrotherBart said:
With our old insert, and a sectional couch sitting across the room in front of it, your neck would get frostbite from the cold air moving up and over the back of the couch to get to the insert. Especially with the blowers running.
Click to expand...
I'm with Bart on this, if your running the blower, what your feeling is cooler air working it's way to the insert to be circulated by the blower.
 
Well, spent the whole off day taking out ac units, putting up shrink film over the single pane windows, and sealing up the dog door better. Also foamed with great stuff around outside holes like heat pump hose, and electric meter. Unfortunately it got warmer last night, so it was hard to tell if if help a lot, but I think it did. I think it was like 58 to 60 here last night, so it wasn't as cold as the other night, where I could really feel the cold air rushing toward the stove. Still have a few basement windows to seal up. Whatever you do, don't get great stuff on your hands. It's like super glue. Stupid straw unscrewed a bit while I was applying it, watching what I was applying, and of course, it came out all over the top of the can, all over my hands. Guess you have to wear it off.
I'm not sure if the outside wall electrical outlets are worth taking all off and adding the foam barriers or not.
 
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