Wood Pellets Vs. Natural Gas and Many other Fuel Prices???

Based on one of those calculators: my house: natural gas= 50.59 per mill BTU
pellets: 18.94 per mill BTU. Add NYS sales tax on the gas of 2.5% and supply fee of about 11 bucks for every 30 therms. The natural gas bill for just using my hot water heater and oven is roughly 60 bucks a month before touching the NG burner thermostat. Loooong story short, pellets are much cheaper for me.

bogieb said:

With propane prices at $3 (yeah right - more like 3.39 if I'm lucky).....

Click to expand...

My son lives in Brentwood, NH and his neighborhood just negotiated a 12 month lock in rate of $2.19 a gallon for propane.

$2.50 a gallon propane locked in rate. They will buy your tank.
Townsend Energy delivers Propane to Brentwood, NH.
Call Bill at 978-705-2323 or 617 893 9711

Rye Energy - propane $1.92 first fill up.
After that $2.19 but no lock in rate
Call Ralph 603-234-1292,

Husky said:

For me I have been buying my wood for the past 8 years. My first 15 years of wood burning I had access to free wood. If I was still able to get free wood and just had my labor I would still have a wood stove. I needed to replace my wood stove due to metal fatigue so I had to make a decision. Changing to a pellet stove was a basically a wash for me. The stove and install were about equal and the amount I will spend on pellets is close to what I was purchasing for wood. If you have ever stacked pellet bags compared to stacking wood you would have to agree that pellets are much easier to handle and I don't need to season my pellets before I use them. I would agree with you that maintenance is quite a bit more with a pellet stove, but it is real easy after you do it a few times. I do like burning wood but pellets are easier and get the job done for me.

Click to expand...

don't know what the big deal about stackin pellets is.
3 of us loaded 2 tons from the truck into the basement in 20 minutes or so...Done
don't have to get up in the middle of the night and load more wood...
can go for weeks and not empty the ash pan....and those are just off the top of my head.
but it is fun to read these posts about how great wood burnin is....

Chitownhillbilly said:

I spend ~30 min a week Cleaning and fidgeting with my Pellet stove. My friend heats with wood and spends every spare waking hour Cutting, Splitting, Stacking and hauling in the Spring and Summer. I personally don't think it's anywhere close to the same amount of time.

Click to expand...

I did that too for many, many years but finally decided I didn't want any more of it after 50 years of pure unloving labor! If I lived in Pa. still, I'd have a coal stoker and have NO labor except emptying ashes twice a week.

Three cords of wood delivered, dumped in the driveway, then stacked in in double rows on pallets down the side of the yard. Did that for years. A good several days' work. Then there's the endless process of bringing them in to feed the stove. It's all a nice ritual, something ancient about tending a fire like that even though I didn't chop the trees. But three tons of pellets, stacked in the shed, is far less work. Don't have to knock the snow off 'em to bring 'em in. And one bag is a lot more BTUs than on armload of firewood. The radiant heat is nicer, as is the more alive flame. But the convenience outweighs it for now.

And where each winter around here has a half-dozen or so homes burn down from wood stoves gone bad, the pellet stove house fire is something that hasn't made the papers yet.

tjnamtiw said:

I did that too for many, many years but finally decided I didn't want any more of it after 50 years of pure unloving labor! If I lived in Pa. still, I'd have a coal stoker and have NO labor except emptying ashes twice a week.

Click to expand...

In Georgia if it's more than a decoration it's time to move further south...lol

SidecarFlip said:

In Georgia if it's more than a decoration it's time to move further south...lol

Click to expand...

That's what I thought when I moved down here to be a Damn Yankee! It was 18 degrees last night! I sure don't want to move down any further south because I can't speak Spanish! It's hard enough to know how to speak Southern!

tjnamtiw said:

This calculator is even better since you can enter in information about your hot air ductwork, if you have it.
http://www.buildinggreen.com/calc/fuel_cost.cfm

Click to expand...

Much has been missed and overlooked in this discussion, from many people simply overlooking this very useful post and link from tjnamtiw (thank you for sharing it, btw, and Brother Bart, I propose that link as a sticky for the forum).

I always end up somewhere between amused and disgusted when people argue over what fuel is cheaper. These are ALWAYS simply math equations. If you know just a small amount of rudimentary info about your home such as the very appproximate way it was built, you can get a good idea about what fuel works best for you. That calculator is the best I've seen for a normal homeowner. The thing that this link takes into account, which so many calculators overlook, is SYSTEM (not just heater) EFFICIENCY. This is especially important for forced air systems because many homes have such poorly constructed air distribution systems (ductwork). If you lose a large % of your heated air through your ductwork, your actual cost skyrockets. And many systems are built so that the returns actually suck unconditioned air into the ducts. It's the reason simply turning on the furnace blower doesn't work for many pellet / wood stove owners: You lose much of the heat to leaks in the ducts, and pull unconditioned air in. BTW, returns are very often more of a problem than supply ducts, and both must be taken into consideration because these systems are loops that cycle air through a home. Returns - particularly in pre 1990s / 2000s homes - often used joist bays as the return. These are nightmares of efficiency, and very expensive (practically impossible) to fix.

UpStateNY said:

My son lives in Brentwood, NH and his neighborhood just negotiated a 12 month lock in rate of $2.19 a gallon for propane.

$2.50 a gallon propane locked in rate. They will buy your tank.
Townsend Energy delivers Propane to Brentwood, NH.
Call Bill at 978-705-2323 or 617 893 9711

Rye Energy - propane $1.92 first fill up.
After that $2.19 but no lock in rate
Call Ralph 603-234-1292,

Click to expand...

Don't live anywhere close to Brentwood. And if you don't use much propane, they don't negotiate. Already have 3 tons of pellets so will burn those. Thank you for trying to help though.

Oil delivery scheduled for today at 3.00 a gallon. Using oil never run the heat higher than 66 at the current oil price, I'm still ahead running a bag of pellets a day at 70 degrees. Paid 535 Inc. Delivery for two tons in August

Husky said:

You did something wrong. Look at your bill and see how many therms you used last month. Divide that by the total cost of your NG, suppy/delivery and taxes. Don't forget to subtract out your electric portion if you get it from same company. That will give you the cost of a therm. Put that number in the calculator. NG can't be costing you $50.59 per mill BTU unless your furnace is very low on efficiency. Most older furnaces are at least 70% efficient.

Click to expand...

I agree. That $50+ per million btus is WAY off. My cost here in new England is $16.25. I have used this calculator in the past. http://pelletheat.org/pellets/compare-fuel-costs/

I find these calculators interesting but of limited use. After all I have no real idea of the efficiency of my oil burner, nor of my pellet stove for that matter. Neither do I buy my heat by the BTU or Therm.

What I am certain of is that, not counting sales tax, at the current 2.799/gallon for No.2 oil, I would spend about $2700 on heating oil, and more if the winter is severe. By contrast I have my 4+ tons in house at a total cost (again without the sales tax) of $1185.

I'll take the real number over a calculator any day.

RKS130 said:

I find these calculators interesting but of limited use. After all I have no real idea of the efficiency of my oil burner, nor of my pellet stove for that matter. Neither do I buy my heat by the BTU or Therm.

What I am certain of is that, not counting sales tax, at the current 2.799/gallon for No.2 oil, I would spend about $2700 on heating oil, and more if the winter is severe. By contrast I have my 4+ tons in house at a total cost (again without the sales tax) of $1185.

I'll take the real number over a calculator any day.

Click to expand...

Doesn't it always make you wonder where the other BTU's go?

I had many interesting conversations with heating contractors on sizing a system. From a oil contractor wanting to put in 75k btu boiler to a geothermal contractor wanting to put in a 30k btu heating appliance.

Pellet stoves are more closely matched to your load which makes a huge difference. I suspect if you had a oil stove in your living room rated at 30k btu you would see the same savings.

Husky said:

You did something wrong. Look at your bill and see how many therms you used last month. Divide that by the total cost of your NG, suppy/delivery and taxes. Don't forget to subtract out your electric portion if you get it from same company. That will give you the cost of a therm. Put that number in the calculator. NG can't be costing you $50.59 per mill BTU unless your furnace is very low on efficiency. Most older furnaces are at least 70% efficient.

Click to expand...

Plugged in the numbers, efficiency, etc. I'll try again, but I don't know. Haha

I have older uninsulated duct work, that seems to be the killer. My last month bill was 2.25 per therm. And no,my electric bill is separate.

RKS130 said:

I find these calculators interesting but of limited use. After all I have no real idea of the efficiency of my oil burner, nor of my pellet stove for that matter. Neither do I buy my heat by the BTU or Therm.

What I am certain of is that, not counting sales tax, at the current 2.799/gallon for No.2 oil, I would spend about $2700 on heating oil, and more if the winter is severe. By contrast I have my 4+ tons in house at a total cost (again without the sales tax) of $1185.

I'll take the real number over a calculator any day.

Click to expand...

there should not be tax on either home heating fuel, if there is it is only the County portion, none what so ever at the state level in NY

In my area, natural gas is the cheapest way to go. The problem is, I live outside of the service area. If it were available, I wouldn't have a pellet stove. My other option is electric, but pellets are cheaper than my electric furnace. In January, I'll be installing solar hot water tubes to cut down on the electric bill.

lagger said:

there should not be tax on either home heating fuel, if there is it is only the County portion, none what so ever at the state level in NY

Click to expand...

Agreed. The thieves in our county (Westchester) legislature decided that 3% was about as much as they could get away with, and so it is!

RKS130 said:

Agreed. The thieves in our county (Westchester) legislature decided that 3% was about as much as they could get away with, and so it is!

Click to expand...

Come to Suffolk or Nassau. I pay 10k a year in property tax. My property is 75' X 136'. I'm sure there is a hefty county tax on fuel oil as well, but I have NG.

Ranger72 said:

I have older uninsulated duct work, that seems to be the killer. My last month bill was 2.25 per therm. And no,my electric bill is separate.

Click to expand...

Unless you have a secret pipeline connected to CT or NYC, you get your NG from the same company I get mine: National Greed (aka National Grid, formerly KeySpan, formerly MarketSpan, formerly LILCO).
Our NG prices are surprisingly comparable to the rest of the country, unlike our electric rates (which contain the interest payments on a Nuke plant left stranded long ago).

Your calculation of $2.25 per therm is probably during your Summer use period when the $22/mo basic connection charge is skewing your minimal usage charge.

I have the same situation when I use 10-15 therms per month in the summer,
and use more like 150-200 therms in the winter per month.

If you look at your "year end" billing summary (balanced billing), or just add your full years Therm usage and compare to annual bills, you'll find a better $/therm number.

My calander 2012 costs were 1.46 $/Therm (used 937 therms).
My calander 2013 costs were 1.38 $/Therm (used 1028 therms).

The actual NG (fuel only) cost last winter were about 0.55 $/Therm, and dropped to about 0.35 $/Therm this past summer. Our major costs are in the Basic & the Delivery. The Taxes are remarkably reasonable.

For me the cost of pellet heat would be more expensive and more work, but I like to be diversified and I love the look & smell of a wood fire. Stuffing something in my "heat robbing" empty fireplace is also be a benefit.

Ranger72 said:

Come to Suffolk or Nassau. I pay 10k a year in property tax. My property is 75' X 136'. I'm sure there is a hefty county tax on fuel oil as well, but I have NG.

Click to expand...

ouch .. can't imagine what property taxes in my old town are now, Stonybrook, as it is I am in upstate NY now in an expensive school district, 2000 sq ft house built in '03 (larger assesment than older homes) 3 acres of land total tax bill last year was just short of 8 k .. will be less in 2015 as I will be 65 in May and qualify for enhanced star that will take 40k off of my 133 k assesment (on true mkt value of 270k)

About the oversized oil/gas systems the contractors prefers to install... I think there must be a thinking, mostly with the older people, that a smaller, rightly sized system heating nearly all the time, will cost a lot in oil/gas cost, because "it never stops". They would prefere the furnace going on for an intense blast of 5 minutes, then shut off for some time. Obviously, the later will produce large temperature variations and ultimately cost more.

It's also clear that the installer prefere to sell you a bigger, more expensive appliance...

About 20 years ago, my parents had a 50k btu oil furnace installed in a small 25 X 25, 1.5 story house. Obviously, the thing is loud, displace a lot of air and is constantly going on-off, with 5 degrees of temperature variation. Not my definition of comfort. YMMV.

CaptSpiff said:

Unless you have a secret pipeline connected to CT or NYC, you get your NG from the same company I get mine: National Greed (aka National Grid, formerly KeySpan, formerly MarketSpan, formerly LILCO).
Our NG prices are surprisingly comparable to the rest of the country, unlike our electric rates (which contain the interest payments on a Nuke plant left stranded long ago).

Your calculation of $2.25 per therm is probably during your Summer use period when the $22/mo basic connection charge is skewing your minimal usage charge.

I have the same situation when I use 10-15 therms per month in the summer,
and use more like 150-200 therms in the winter per month.

If you look at your "year end" billing summary (balanced billing), or just add your full years Therm usage and compare to annual bills, you'll find a better $/therm number.

My calander 2012 costs were 1.46 $/Therm (used 937 therms).
My calander 2013 costs were 1.38 $/Therm (used 1028 therms).

The actual NG (fuel only) cost last winter were about 0.55 $/Therm, and dropped to about 0.35 $/Therm this past summer. Our major costs are in the Basic & the Delivery. The Taxes are remarkably reasonable.

For me the cost of pellet heat would be more expensive and more work, but I like to be diversified and I love the look & smell of a wood fire. Stuffing something in my "heat robbing" empty fireplace is also be a benefit.

Click to expand...

The therm usage number was from my October bill. I don't do balanced billing. If I were to use my furnace to heat the house to the comfort level my wife likes, I would be paying 200 a month easily. (been there dive that) my pellet stove is more cost effective. I've done the math on my house.