"HD" Insert - Recommendations Please!

SimonG · Nov 22, 2014

Hi all, first post on hearth.com. Many thanks for all the great insights, tips and information I've already discovered here. Who knew there was so much to learn about simply burning something?

Anyway, the reason I've put my virtual pen to the virtual paper is that it's been cold here (Denver, Colorado) and we have realized our gas bill will be huge and our fireplace is a huge part of that. Not only does it not heat even the family room, it sucks whatever heat there is right up the chimney - even when its not lit and the damper is closed. So, time for an insert to fix all 3 issues.

My wife wants one to match the HD TV - rectangular, black surround and a flat-screen with a big view of the action!

Some information to help :

Our house is an open-plan tri-level - 2,600 sq ft. The goal is to supplement the natural gas heating as much as possible but not to make fire-tending a full-time occupation!

The opening is 42Wx25H and firebox is 25" deep so there is room for something huge, in fact, neither of us wants a small unit with a large expanse of black surrounding it. I have attempted to attach a photo of the fireplace as it looks today.

The chimney is about 20 feet tall and draws well - it goes up through the inside of the west-facing wall and appears to be made of concrete blocks cemented together. I'm not a fan of this method of chimney construction in a wood-frame house - the risk of a small crack in the cement causing a fire is too great - so a full chimney liner will definitely be going in.

A lot of research here and on manufacturers' web sites has narrowed my initial list to just 3 units - 2 non-cat and one cat.

Regency CI2600 - the forerunner at the moment
Napoleon EPI3C
Osburn Matrix

We would've just gone ahead with the CI2600 but for the long thread here (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-ci2600-fireplace-insert-risky-costly.132252/) about burn-time issues and what I perceive to be the extra care that needs to be taken with the catalyst unit. We can get one in 1-2 weeks for about $3K plus liner and installation.

Are there any other units we should be considering and what do you think about the Regency and its cat for a complete fireplace noob?

All the best from Denver!!

Grisu · Nov 22, 2014

Welcome to the forum!

You probably want something big for that amount of space. Take a look at the large Hybrid-Fyre wood insert from Lopi/Avalon/Fireplacextraordinaire (same insert with different outside design). Another option would be the Pacific Energy Neo 2.5. That's a new unit so you won't find many reviews yet but the smaller Neo 1.6 seems to be a good heater for its size. PE is known for building quality stoves.

Kudos for getting a liner which preferably should be insulated especially when the the chimney is at an exterior wall. Don't forget to install a block-off plate: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ Your installer will probably need some convincing from your side to do it. If the fireplace is at an exterior wall and since you seem to have plenty of depth, take also a look at this thread about insulating the back and sides: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/

How is your wood supply? Any insert will need wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20%. It is unlikely that you will be able to buy some, especially at this time of the year even when it is being advertised as "seasoned".

SimonG · Nov 22, 2014

Thanks for the info Grisu, we went to the local Fireplacextraordinaire dealer and got a quote for the Hybrid-Fyre. The salesman did mention the need to burn good, dry wood so the cat gets and stays up to temperature. He said their installer would visit in advance to check the work that needs to be done which I found reassuring. The unit was priced at $3950 plus tax, after discounts and including a 25' liner & cap. Install is going to be another 600-700. Ouch !!!

- and I bet the liner isn't insulated.

I have about 1/3 chord of assorted split wood mostly crab-apple and scrub-oak. It's been drying for 2 - 5 years but hasn't been covered recently so I plan to bring it in under our deck then fill the racks with fresh wood sourced from a local supplier. If that's not dry enough, my existing supply should be OK and I believe I can run the insert in bypass if it won't get hot enough.

Dmitry · Nov 23, 2014

I think if you run this in bypass mode it defeats the purpose of having this high tech insert (fpx). You can buy some bio bricks and mix it with your not so perfect wood . That's what I do . There is learning curve. I got my insert month ago and my glass was black for couple weeks from experimenting . Now it takes light cleaning once in a while. First time in my life I'm waiting for colder temps. I'm in CT. The look of FPX is extraodinare indeed . I don't think you can get closers to hd tv look than this .They have many options for faceplate , one of them is with no holes in it , so cool( see the pic). Too soon to tell how it will perform over the years but for now I'm happy with it.
PS : thank you Grisu.Your input was really valuable .

SimonG · Nov 24, 2014

The CI2600 is slightly cheaper but not much so it's a straight fight between it and the Hybrid-Fyre. The H-F is bigger and has lower emissions but bigger isn't always better and the CI2600 has a longer burn time (if you treat it right) and an automatic fan. Also the H-F door opens to the left and our wood pile is to the right of the fireplace. Argh - need to make a decision by 'black Friday' or we'll lose the early season discounts.

Dmitry, can you run the H-F with less than a full load? I don't have a local supplier of bio bricks (nothing within 1,000 miles according to their web site) so I need to run frugally for a while, until I can source some properly dried hardwood. The weather here can be mild at times during the burn season so being able to run light so as not to over-heat the house might be an advantage - just guessing here, I have no experience as you can tell! Can you post a photo of your install? I have seen the brochure but not seen any real customer photos yet.

You both raise a good point about my wood supply so I'll start a separate thread over on that part of the forum - I took a couple of photos of it after the snow stopped today. Are there alternatives to the bio blocks?

Bushfire · Nov 24, 2014

An alternative for bio blocks.....I'm hoping to load up on a truck load of kiln dried reclaimed flooring off cuts today to supplement my less than ideal moisture wood (just above 20%). A mix of firewood and kiln dried should give me a well balanced firebox with an average moisture level below 20%. And the upside is that the off-cuts are free, but hard to stack. I suspect they'll end up as a pile in the garage.

Dmitry · Nov 24, 2014

Yeah , you can run it not fully loaded, I did it maybe once just for the fun of it.The blower has rheostat and you can adjust the air blowing. I got open floor plan and a lot of windows . So it's never skyrocketed to 80s. You can run it slow.
May be you have some other kind of bricks. We got several kinds here
I don't believe it's even possible to score really dry wood here. It's one year of drying covered as a best case scenario .

Dmitry · Nov 24, 2014

Here some pics

SimonG · Nov 24, 2014

Very cool Dmitry, I especially like the 'model'!
Does the H-F really come with a wood moisture meter?

Thanks for the tip Bushfire - I'll check the local CraigsList and see what I can find... I really need to post over on the "Wood Shed" and see if I can find recommendations for local suppliers.

TekHearth · Nov 24, 2014

SimonG said:
...what I perceive to be the extra care that needs to be taken with the catalyst unit. We can get one in 1-2 weeks for about $3K plus liner and installation.

When I was still considering flush mount catalytic units the Regency CI2600 was high on my list as well.

I ended up ruling out cat units for the reasons you mentioned (extra care, maintenance) as well as my sense of general enthusiasm on this board for people's non cat units. Finally, if you haven't read the article on the chimney sweep online on cat vs. non-cat it's probably worth a read, to be taken as one man's opinion alone of course. There's lots of people here who are very happy with their cat units! Blaze King seems very popular.

Dmitry · Nov 24, 2014

It comes with moisture meter , but it shouldn't be a factor , you can by it online for $20 or so.
I read the thread from link above. I never had non cat so no expert . Don't have problem with draft etc. just wanted to mention that I was at the dealer store other day replacing my wood moisture meter that failed and was asking all the question about cat the guy who seemed more knowledgable
.He said I can remove converter if I'm not comfortable with it and put when I want it . Since it's hybrid it'll work as regular stove and" still be most efficient stove in a world" . How about that ?

SimonG · Nov 25, 2014

Hi Dmitry, the meter wasn't a factor, I just thought it unusual and I guess yours failed!

I'm pleased to hear I can operate it without the cat - I might do that if we don't use up our stock or varnished or painted bits of old furniture and the deck that we pulled down (that wood is over 30 years old and most of the paint has long-since flaked off). Are there any emissions figures for the H-F without the cat?

Dmitry · Nov 25, 2014

I don't think they have figures since it's unofficial advice , but the guy said it's still be the " most efficient stove in a world" . I wouldn't worry about catalyst much . Mine works may be half of the time when burning . To make cat engaged you will need to run it hot and keep it half full . I don't burn that hot yet since temps not that low . With your airway shut cat is not gonna work most of the time . That's my experience

Grisu · Nov 25, 2014

SimonG said:
I'm pleased to hear I can operate it without the cat - I might do that if we don't use up our stock or varnished or painted bits of old furniture and the deck that we pulled down (that wood is over 30 years old and most of the paint has long-since flaked off).

Please don't burn that deck wood as it has been most likely pressure treated and contains arsenic. The catalyst will be the least of your worries:

"Burning:Incineration of CCA wood does not destroy arsenic. It is incredible, but a single 12 foot 2 x 6 contains about 27 grams of Arsenic - enough arsenic to kill 250 adults. Burning CCA wood releases the chemical bond holding Arsenic in the wood, and just one Tablespoon of ash from a CCA wood fire contains a lethal dose of Arsenic. Worse yet, Arsenic gives no warning: it does not have a specific taste or odor to warn you of its presence. No one disputes that the ash from burning CCA wood is highly toxic: It is illegal to burn CCA wood in all 50 states. This has serious implications for firefighters, cleanup and landfill operations.
Even more astonishing, minute amounts of 'fly ash' from burning CCA pressure treated wood, can have serious health consequences. The Journal of the American Medical Association reported on a family that burned CCA in a wood stove for winter heating. Their hair fell out, all family members suffered severe, recurring nosebleeds, extreme fatigue and debilitating headaches. The parents complained about 'blacking out' for periods of several hours, followed by long periods of extreme disorientation. Both children suffered frequent seizures described as 'grand mal'. The symptoms were finally traced to breathing minute amounts of arsenic laden dust leaking from the furnace as fly ash. The family's houseplants and fish died, too, victims of copper poisoning from the same dust. Peters HA, et al: Seasonal exposure to arsenic from burning CCA wood. JAMA 251,

18)2393-96, 1984)"

Check with your local waste collection facility about proper disposal of that wood. Btw. Over 30 years old could also easily mean the paint contained lead which is now also in the wood.

Grisu · Nov 25, 2014

Dmitry said:
Too soon to tell how it will perform over the years but for now I'm happy with it. PS : thank you Grisu.Your input was really valuable .

You are very welcome. I am glad you like it. That's a nice looking install. However, one remark: Do you have 16" clearance from the door to the edge of your hearth? Maybe its just the picture but that seems short. Plus, I would be worried about the fur laying there. I had enough embers pop out that far which would have left some ugly marks.

Dmitry · Nov 25, 2014

Omg, Grisu , you ARE minister of fire.Yes , it's 12 inches . I was planning adress it after install . I think my main option is one of those removable hearth extension . Im gonna start new tread now . Don't want to steal this one

Grisu · Nov 25, 2014

SimonG said:
Are there alternatives to the bio blocks?

Quite a few brands around: Envi-blocks, Enviro-bricks, Northern Idaho Energy Logs, Eco blocks to name a few. Check your local hardware stores and stove shops. They may also know some brands that are only available in your region.

highanddryinco · Nov 26, 2014

Welcome SimonG, fellow Denver burner.
Like Grisu said, maybe give the PE a look. Granted my Super 27 is free stander but it's keeping me nice and toasty in a little over 2500 sq. ft. Even in our recent several days of below zero temps, I was able to keep the furnace(s) at bay any time I wanted. When it got that cold, the house wasn't exactly toasty (roughly 63 degrees) in the morning but after eight hours the stove was still too hot to hold a hand on it and had sufficient coals left to light off some bone dry aspen topped with pine with no effort. In minutes after giving the fresh load a quick blackening and then cutting the control all the way back down, it will cruise along at 650-700 for an hour or so before settling back in to around 500 for several more.
Good luck in your choice and your install. Lit my new setup up on New Year's Eve last year -- still absolutely lovin' it.

SimonG · Nov 29, 2014

Thanks for the welcome High 'n' Dry! What have you been doing with your stove over the last few days? It's been so warm here - in the low 70s in Centennial.

We ordered a Hybrid Fyre from the local Spa Brokers! It should be delivered late next week and installed the week after - waiting to hear from the installer on that part.

So, on the installation, given that the chimney is at the end of the house, inside but not insulated, should I get the firebox insulated? The master bedroom is right above and the water supply to the sink runs through the uninsulated space so I was thinking I wouldn't insulate the firebox and let the insert heat up the brickwork and warm the pipes and our bedroom.

Spletz · Nov 29, 2014

SimonG said:
Thanks for the welcome High 'n' Dry! What have you been doing with your stove over the last few days? It's been so warm here - in the low 70s in Centennial.

We ordered a Hybrid Fyre from the local Spa Brokers! It should be delivered late next week and installed the week after - waiting to hear from the installer on that part.

So, on the installation, given that the chimney is at the end of the house, inside but not insulated, should I get the firebox insulated? The master bedroom is right above and the water supply to the sink runs through the uninsulated space so I was thinking I wouldn't insulate the firebox and let the insert heat up the brickwork and warm the pipes and our bedroom.

Congrats, I love mine, but like Dmitry, we know of no other kind. See my thread "cat vs non-cat" on this forum for a bit more info. Love this insert and no issues yet (it's only been a few months)! Biggest gripes are short NS loading and fan set at full is louder than most care for (turn it down a bit and it's fine).

Grisu · Nov 29, 2014

SimonG said:
So, on the installation, given that the chimney is at the end of the house, inside but not insulated, should I get the firebox insulated? The master bedroom is right above and the water supply to the sink runs through the uninsulated space so I was thinking I wouldn't insulate the firebox and let the insert heat up the brickwork and warm the pipes and our bedroom.

If the back of the fireplace is at an exterior wall I would put some insulation there. That will reduce heat loss to the outside. The insert will still heat the inside masonry then. An insulated liner is still recommended - even if it is just to reduce the required clearance to combustibles.

highanddryinco · Nov 29, 2014

That looks like a nice setup. Can't wait to hear how it does for you. I know very little about inserts so I certainly wouldn't be the one to say whether to insulate or not. My gut would say to do whatever it takes to keep that flu temp nice and hot all the way to the top. I think the water pipes will be fine as is and you'll be surprised just how much heat will actually migrate up to your room.

I have been off all week and burning these last few days but mostly one small load first thing in the morning and then again around dinner time until bed time. I may be a little strange but I'm still in that phase where it drives me nuts to hear that furnace kick on at all. Also, my daughter is home from college and she loves to sit in the big chair near the stove and let her feet dangle in front the stove while see curls up with a book.
Where I cut, there's a lot of standing dead aspen and many other blow downs hanging about 45 degrees off the ground. Most of it 8" and smaller that I don't even split. Test splits come in at 10-12%. I've really appreciated it during these not quite as cold days. Aspen is strange. If not number one it must be close to it in the category of heaviest when wet, lightest when dry wood.

You may also be surprised about the wood you can buy around here. We definitely live in a part of the country where we wood burners are in the minority. (Prius good...wood stove bad mentality) Between our relatively low burners number, the harvested beetle kill, and our arid climate, you are likely to find burnable wood from a dealer right now. Get yourself a moisture meter and test a few fresh splits first. I got in a minor pickle last year and had to buy some to supplement in February. My wood stacks were all snowed in up in the hills. That'll probably never happen again.

Fresh shoulder season load coming home before the snow hit.

SimonG · Dec 3, 2014

Install likely to be on the 9th

Dmitry · Dec 4, 2014

Get us some pictures when it's done

SimonG · Dec 11, 2014

Hasn't happened yet, we need some interesting electrical work done to get an outlet into the fireplace so that's being done over this weekend and the insert will be inserted next Tuesday. Shame because it's going to get cold on Sunday.

Are there any standards for these outlets - temperature limits etc?

"HD" Insert - Recommendations Please!

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