Any regrets on insert?

pigc · Dec 1, 2014

Hello everyone!

I've been spending numerous hours on this site the last several weeks and really have learned a lot. I'm about to pull the trigger on a wood insert. I've been burning in an open fireplace that has mesh and glass doors the past seven years. I realize that I am losing a great deal of heat up the chimney but the radiant heat is wonderful in the family room and kitchen.

Our house is 2200 sq. ft on the main level and 800 finished in the basement. An addition was added in '06 by the previous homeowners. We now have two furnaces. My goal is to eliminate one of the furnaces (which the fireplace does pretty well I feel). Our fireplace is in the family room with interior chimney.

I love the open crackle and flames of the fireplace and I can usually get overnight burns with large 12-14" rounds. This is something I'm afraid that I will miss plus not be able to fit some of the wood I currently have cut and stacked. I have a nearly limitless supply of dry, dead wood so that's not really an issue although I would be up for the wood lasting longer.

I'm thinking it will take several years for an insert to pay for itself (like 15) with natural gas being relatively cheap. Also, it seems that these inserts have a bit of a learning curve. Doesn't get much easier with my setup now, guess it's all about the air control.

My main question is am I making a $4k+ mistake or should I just pull the trigger and don't look back?! Does anyone who has burned an open fireplace previously regret their decision on an insert?

cableman · Dec 1, 2014

I just installed an insert for a friend who has been burning an open fireplace for 20 years. They hate change! I was afraid they would both complain, but the other day they said no regrets at all couldnt be happier.

mellow · Dec 1, 2014

Even with free wood you are looking at 15 year ROI?

branchburner · Dec 1, 2014

pigc said:
Does anyone who has burned an open fireplace previously regret their decision on an insert?

My wife and I both love fireplaces. When oil prices spiked in '08, I said "no more." Although she wanted neither, the wife was adamant about getting a freestanding stove over an insert for our main fireplace, that we could quickly go back to a fireplace if wanted. She hasn't wanted, and loves the stove. No regrets.

Burning an open fireplace pulled plenty of outside air into our leaky house. Forced hot air at 70f meant 80f air in our faces and 60f air on our feet, exactly the opposite of what we like. Many fewer cold and flu episodes since we've gone 100% wood. And our stove (bought used) paid for itself before the first burning season was over.

A large firebox will easily get you long overnight burns and use far less wood than the fireplace, and generate far more heat, in doing so. A big glass door means you won't miss the flames of the fire, and the radiant heat of the stove extends far beyond the few feet of an open fire.

One advantage of a freestanding stove over an insert is better heat during power outages (we just lost power for 48+ hours). Either way, I think you will be making a good investment even if gas prices stay low.

Welcome to the forums!

Adios Pantalones · Dec 1, 2014

15 year ROI sounds really fishy. I love my insert- I calculated a very short payback, but was replacing oil in a somewhat drafty (but smaller) house.

Doug Doty · Dec 1, 2014

Having the wife be able to back up to the wood or pellet burner and warm her buns nullifies the need for any ROI at my house.

pigc · Dec 1, 2014

mellow said:
Even with free wood you are looking at 15 year ROI?

I very well could be under-estimating the savings. Our gas bills aren't that high (approx. 150-200 in peak heating season) for both furnaces. So I calculated a savings of $75 a month for 5 heating months of the year.
75x5x14=$5250. Maybe closer to 10 might be more accurate. I certainly don't think 2-5 like many have stated would be applicable in my situation.

mellow · Dec 1, 2014

Some still go with wood even though the ROI is cheaper with other forms of heat, maybe you need to look at this for backup or secondary heat and get a smaller stove.

branchburner · Dec 1, 2014

If you have a nearly limitless supply of dry, dead wood and wanted to put it to use, you could easily cut your gas bill even more greatly and realize a quicker ROI, if that was a goal. Not only will an efficient stove or insert do a lot of heating, it will cut the inflow of cold combustion air that feeds your current open fireplace.

Is it possible that your gas bill might actually go down if you simply stopped using your fireplace? I used to think my fireplace was helping heat the house, but I'm not so sure it wasn't making it cooler in net. But then, I did not have glass doors, and had a huge flue that was left open all night as the coals died, so your setup may be much more efficient.

slayer7 · Dec 1, 2014

Put the insert in during 2009 after the brutal 2008 heating season with sky-high oil prices. We liked burning the fireplace for the ambiance and warmth that it provided for the living room where it's located. However, the only time it was warmer in there was when the thing was raging full on and the rest of the house was still cool. As soon as it started cooling down for the night, the flue draft would suck all the warm air out of the rest of the house making all the other rooms freezing and eventually causing the furnace to run even more than without the fireplace. I think it actually COST me more money to burn the fireplace. I originally put in the insert to use as a supplemental heating source where we could enjoy a fire without losing our shirts and being cold at the same time. It made such a difference that we immediately became 24/7 burners and now enjoy a consistently warm living room that averages around 77 with the rest of the house remaining temperate around 68-70 with small floor fans circulating the air. I also cut my oil bill down to about a fifth of what it was previously so I think my investment has been paid for already including the wood processing toys I accumulated. Frankly, if you generally like it warm, there's nothing like wood heat. We would never turn the thermostat up to 77 for sure and there's something about lounging around in shorts in December with a pile of cats in front of the thing while friends and family living in their homes complain they have to either put on another sweater or crack the thermostat up to 64* because everyone is freezing. ::-)

pigc · Dec 1, 2014

Thanks for all the replies thus far. I've just been reluctant to part with that amount of $$$ and possibly not see the benefits and regretting my decision. My luck I'd get a job transfer shortly after install!

Craig S. · Dec 1, 2014

Around here, natural gas heating costs about 1/3 of the cost of using home heating oil, so I can see the ROI being a bit longer.

Figure in the NY area, gas heat costs about $120/month for a similar size house (2000sqft) so divide $4K by the number of heating months, and you wind up with around 33 months. I'd put that at around 6-7 years tops, assuming the wood is free.

We used to heat with oil (we still use it for hot water), but I got a good deal on my stove (from a member here) before last winter, and the install only cost me materials. We used to get 5 oil deliveries/year, now I get 2. With 'almost' all the firewood being free last year, I figure I've reached the break even point in just over 1 season. If I had gas heat, I still would have made the switch, who doesn't like sitting in the den watching football in 76+ degree heat when there's snow on the ground. No way I'd ever put my thermostat up that high.

bens_igloo · Dec 1, 2014

My wife and I have no regrets over putting in an insert it our masonry chimney. We heat with natural gas which is not too expensive relative to oil, but the insert allows us to keep the home really toasty without worrying about the cost (wood is free for us). Combined with the ambiance, it's been well worth it. Yes there is a learning curve, especially when it comes to how dry your wood has to be. Although my bet is it's going to be a hell of a lot safer than running your open fireplace all night! You should keep that into consideration.

I would have loved to get a freestander, but unfortunately the layout of my home didnt allow it. The insert is in a 9x12 room, that is open to the upstairs and to the rest of the home (1500 square feet + 800 basement). With a freestander the room would have been cramped. The insert heats our entire home on a full load.

Andy S. · Dec 1, 2014

+1 on cutting your gas bill by eliminating the fireplace. If you're able to enjoy your current fireplace while only paying $200/mo in heating costs I think you'd be crazy to change. I did it because I have a heat pump for my 2500 ft2 and I might as well have used balled-up $20's to start my fire if I wanted to use my fireplace. Maybe consider the best of both worlds and put a nice freestanding stove in the basement?

NinjaTech · Dec 1, 2014

+1 on the Insert here. Had a regular fireplace that I had used for years just for the crackling fire, but I never even tried to actually use it for heat. Just wasn't going to happen. Put in a BK Princess insert and have no regrets at all. It will easily go overnight, and keep the house toasty. The only downside to it, is that its catalytic and you don't have the nice fireshow you get with a non-cat or open fireplace. It really is just a hot dark box as quoting another thread. But that is something I was aware of buying it, and when thinking about how long it will burn for I don't miss the pretty fire quite as much.

Fod01 · Dec 1, 2014

Keep in mind the floor plan - open layouts are easier to heat. My insert heats the livingroom and upstairs bedrooms of our cape, but getting the heat to travel around corners to the rest of the house is sketchy.

MetMan · Dec 1, 2014

My ROI was 3 years but I heat with oil and also had the 30% tax credit going for me. Ultimately it's a lifestyle choice as you will see the more you read on this forum. Being in control of your heat is empowering. I have no regrets.

claydogg84 · Dec 1, 2014

If you're paying $150-$200/month in the worst months I think you would be absolutely crazy to make the switch. I say keep what you have and enjoy the fireplace. The amount of work involved in heating with wood 24/7 is immense. Consider possible chainsaw, splitter, and chiropractor visits as well. Perhaps look for a used insert in the $500-$1000 range - that may lessen the blow. what you're basically considering doing is more along the lines of buying a new toy instead of a good investment.

smokedragon · Dec 1, 2014

Doug Doty said:
Having the wife be able to back up to the wood or pellet burner and warm her buns nullifies the need for any ROI at my house.

Amen to that !!!

!!

I would also like to add that we went from fireplace, to insert, to free standing stove. In my instance, I would not take the insert OR the fireplace back. Our stove has a glass, you can see the fire, works for me.

pigc · Dec 1, 2014

Thanks for all of the suggestions, both in favor and against an insert. It is a very hard decision for me. I get mesmerized gazing at the dancing flames.

Claydogg - I realize the work involved in heating 24/7. I'm currently doing almost that with the fireplace now. Cutting wood is my escape from working in a corporate job cooped up in an office all day. I like your idea of a used insert though. Craigslist however has some sketchy looking inserts and we both want something flush mount that is very aesthetically pleasing as well.

Fodog - Not having a very open floor plan worries me. Our living, dining, and kitchen are open but all of the bedrooms are through a doorway that leads down a hall. I'm not very optimistic at getting the heat to the bedrooms and bathrooms but guess that's what our second furnace is for, the bedrooms. At least it's newer and a 90% efficient unit.

Andy S - I wish I had an option to put a freestanding stove in the basement because I certainly would. Unfortunately, an insert on the main level of our ranch home is the only option.

Craig S - It's currently very warm in here and MNF is on and I'm sipping on an imperial stout beer so life is good! :cool:

Branchburner - The fireplace must help because one furnace does not run when the fire is going. Thermostat is in same room. When not burning the damper is closed and mesh and glass doors are closed. I believe we tested this a few years ago and saw a $75 decrease in gas bill when fireplace was used.

Thanks everyone else for the comments. I'm leaning about 65% for an insert and 35% against trying to take everything in account.

Currently 18 degrees outside but a very comfortable 76 in the family room! The open hearth may not be efficient but certainly feels toasty. Recently installed ceiling fan seems to help too.

bens_igloo · Dec 1, 2014

It is definitely possible to find a used insert in good shape, but it takes a lot of patience.

For example, I purchased mine in barely used condition for 1200$ Canadian. After a single fire I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between an insert purchased new and the one I obtained. Of course there's also a lot of junk online! My total cost, including installation, was 2200$.

pigc · Dec 1, 2014

bens_igloo said:
It is definitely possible to find a used insert in good shape, but it takes a lot of patience.

For example, I purchased mine in barely used condition for 1200$ Canadian. After a single fire I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between an insert purchased new and the one I obtained. Of course there's also a lot of junk online! My total cost, including installation, was 2200$.

Did you find it on craigslist or ebay? Any other sites you recommend? That's a good point. I've been burning without an insert 7 years now. What's the rush to get one right now?! I know the wife would be much happier if I could find a nice one around what you paid!

bens_igloo · Dec 1, 2014

I found it on Kijiji which is more popular than Craigslist around here. I think the important thing is to take your time and be picky. I looked at about 5 or 6 units over the course of about 8 or 9 month until I eventually found one in the condition I wanted. It even came with a box of firebrick so it looked nice and new inside.

Hope that helps.

Hatrackr · Dec 1, 2014

I was in the same boat we have natural gas and while it will be years before we break even after the insert, splitter, chainsaw ect it is always warmer in the house than if we didn't have it plus I love cutting and splitting! I can heat our 1900 sq ft colonial pretty good with our kodiak 1700, the bedrooms hang around the mid 60's on the second floor but I like them cooler than the 74 degree main floor anyway. In addition to using less wood and gaining more heat the safety factor was big for us. I never would have run the open fireplace overnight but feel totally safe running the insert 24/7. We have no regrets as we sit in our shorts and t shirts while it's currently 10 outside you still get the view of the fire and get heat long after the flames die out plus there is a certain beauty of watching secondaries dance that an open fireplace just can't match

Just for reference with the insert and liner it was less than $2400 and we did the install maybe look at some of the less expensive options if your worried about ROI

mass_burner · Dec 1, 2014

I would need to thank the previous owners of our house, they put in an insert years ago. My wife got to see and feel how they worked. So in the open fireplace on the other side of the chimney, we put another in. One of our biggest criteria was appearance, we wanted clean, flush mount and modern, with a huge glass.

Any regrets on insert?

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