MAcec has launched a new grant opportunity for Residential Pellet boilers - $12,000

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PassionForFire&Water

Minister of Fire
Jan 14, 2011
725
Billerica, MA
www.caluweinc.com
What is even more amazing is the crickets this announcement has generated on the forum. Why is that?
I would assume that the program only provides benefits for the approved installers and the state employees that oversee the process, and would therefore not be of interest to the readership here. I could of course be wrong, but that likelihood is too small for me to invest time even reading about it.
 
Hmm, that's a pretty cynical view. $12K will pay for most of the equipment cost for a pellet boiler install, leaving the labor cost to the homeowner. Most of that money is going back into the community in the form of wages to the local installer. Since most installers that do pellet boilers couldn't possibly be in it solely for the money and expect to eat, I am curious as to why your attitude is so dismissive.
 
leaving the labor cost to the homeowner
Again, without even bothering to read about it, I would speculate that the chances of the homeowner being able to self-install under the program would be approximately zero to about three decimal places. Furthermore I would speculate that MA would dictate the pellet storage facilities, because 2-4-5-triafraidiummonoxide.
 
So, you think most homeowners should be installing their own boilers, pellet or otherwise? I'd say you're taking it a bit personally, although not enough to inform yourself first about the program before making comment. This begins to sound a lot like sour grapes and I'm sorry I got into this discussion.
 
Well I couldn't resist...I read the requirements. This type of thing smacks a bit of manufacturers lobbying hard and donating heavily to campaign funds but could also be well intentioned, even if perhaps misguided?

The requirements that must be met to get this money are tight, to say the least. Only the highest of high end of systems will qualify from what I can gather. You have to have 3+ tons of bulk storage, must have thermal storage based on size of heat load (unless you get an exemption), must be a modulating boiler, needs to run at very low particulate emissions, must use only premium pellets certified by one of two agencies, must meet 80% of your annual heat load BUT NOT MORE than 110% of your annual heat load, you'll need PE stamped designs and only a "certified installer" can do the work. You also have to agree to always take bulk delivery of pellets and only bulk delivery.

You also have to agree to let MassCEC monitor your system for two full years after installation. You may also be required to submit the prior two years of utility bills for review.

The grant is for up to 45% of the cost of the system, not to exceed $10,000, with a $2,000 "bonus" for thermal storage. With the required spec's outlined in the manual I would say that spending $22,000 would be no problem.
 
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So, you think most homeowners should be installing their own boilers, pellet or otherwise? I'd say you're taking it a bit personally, although not enough to inform yourself first about the program before making comment. This begins to sound a lot like sour grapes and I'm sorry I got into this discussion.

For what it's worth this site is mostly dominated by self-installer DIY types. In addition, we've seen a fair number of these types of programs flow through the board over the years. For the right user these types of grants/rebates can be a great deal but by and large the impact is limited and as EW said it seems like the manufacturers/installers are the ones that benefit the most.
 
I can recall several pellet boiler owners who had their sytems installed professionally under one program or another. I think Maine predominates. Not in NY, though, lol.
 
Thanks to stee for posting!

Full disclosure: I recently partnered up with a former co-worker to do what might be referred to as "two lazy but curious guys trying to stay busy". Formerly we were both employed by a pellet boiler installer in Maine that had large growth objectives. Neither of us were that committed to or enthusiastic about the product we were charged with installing, but we respect the company and its goals. We've been working with Windhager for about six months, and are pretty happy not just with the boiler itself but the system it is part of. Personally, I've been heating 95% exclusively with wood I cut, stack and burn, in a 1990 stove that I refurbished, for the last three and a half years. If the house were mine, I'd have done any number of modifications to the heating system already, but the stove is it thus far. I turn on the oil boiler twice a week to shower and wash dishes, year round. My area of expertise is logistics, not hydronics. I was a Hearth member before being introduced to the pellet industry.

Now, I really appreciate stee's evaluation of the program. I didn't read the requirements so closely that I picked up on the PE stamp for storage. It is a bit strong (okay, ridiculous) but let's look at it this way: the state of Massachusetts needs to show that they're doing something to decrease the dependence on fossil fuel, despite what is probably a lobby against alternative fuels by oil, natural gas and electricity industries. One can pick on the benefit to "qualified installers", but let's face it, the groups that are dead set against alternatives are head, shoulders - down to the ankles - more powerful than the alternative lobbies. All those oil service companies alone are looking at a dying industry that they've invested in and profited from for decades. Do you really believe an installer (who has the lowest margins, regardless of fuel) has much say in the requirements? Believe me, he or she would like a reasonable set of criteria under which to sell a product, not bring in an engineer to approve the methane contents of the air after lunch while they're working. Those requirements are not dictated by the pellet lobby, which probably doesn't exist, but by those who would rather not see pellets (or any other renewable) get established UNTIL they can control it. The real profits in the heating industry are in fuel supply, followed by service.

I don't know from New Hampshire, but Maine is a good deal less burdened with the sort of politics going on in Mass for its rebate program. Requirements and inspections have not been particularly rigorous or frequent under the rebate/grant program. The residential pellet industry is sort of a cottage affair at this point. And because of the low stakes involved, I doubt it will show up on too many radar screens to make it more burdensome. (Fingers crossed, knock on wood) It strikes a good balance IMHO because it will do some good, but not cost a fortune in public money, and be less likely to cause terrific abuse. Mass on the other hand, is a big target for any large company that is selling: lots of well-off people concentrated in a small area. Of course oil and gas interests will choose to have a battle there, there is a lot to lose. They are stalling the progress until they can justify the expense of retraining, retooling and getting rid of their old stock.

So, all you DIY'ers that feel you're being slighted by the program(s) that states are trying to run to get people to get off oil should reevaluate the problem. Stop and think about who you'd be pissing off by jumping through the hoops to get such a system installed in the near future: the concerned person who sees all the negatives of heating with oil, gas and electricity produced by one of those fuels and goes out on a limb to get certified in solid fuels, studies the requirements, makes the mistakes, OR the industries that would rather not see the oil/gas cash cows slip outside their grasp?

I was involved in the process for well over 100 installs and probably 1000 service calls in my previous employment. I CLAIM to be an idiot where hydronics are concerned. That said, in 75% of the basements we were in, the sophistication of most systems installed before 2000 was primitive. Yes, it can cost $22K to get a new system installed. But if it was installed by people who learned what they were doing in the 1960's and used equipment available in the 1990's, why would you expect miracles? Using modern stuff seems expensive, but when has it not? And if the payback is less than ten years and is better for the environment and the local economy, and you can service it yourself for the most part, what are you focused on? Pay the local installer, who has kids in your school district, rather than some conglomerate that wants you to be discouraged from buying an alternative product and sends its profits to an off-shore account.


Regards, all. .
 
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You lost me when you proposed the notion that something with a 10 year return on investment was a "good idea".

For what it's worth I'm glad to see you removed your first-draft. When you started bashing one particular political party it became pretty clear you were baiting the forum with this post. The boiler room is not the place for that (in my humble opinion).

And last, before you further pontificate about creating/maintaining jobs in your community with a plan like this you might want to attain some new/enhanced perspective. The evil "big oil" companies you vilify above employ hundreds of thousands of hard working Americans.
 
Stee, tell me where else I can get a secure 10% return on investment. I'm always amazed at how often we hear that ten years is "too long a payback" from the same people that have money "invested" in savings accounts, IRA's and mutual funds that are returning a fraction of that. Any insight appreciated.

Also, I take your point about the fossil fuel industry employing a lot of people, but I also know that when someone in NH spends a dollar on heating oil, eighty cents of that dollar leaves the state immediately and a lot of that eighty cents leaves the country. I think one of the big advantages to using wood and pellet fuels is that you are supporting your local economy. When someone in NH buys a ton of pellets, for example, almost all of that money goes to the loggers, truck drivers, the pellet mill and the local guy who delivers the pellets to the retail outlet or your home - all of whom are in NH. Seems like a better way to me.
 
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couldn't agree more with Chris on this particular topic.
karl
 
Stee, tell me where else I can get a secure 10% return on investment. I'm always amazed at how often we hear that ten years is "too long a payback" from the same people that have money "invested" in savings accounts, IRA's and mutual funds that are returning a fraction of that. Any insight appreciated.

You believe 10% earned per year returns 100% in 10 years? Yikes.

I hope you guys appreciate the irony that the boiler being referenced above by Buggy (the company he WORKS FOR) is manufactured in Austria. Where is the love for the US working man slaving away building Pellergy pellet boilers, fellas? What about our laborers over at Harman, my American brothers?

All in good fun, gentlemen. We all have decisions we have to make every day. I do what I can to keep my money local and I'll be the first to admit it's hard to do "the right thing" sometimes...
 
We paid the local guy a fair amount of money to install our pellet boiler and wouldn't you know, the price of oil plummets. Oh well. Having said that, I really could care less about "sustainability" or the "carbon footprint", but I strongly agree with Chris about having our fuel money remain in-state. Not just in the country, but in the state. No oil companies get our money, no sheiks, etc. I like it.
 
I guess Pellergy is covering its bets by offering what appears to be a rebranded Windhager. That's only if you want an auto clean pellet boiler.
http://www.pellergy.com/

It seems that Evoworld, originally Austrian, now building pellet and wood chip boilers in Troy, NY, might actually be offering units for sale: http://evoworldusa.com/
They were just starting up when I visited the factory in Troy, but maybe they're farther along now, though it's hard to tell.
 
I guess Pellergy is covering its bets by offering what appears to be a rebranded Windhager. That's only if you want an auto clean pellet boiler.
http://www.pellergy.com/

It seems that Evoworld, originally Austrian, now building pellet and wood chip boilers in Troy, NY, might actually be offering units for sale: http://evoworldusa.com/
They were just starting up when I visited the factory in Troy, but maybe they're farther along now, though it's hard to tell.

Yeah, I just got those off a quick Google search. I don't know anything about those companies. I was just enjoying the idea that this thread turned into an American Flag waving march against non-us spending in support of the original poster who is selling or installing.......Austrian made boilers.
 
I think a 10 year return amounts to about 7% interest per year.

Which still isn't all that bad I guess.

For what that is worth.

Carry on....
 
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