Creosote concerns with England Madison

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.
BeardedJon

BeardedJon

New Member
Jul 3, 2014
26
Farmland, Indiana
So I had my Madison installed a little over a month ago and we have been using it everyday since then.

Last night I go to build a fire with the coals and left the door cracked about an inch. I check on it a few minutes later and I have what sounds like sand or something similar falling lightly down the single wall pipe to the stove. I closed the door and it stops. Built my normal fire and the stove ran great all night.

This morning I put some kindling in with the coals and try the door cracked again to the same result. Close the door and the sound stops even with air open all the way. I can knock on the pipe with the door open and the falling sound intensifies. Is this creosote? I will be taking the pipe off the stove tonight to see what it looks like and until then I let the fire burn out and turned the furnace on. Can anyone shed some light on this?

17.5 feet of total pipe and it's about 6 feet of single wall into the chimney pipe. I burn mixed wood and only occasionally run across a piece that's wet. The only other things that ever get burned are newspaper, fire starter bricks, and a bunch of lady bugs hiding in the wood.
 
Hrmmm. To me it sounds like there's some flaky creosote falling. Is your stove pipe vertical? Or does it run through a wall?

Do you burn your fires hot or do they smolder?

Take your stove pipe off and give it a check. I always suggest cleaning out every 3/4-1 cord of wood burning for new burners. It will give you an idea what your pipe looks like after 1-2 months of burning.

Andrew
 
The pipe isvertical and I don't have fires that smolder, but my wife will on occasion as she shuts the air down too soon. We've gone through about a cord of wood so far.

So what should the inside of the pipe look like compared to what I don't want to see? By cleaning it do you mean sweeping the entire pipe by taking off the cap? Thanks.
 
Yes, sweep the entire thing.

Ideally you would see nothing. THe next best thing is to see doot: dry flakey brown/black stuff. The worse kind is a hardened glaze. Take a picture of what you see. I do not want to make you panic but 1 cord can cause a lot of buildup if not burned properly. What is your chimney setup?

How long was your wood cut/split/stacked?

Andrew
 
  • Like
Reactions: CenterTree
Ok that's about what I figured I could see. I won't be home until late tonight at take a look at it. Am I correct in thinking that any buildup would be worse towards the stove? If so then by pulling the pipe off the stove woukd I be able to get an idea of how bad the entire pipe is? I may be able to get a good friend to come sweep it today as I'd rather not mess with it in the dark.

What exactly so you mean by chimney setup? Our while setup was installed via contractor as I didn't have the time or experience to tackle it myself.

Wood has been spit and stacked for 1 to 2 years. I never have a prblem with getting a good hot fire and burning through all the wood.
 
normally the worse part for creosote builup is at the end of your chimney. Why? Because this is the point where the temperatures are the lowest. Hottest leaving the stove, coldest at the top of the chimney.

Do you have a Class A chimney outside or inside? How tall is your chimney setup?

Andrew
 
The class A chimney starts inside and extends up through the roof. I would have to measure how long the setup is. All together the entire pipe is 17.5 feet. Maybe 6 feet of single wall pipe inside going into the chimney.

I will try and check out the pipe tonight, but will probably let the stove sit until I'm off on Wednesday and can clean out the stove and pipe really good.
 
BeardedJon said:
Ok that's about what I figured I could see. I won't be home until late tonight at take a look at it. Am I correct in thinking that any buildup would be worse towards the stove? If so then by pulling the pipe off the stove woukd I be able to get an idea of how bad the entire pipe is? I may be able to get a good friend to come sweep it today as I'd rather not mess with it in the dark.

What exactly so you mean by chimney setup? Our while setup was installed via contractor as I didn't have the time or experience to tackle it myself.

Wood has been spit and stacked for 1 to 2 years. I never have a prblem with getting a good hot fire and burning through all the wood.
Click to expand...

If your wood is oak its not seasoned. If its anything els but ash, its sub optimal also. Most crosote problems come from fuel problems.
 
It's mixed wood and I'm not sure what all it is. I know there is some ash, walnut, and cedar. I have some pine and cottonwood that I use for starating fires.

Some of the wood I cut myself and some I purchase. A neighbor has a tree cutting business. He splits all the wood and leaves it in giant piles and rotates through them to sell them. He says usually the wood is sitting for 1 to 2 years.

Like I said the wood may not be the best, but I have only ever had a couple pieces that didn't burn good. I can go from coals to a roaring fire easily on an hour and burn through the wood really good with coals up to 10 hours later.
 
BeardedJon said:
It's mixed wood and I'm not sure what all it is. I know there is some ash, walnut, and cedar. I have some pine and cottonwood that I use for starating fires.

Some of the wood I cut myself and some I purchase. A neighbor has a tree cutting business. He splits all the wood and leaves it in giant piles and rotates through them to sell them. He says usually the wood is sitting for 1 to 2 years.....

.
Click to expand...
Hardwoods are not going to be well seasoned if they were sitting in giant piles for a year.
Do you have a moisture meter? Try one, it helps.

Maybe the noise you hear is just those ladybugs.;lol
 
No I don't have a moisture meter or I'd tell you what the moisture content is. I plan on b picking one up at some point.

My wood may not greatest, but it's what I have until the wood I cut seasons. I have to make do for now and besides this, the wood has done great.

Now that I know there may be buildup, I will clean everything and post some pictures this week.

I try to know most of the ladybugs off, but they are all over my woodshed.
 
Taking an hour from coals to a roaring fire in a warm stove is a clue that the wood is too moist. That stuff should take off within a couple of minutes on hot coals.
 
I can go from coals and a house at 67 to 68 to a roaring fire with the house at 71 or 72 within an hour at the most. The wood catches quickly and a fire gets built up.

Like I already mentioned, the wood is what I have for now. I was looking for input on the sound from the pipe and possible buildup of creosote. I will post here once I get time to clean the pipe.
 
BeardedJon said:
I can go from coals and a house at 67 to 68 to a roaring fire with the house at 71 or 72 within an hour at the most. The wood catches quickly and a fire gets built up.

Like I already mentioned, the wood is what I have for now. I was looking for input on the sound from the pipe and possible buildup of creosote. I will post here once I get time to clean the pipe.
Click to expand...

No worries. I understand that you're stuck with wood. But speaking from experience, wood that sits in piles does not season. Trust me, I learned the hard way.

Let us know what you find!!

Andrew
 
Do you have a thermometer on the stove? What temp is normal running for it? How often is your wife running the stove and for how long? My wife runs the stove a lot cooler than I run and and never wants to put in more than 3 splits, so I start up in the morning with a good hot fire and let the pipe get up to 800F for 15-30 minutes.

We also have double-wall connector that helps keep the flue warmer. Check the single wall pipe and flue collar for air leaks. Tiny gaps are ok, but if they are 1/16 to 1/8" fill them with furnace cement.
 
Certainly sounds like you are hearing creosote breaking loose from the sides of your stove pipe and falling down. When you open the door to the stove and the air rushes in you get a big draft and that is probably what is causing the sound you are hearing. Even if the door is closed if you put on your hearth gloves and tap the sides of your vertical stove pipe a few feet above your stove you'll likely hear it cascade down. One of the dangers with this type of falling creosote is that it can build up in an elbow near the top of the stove (if there is one) and since that area gets very hot very quick it can fire off starting a chimney fire. All of the chimney fires I've experienced started that way. If you don't have an elbow coming off the back of your stove and are running a pipe straight up from the top, then you need to consider where this creosote is falling inside the stove.
 
I had the same experience with my Madison, about 1-1.5 months after starting burning also. Really scared me, as I sure don't want a chimney fire, and my wood is all below 25%. Needless to say, I pulled the stovepipe off that night after it had cooled off to see what I could see. What I found was only very small bits of creosote stuck here and there to the side of the pipe/chimney (all light brown/grey color) and some tiny pieces that had apparently broke off and came down and were on top of the fiber board in the stove. At that point, I was still waiting on my chimney cleaning kit, and it really didn't look bad enough to clean anyway, so I vacuumed out the top of the fiber board, put it all back together, and have heard nothing since. That was my experience, but I do strongly urge you to pull it apart and check it. Only took me an hour or so, taking my time.
 
Last edited:
I had the same experience with my old epa tube stove, I sounded on start up like something was falling, the next day I was on the roof looking down the chimney pipe (all fuel triple wall) The really wasn't anything in there, I made a new fire, heard the same thing, turns out it was the sudden high heat expanding the single wall pipe.
 
Sound of Rice Krispies falling down the stove pipe . . . very good chance this is the sound of creosote breaking loose. Time to inspect and clean if needed.
 
Ok I took the pipe attached to and just above the stove off for a quick look for now. It was definitely creosote that I heard. The pipe all the way to the cap looks to be covered in a layer of flaky cteosote. It does easily come off so I will clean it this week when I'm off work.

Is this amount of creosote to be expected, or is this worse than it should be?
 

Attachments

  • 20141207_194708.jpg
    20141207_194708.jpg
    173.4 KB · Views: 258
Looks like it has been burning cool. There would be almost none if the flue was warmer. What temperatures are you folks running your Madisons at?
 
Yes, if the stove is not run hot enough the internal flue temps can drop below the condensation temp for creosote. Generally, until the wood is in the coals stage you want the flue to be at least 250F. A higher flue temp is better if the connector is single wall or the flue system is very tall.
 
I installed my Madison about 6 weeks ago and have gone through a little more than a facecord. Mostly standing dead stuff or really dry old splits. My first year so my supply isn't impressive. I have 5 feet of double wall to 9 feet of triple wall. I decided to clean just to see what's going on, upon cleaning I got less than a tablespoon of creosote form the triple wall which I was very happy with.

Fast forward to me getting off vacation and my wife not wanting to be cold, she has been running the stove for a few days. I work 24 hours shifts at the fire department so it's all hers. First day she did fine but the next day the window turned 2/3 black, she knew she made a mistake. I noticed the same exact noise that the original poster mentioned after she did that. I will clean tomorrow and report back with my findings.

When I'm home I burn between 500-600 stove top measured above the door on the left side, never any smoke coming from the chimney.
 
Sounds like you could use a Sooteater. Bottom up cleaning takes about 15 minutes. No need to get on the roof.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

N
Embers in flue elbow
Replies
1
Views
405
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
begreen
begreen
V
Chimney length and creosote buildup. Longer pipe = more creosote?
Replies
10
Views
800
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
voland
V
High Desert Dennis
A Question on Cold-Starting a Fully Loaded Stove
Replies
32
Views
3K
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
Caw
Caw
Bill in the U.P.
Sounds of stuff falling inside chimney
Replies
18
Views
1K
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
Bill in the U.P.
Bill in the U.P.
W
Draft problems?
Replies
48
Views
2K
The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces
ctreitzell
ctreitzell
Top Bottom
Back